Transmission

[Guest 1930]

One thing that is particularly intriguing to me at this point is Graham Bros. D.B transmissions.

When did they go astray from the standard commercial car tranny and start using a heavier version and whom manufactured this heavier version. I am at this point considering the late 1926 / early 27 introduction of the 3/4 ton unit as the point in time when they began using this heavier unit but am still working on absolute confirmation of this.

I know that it was late 27 that Graham adopted the 4 speed tranny ( with wider fatter gears ) with the integration of the 6 cyl engine but I do believe there was an earlier 3 speed heavy transmission.

I am at this point compiling facts surrounding this.

If anyone has anything they can add to this please do so, thanks

[stakeside]

Jason-

My transmission for my 29 DB 3/4 tn is a Warner Gear Co. of Muncie Ind. Chould be associated with Muncie I would guess. No part number on trans but T71-1A. There are matching number on the clutch and brake pedsls.

Checkout my dissusion with 30crysler in the "Dodge Trucks form #26".Mine appears to be the same as the one in the forum pictures.

[Guest 1930]

Yes, this is a good start, thanks but where do you see the T71- 1A, I guess I will have to go back to the post you mentioned but I dont remember seeing it there even though I looked

[stakeside]

Re: 3/4 ton DB parts list book<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

<HR SIZE=1><!-- google_ad_section_start -->See this tread and note numbers on the pedal arm and the the trans case.

"here are some photos of the transmission. the diameter where it meets the flywheel housing is about 15". the clutch photo is of a victory six. the trans fits this motor as well".<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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[1936 D2]

# is in the shadow of the pedal arm on the case side. Really hard to see. Have to blow it up, yet still hard to see because of the shadow.

[stakeside]

My 29 DB series "E" 3/4 ton has these numbers on the pedal arms attached to my clutch housing. They are 522178 located on both clutch and brake pedals. The "Master Parts List" has a 522180 listed fo the DA-120 and DA-124. I could not find any other numbers on the clutch housing. The U-124 is listed as 522795 in the "master parts list. I could not make out the number shown in preveious photos. Could I get those numbers?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

30Chrysler responded "If your talking about the number on the pedal arm in that picture I believe it's 527484.

[30DodgePanel]

My 29 DB series "E" 3/4 ton has these numbers on the pedal arms attached to my clutch housing. They are 522178 located on both clutch and brake pedals. The "Master Parts List" has a 522180 listed fo the DA-120 and DA-124. I could not find any other numbers on the clutch housing. The U-124 is listed as 522795 in the "master parts list. I could not make out the number shown in preveious photos. Could I get those numbers?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

30Chrysler responded "If your talking about the number on the pedal arm in that picture I believe it's 527484.

Sorry it took so long to respond I haven't had a chance to look into this until recently.

These are a list of parts numbers I found on my transmission in the photos above. Still trying to confirm it to be time period correct for my 1930 3/4 ton panel.

Clutch pedal is 527484 with an "E" in a diamond (confirmed for the 3/4 ton version in both the MPB and the 3/4 ton Parts books I have for DA-124" WB)

Brake pedal is 527485 also with an "E" (cannot locate this number in any of my months of research. Looked into several original MPB's 2 ton, 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and Merchant Express as well but cannot find it anywhere I've looked)

The number in the shadow is T71-1A

The side cover part is T71-160 with a "C" on the opposite side

The top shifter housing has T69-148 on the front top portion with 2-12-30 on the back top (a date code possibly?)

Inside the clutch housing across the bottom of the pinion bearing retainer is T71 6-14-29 with a number stamp of 1 1/2 to the right. Also on the upper left of that retainer as your looking into the clutch housing is T71-6 with an "L" inside a diamond. I'm making note of the diamonds because I'm sure they will be useful to someone.

The MPB I have is an original Canadian and US made trucks Final Edition July 1934 so it should be complete but I have encountered some errors and questions. Regardless, in the MPB I have it shows a part number of 522861 for the Transmission Case for DA-120 U-124 D-124.

I'm still looking for the part number #522861 on the transmission case itself and I'm guessing that will lead to other clues to help in the original posters search. Everything else has a number on it so I'm sure it's there somewhere, I just have to locate it.

Sherman, I know it's been a while but do you recall where you located the part # 522180 on the clutch housing ?

Jason,

Don't know much about the transition but, I'm sure if we keep digging well find the answer that your looking for. Do you have any updates on this topic you can share ?

[Guest 1930]

Cannot even remember where I left off.

Its tough to put anything together ( outside of what can be found within literature ) concerning these Graham trucks when you are working with less than a handful of people that have their own agendas and these agendas rarely correspond with my own.

Its been so long since I started this post I coudnt even remember what my own original agenda was until I went back to read it! :eek:

[stakeside]

Sorry it took so long to respond I haven't had a chance to look into this until recently.

These are a list of parts numbers I found on my transmission in the photos above. Still trying to confirm it to be time period correct for my 1930 3/4 ton panel.

Clutch pedal is 527484 with an "E" in a diamond (confirmed for the 3/4 ton version in both the MPB and the 3/4 ton Parts books I have for DA-124" WB)

Brake pedal is 527485 also with an "E" (cannot locate this number in any of my months of research. Looked into several original MPB's 2 ton, 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and Merchant Express as well but cannot find it anywhere I've looked)

The number in the shadow is T71-1A

The side cover part is T71-160 with a "C" on the opposite side

The top shifter housing has T69-148 on the front top portion with 2-12-30 on the back top (a date code possibly?)

Inside the clutch housing across the bottom of the pinion bearing retainer is T71 6-14-29 with a number stamp of 1 1/2 to the right. Also on the upper left of that retainer as your looking into the clutch housing is T71-6 with an "L" inside a diamond. I'm making note of the diamonds because I'm sure they will be useful to someone.

The MPB I have is an original Canadian and US made trucks Final Edition July 1934 so it should be complete but I have encountered some errors and questions. Regardless, in the MPB I have it shows a part number of 522861 for the Transmission Case for DA-120 U-124 D-124.

I'm still looking for the part number #522861 on the transmission case itself and I'm guessing that will lead to other clues to help in the original posters search. Everything else has a number on it so I'm sure it's there somewhere, I just have to locate it.

Sherman, I know it's been a while but do you recall where you located the part # 522180 on the clutch housing ?

Jason,

Don't know much about the transition but, I'm sure if we keep digging well find the answer that your looking for. Do you have any updates on this topic you can share ?

I did not find any other destination than the T71 I believe. I did not find a 522180.

.

[30DodgePanel]

I did not find any other destination than the T71 I believe. I did not find a 522180.

.

Ok, thanks.

Looks to be the same tranny but I'm not so sure. Did your tranny come from a 124 or off the 120"wb parts truck you had ? Both are 3 speeds but the DA-120 is a different 3 speed than the U-124 and the DA-124 see pages T-21-A and T-21-B in the MPB

By the way, your date code for that part in the photo is in the middle portion between the T71 and the 1 1/2 on the left incase your having trouble finding it.

Edited January 23, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[stakeside]

Ok, thanks.

Looks to be the same tranny but I'm not so sure. Did your tranny come from a 124 or off the 120"wb parts truck you had ? Both are 3 speeds but the DA-120 is a different 3 speed than the U-124 and the DA-124 see pages T-21-A and T-21-B in the MPB

By the way, your date code for that part in the photo is in the middle portion between the T71 and the 1 1/2 on the left incase your having trouble finding it.

The trans was with my original engine # H79xxx and frame S 114xxx. This was a early "E" series.

I only have extra engine and attached bell housing.

What is your frame #? Do have any pictures of your truck to post?

[30DodgePanel]

frame number is 231751 for photos see my gallery or go to the Dodge photos at the top of the forum.

So we have the same exact 3 speed trans with different part numbers on the brake and clutch levers. Hmm

[stakeside]

I believe this should be D231751 chassis or a Detroit build.

Where are you located? Iam in Sacramento area.

[stakeside]

My 29 DB series "E" 3/4 ton has these numbers on the pedal arms attached to my clutch housing. They are 522178 located on both clutch and brake pedals. The "Master Parts List" has a 522180 listed fo the DA-120 and DA-124. I could not find any other numbers on the clutch housing. The U-124 is listed as 522795 in the "master parts list. I could not make out the number shown in preveious photos. Could I get those numbers?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

30Chrysler responded "If your talking about the number on the pedal arm in that picture I believe it's 527484.

I was mistaken. The numbers were 522178 and 522179.

[30DodgePanel]

I was mistaken. The numbers were 522178 and 522179.

I'm still not showing a listing for either one of those parts. Did you find a listing for them that confirms they are for the truck applications ? If so, where did you locate it ?

if not I wonder if they may have came from a car application at one point and transferred over to the truck trans ?

I don't have any DB car literature but I believe others do and may be able to help in that regards.

[stakeside]

Remember "it is what it is" with these trucks.

I Believe those pedals are original to my truck.

i found that the Master Parts book shows little reference to my DE model. This my be since it was a reborn Graham.

I was only able to find a few reference to DE model.

[30DodgePanel]

It's funny, this is EXACTLY the type of scenario I was thinking of when I made the hefty purchase of that original "Final Edition" MPB months ago. My reasoning behind reaching to pay for it was that "the information was surely more complete than any other publication for these trucks " but that obviously has proven to be wrong. Still glad I bought because of the Canadian and RHD info it has in it but the missing pieces of information are puzzling to say the least.

But I believe your right, the pedals are more than likely original to your truck, just wish we could find that number and more info on the DE. The DA-120 falls right below that number range, it's 522177 so where did the 78 and 79 go and why is there no mention. Like you say, it is what it is and I'm sure it had to do with that grey area of the transition period.

[Guest 1930]

You guys do what you want, your business and none of mine but it is what it is is just not enough for someone that has a strong interest for the answers. They CAN be found!

522178 is a Brake pedal assy for the DA-120 truck

I have to do something else today so I cant try and find the other numbers right now

Edited January 25, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Look at this guy.. ! Just when I think your done with the museum of literature you flaunt another good one.

Cover please ! LOL

when you get time that is.

So Stakesides tranny was a 3/4 but the DA-120 version in the DE series. Nice

[Guest 1930]

Seems there was a question/post here that I started to look into, I come back and its gone, was their a discrepancy or not?

Edited January 25, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[Guest 1930]

Sorry it took so long to respond I haven't had a chance to look into this until recently.

These are a list of parts numbers I found on my transmission in the photos above. Still trying to confirm it to be time period correct for my 1930 3/4 ton panel.

Clutch pedal is 527484 with an "E" in a diamond (confirmed for the 3/4 ton version in both the MPB and the 3/4 ton Parts books I have for DA-124" WB)

Brake pedal is 527485 also with an "E" (cannot locate this number in any of my months of research. Looked into several original MPB's 2 ton, 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton and Merchant Express as well but cannot find it anywhere I've looked)

The number in the shadow is T71-1A

The side cover part is T71-160 with a "C" on the opposite side

The top shifter housing has T69-148 on the front top portion with 2-12-30 on the back top (a date code possibly?)

Inside the clutch housing across the bottom of the pinion bearing retainer is T71 6-14-29 with a number stamp of 1 1/2 to the right. Also on the upper left of that retainer as your looking into the clutch housing is T71-6 with an "L" inside a diamond. I'm making note of the diamonds because I'm sure they will be useful to someone.

The MPB I have is an original Canadian and US made trucks Final Edition July 1934 so it should be complete but I have encountered some errors and questions. Regardless, in the MPB I have it shows a part number of 522861 for the Transmission Case for DA-120 U-124 D-124.

I'm still looking for the part number #522861 on the transmission case itself and I'm guessing that will lead to other clues to help in the original posters search. Everything else has a number on it so I'm sure it's there somewhere, I just have to locate it.

Sherman, I know it's been a while but do you recall where you located the part # 522180 on the clutch housing ?

Jason,

Don't know much about the transition but, I'm sure if we keep digging well find the answer that your looking for. Do you have any updates on this topic you can share ?

Index goes from 527484 then to 486 and then 487, no 485 so I looked it up the backward way. 484 is the clutch pedal, 486 is rad shutter supthin or other and 527487 is your brake pedal assy. I would guess that the three models were not all released at the same time, I would say that the last model to be released needed a brake pedal but maybe there was something slightly different about what was needed and what was being used on the previous models listed.

I would guess that it was determined that this slight change in part would not affect how the pedal functioned within the older trucks if it were needed and so with this up-dated/changed part they had to assign a new part # that would supersede the old part #.

Maybe a supplier was changed as well so with a new supplier the # had to be changed. Its anyones guess I suppose.

[30DodgePanel]

Seems there was a question/post here that I started to look into, I come back and its gone, was their a discrepancy or not?

Yes there was a discrepancy but I think I got doing to many things at the same time and accidently deleted it. Having problems on this site at times, seems to lock up in the middle of my posting.

Edit again !: ::

Went and double checked my brake pedal number. It is the 485

Edited January 25, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[stakeside]

Jason have you seen any reference to the "DE" model in your parts book? I noticed no reference to the DE model on your page that you posted. It may be the DA-120 and DE shared the same chassis and running gear.

Are there different parts reference manuals? The page you show has a different format than my parts book.

I find some references. In particular "INTAKE AND EXHAUST MANIFOLD" . The # is 40510. This matches the # on my manifold.

Thanks you all for your research.

[30DodgePanel]

When did they go astray from the standard commercial car tranny and start using a heavier version and whom manufactured this heavier version. I am at this point considering the late 1926 / early 27 introduction of the 3/4 ton unit as the point in time when they began using this heavier unit but am still working on absolute confirmation of this.

I know that it was late 27 that Graham adopted the 4 speed tranny ( with wider fatter gears ) with the integration of the 6 cyl engine but I do believe there was an earlier 3 speed heavy transmission.

If I understand this correctly your trying to determine when the heavier 3 speed first came into the picture and on what models. Is that a fair assessment ?

According to the MPB the first sign of the 4 speed was as you know in the following series on page T-21-C. Finding out which one of those models was the first one to use the 4 speed should lead you in the right direction. And in regards to the 4 speeds I would think we can discount the DA's and the U along with the F series as being the first ones to use it. I believe you can look to the ED, LD, JD, YD, MD, OD TD, BE, IE, LE, ME, JE, and YE all under part 511003 for the transmission case part number.

So that tells me we should then turn our attention to the prior models mentioned. The BD, DDT, and ID all of them are as you said 3/4 tons. I would think we can discount all the other ones and look to those 3 models for concentration and if it proves us wrong then we go from there.

Just my way of thinking, but I don't know exactly what your trying to ultimately achieve which may change the approach you decide to take.

[Guest 1930]

Jason have you seen any reference to the "DE" model in your parts book? I noticed no reference to the DE model on your page that you posted. It may be the DA-120 and DE shared the same chassis and running gear.

Are there different parts reference manuals? The page you show has a different format than my parts book.

I find some references. In particular "INTAKE AND EXHAUST MANIFOLD" . The # is 40510. This matches the # on my manifold.

Thanks you all for your research.

This is going to take some time to try and once again ( on my end, not your fault ) look into. I have plans for today but will try and get to it tomm at latest.

[Guest 1930]

If I understand this correctly your trying to determine when the heavier 3 speed first came into the picture and on what models. Is that a fair assessment ?

According to the MPB the first sign of the 4 speed was as you know in the following series on page T-21-C. Finding out which one of those models was the first one to use the 4 speed should lead you in the right direction. And in regards to the 4 speeds I would think we can discount the DA's and the U along with the F series as being the first ones to use it. I believe you can look to the ED, LD, JD, YD, MD, OD TD, BE, IE, LE, ME, JE, and YE all under part 511003 for the transmission case part number.

So that tells me we should then turn our attention to the prior models mentioned. The BD, DDT, and ID all of them are as you said 3/4 tons. I would think we can discount all the other ones and look to those 3 models for concentration and if it proves us wrong then we go from there.

Just my way of thinking, but I don't know exactly what your trying to ultimately achieve which may change the approach you decide to take.

Thanks for your speculation, will take all into account, I will try and re-group and I look forward to your follow up response once I have had time to make mine.

[Guest 1930]

Jason have you seen any reference to the "DE" model in your parts book? I noticed no reference to the DE model on your page that you posted. It may be the DA-120 and DE shared the same chassis and running gear.

Are there different parts reference manuals? The page you show has a different format than my parts book.

I find some references. In particular "INTAKE AND EXHAUST MANIFOLD" . The # is 40510. This matches the # on my manifold.

Thanks you all for your research.

Here is what I am finding out

1-Both of your frames Serial numbers S 1141339 ( the one that was original under your truck but was destroyed ) and frame # S 114139 ( the frame/chassis that you have for spare and are using in place of the destroyed frame ) are in fact the same frames that would have carried the same DA power plant as per service bulletin D-58 Oct 17 1930.

You mentioned the second frame as year sold 11/17/1931, maybe it was a hold over, but more than likely this date is a little off.

Engine # H79864 ( I am assuming this is the engine you are using in your truck ) was a late 28/very early DA powerplant manufactured prior t 12/31/28.

Engine # H88314 ( spare engine ) was manufactured prob. in the 3rd or 4th month of 1929

We can speculate that your truck was manufactured sometime after Jan 1929, hence the D.B nameplates on radiator and the fact that same service bulletin mentioned above states that starting at frame no D-204872, E-142779, S-112798 trucks built with these DA powerplants are to use the new form of Chrysler Motors Parts Corporation parts list manufactured Oct 1 1929. ........I do not have this manual, I thought I did but do not, I have two of the prior version which you say you already have and which we discussed on an earlier post.

You have said/shown me body plate found under drivers door reads 120 W.B and DE as model

Service bulletin D-48 dated Sept 1930 = identification of D.B trucks = stamped on Frame L side front and a small car number plate fastened inside of cab. ...........Note it specifies D.B, not Graham, maybe it is implied G.B. I am sure that by this point D.B corp would not give even a second thought to have excluded any mention of Graham.

DE/DEW/ model introduced by Graham approx June 20 1928, major difference between trucks were tire size, both carried the Victory six engine, both Victory six and your DA engines carried the same bore and stroke of 3 3/8 3 7/8.

DEF model reported Oct 15 1928 and again major change was wheel/tire

April of 1929 or 4 months into the changeover from the Graham nameplates to the new D.B nameplates will be the last month these three trucks used the model designations of DE, DEF/DEW from this point on they were just Dodge Brothers 120 inch 3/4 ton model trucks to the consumer according to period trade publications.

As early as March of 1929 ( I cannot find a Jan or Feb. ) Dodge truck salesman's booklets did not list the trucks by anything other than Dodge Brothers 3/4 ton 120 inch W.B.

EDIT: I have found a Jan of 1929 Dodge trucks commercial cars sales booklet and they do list them still as DE, DEW,DEF

Maybe I can find a Feb. This shows a pretty good timeline though of D.B Corp phasing out the old Graham way of labeling their products.

I was at one point working on a quick synopsis of this phasing out and re-establishment of sizes/designations but could not figure out how to compile it in a shrunken dialogue.

Needless to say it was during this time period that Grahams large line of truck for every worker was cut down to the basics.

BTW these trucks could be ordered cowl only, cowl pillar assy or as a complete unit which is the reason we see variances of body panels/window openings ect. They could be made any way to order and built by Graham or an aftermarket coach builder could add on to what was there.

I dont know if you realize it but Rad. shutters were standard on all model trucks ( when considering at least your specific time frame ) excluding 1/2 ton merchant express. Do you have shutters? Ok I think I do see them on one of your pictures.

See photos below of your truck/chassis, I can no longer scan the original pages because of their condition but I can take digital photos if you would like originals.

Sept of 1929 these three models in this weight class were no longer reported as being available to the public according to period publications.

In their place new models were released as the Dodge Brothers U 124 W.B, the DA 124 W.B.

You had asked about the DA-120......I believe at this point that this is once again another error within the 34 MPB and other later serial number guides that were published prob. using the MPB as a guide.

You will notice that you never see mention anywhere within the MPB identification pages/serial number guide of the DE, DEF, DEW model, wouldn't it be ridiculous ( especially considering the cut-back of models for D.B during this time ) to have offered two separate models with the identical W.B and drivetrain?

I believe that whomever compiled the data used the DA-120 as a way of identifying all these prior models with the 120 inch W.B. as well.

Within the part book they show a separation of the models, I only looked up the manifold you mentioned but I believe this would have been better clarification for anyone ordering parts that the part was intended for the same vehicle. They should have ( unless I am mistaken) shown the DE model within the serial number guide and should have shown up until what serial number that they decided to no longer use its original identification but we can all see just how not important it was for Chrysler to make all of this clear for us.

I believe that when you see the model DA-120 within the serial number guides that you are in fact supposed to use that to identify your earlier 120 inch W.B DE, DEW and DEF truck.

Quote:Are there different parts reference manuals? The page you show has a different format than my parts book.

Yes, I am working from many different books, so many that just to get the response you see above is an accumulation of no less than 10 ( a little more ) hours sifting thru books/literature. If I knew better where to look or what to look for than it would not take me so long.

Every time I am given the opportunity though to answer questions I get faster at finding the answers and I look forward to any corrections or additions/notations.

Edited January 28, 2013 by 1930 (see edit history)

[30DodgePanel]

Incredible work Jason, great explanation too ! Thats alot to chew on for sure, there is some very good meat in there.

I know this is selfish but is there any photos of the 1/2 - 3/4 ton Panels in there ? Especially interested the DA-124 obviously. No rush as I know thats not the intention of this thread but I am curious to know what you have found in regards to original illustrations of any of the Panels since there has been so little discussion and information available for them over the years.

Thanks again for taking the time to help us guys in the truck community.

[Guest 1930]

Incredible work Jason, great explanation too ! Thats alot to chew on for sure, there is some very good meat in there.

I know this is selfish but is there any photos of the 1/2 - 3/4 ton Panels in there ? Especially interested the DA-124 obviously. No rush as I know thats not the intention of this thread but I am curious to know what you have found in regards to original illustrations of any of the Panels since there has been so little discussion and information available for them over the years.

Thanks again for taking the time to help us guys in the truck community.

AH, DA 124, is that what you have? Not being sarcastic or a smartass, I did not remember. I am sure there is something, start a new thread. I am hoping to pick up on this trans discussion later this evening. You should re-iterate what we came up with before as far as prod. date, serial numbers ect, that took a large amount of time for me too try and find all of Stakesides stats.

[stakeside]

Thanks Jason. I will review and comment when I digest it all.

My parts truck is S 115179 and original truck is S 114139. The 11/17/31 truck may then be a DEF since it has cast iron spoke 20" tires and heavy duty 10 leave rear springs. It also had a more streamlined headlight. All I have for the body of later truck is the firewall.

The original truck S 114139 has rad shutters and they are vertical. They were badly damaged in the earlier accident. The shutters I have now are horizontal and the carry the GB logo. I found them at a swap meet in Yuba City Ca for 5 bucks.

The last picture is a match to what mine will be. A stake side flatbed.

Thanks again. Lots of knowledge.

[Guest 1930]

Thanks Jason. I will review and comment when I digest it all.

My parts truck is S 115179 and original truck is S 114139. The 11/17/31 truck may then be a DEF since it has cast iron spoke 20" tires and heavy duty 10 leave rear springs. It also had a more streamlined headlight. All I have for the body of later truck is the firewall.

The original truck S 114139 has rad shutters and they are vertical. They were badly damaged in the earlier accident. The shutters I have now are horizontal and the carry the GB logo. I found them at a swap meet in Yuba City Ca for 5 bucks.

The last picture is a match to what mine will be. A stake side flatbed.

Thanks again. Lots of knowledge.

Ok good, look forward to what you can say

[30DodgePanel]

Here is what I am finding out

Yes, I am working from many different books, so many that just to get the response you see above is an accumulation of no less than 10 ( a little more ) hours sifting thru books/literature. If I knew better where to look or what to look for than it would not take me so long.

Wow.....

I hope you all realize what he has done here and what he is saying.

Truely an incredibly informative post if you read it in it's entirety ( post #27 ). I've been searching for months for some of the things he's outlined here.

Thanks for taking the time Jason. Thats very good of you to do.

Dave

Edited January 29, 2013 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)