Missing ID Tag

[tfee]

I was watching a Packard on eBay a few weeks ago but was scared off from bidding when it was discovered that the car had no VIN tag on the firewall (however it was stamped with a large serial number). On a modern car this condition would generate quite a lot of suspicion. In this case it sounds like the previous owner had died in mid-restoration and the new owners were unable to find the tag amongst the boxes of parts that were not already attached to the car. I'm sure it isn't the first time this has happened and I'm now wondering if there isn't someone out there who reproduces these tags. Certainly one could have one made if one isn't already being manufactured however I doubt it would fool anyone being all new and shiny. In your opinion, should this car now be used only for it's parts or would you would you have a new vin tag made? Would you then artificially age it or would you leave it as new? Legally speaking, I doubt that the car has any value now other than parts?

[mrpushbutton]

Dave is right, the number stamped on the firewall is Packard's "theft-proof" number, and is not proper to use for any form of titling. What year Packard is this? Many cars, from the 20s thru the late 40s Bathubs used a plate that can be bought easily, Pulfer and Williams used to make/sell them, the company has been sold, perhaps someone here knows the new owner of that business. They are usually stamped with tool stamps, some are engraved, but that's over doing it. Starting with the 1941 Clipper, Briggs mfg. started making Packard bodies, and after the war, with the loss of the senior body dies due to improper storage, leaving the Clipper as the only body, Briggs became the sole maker of Packard bodies. They used a bright metal stamped tag on the inside front left door jamb. This continued through the 1956 model run.

Those numbers are (typically) the year-model four digit number, a dash- then the serial number, my car is 5687-4XXX (the Xs are numbers, I'm being coy), the earlier models differed in their numbering. Regardless of what car you own, you owe it to yourself to study how that particular year/model is properly numbered.

Having said all that, and having worked in two large collections with over 200 antique cars in each, I have seen everything used to ID cars on titles. Casting numbers on blocks. Engine numbers, frame numbers, the serial number off the generator ID tag--'cause it was easy. Packards seem to suffer the worst in all this, mainly due to the presence of the theft-proof numbers. It was a headache each time we sold a group of cars, or transffered titles.

As far as reproduction tags, with the exception of the black photo-etched plates I discussed above, I pray no one ever replicates the Briggs-style tags. Someone does this for Chrysler vehicles now, and it has been a boon to the counterfit muscle car "Industry", there are more big-block E-Body Mopars then ever before, you never see one with a slant-6, and there were many made. Want a B-body with a Hemi? they will make it for you, and the self-appointed "expert" will probably bless it.

[tfee]

The car is a 1930, it has an engine number and a chassis number listed in the description but the car does not have a title so whatever number was used to title it originally has been lost to time. I don't think the car is stolen but you can't really know for sure can you?

[tfee]

P.S. The engine is not original, it is from a 1929

[mrpushbutton]

In Michigan you have to do a title search, You take the car to a police department, they have an officer look at the physical serial number on the car and then they put that verified serial number of the car into the Secretary of State (=DMV in Michigan) 's computer and see if anything comes up as it being stolen. If not, they issue a replacement title. It is a legal title, but says "Replacement" all over it. I suppose the car could be sold, a title transfer could occur, especially ot of state then it's just a title after that. Maybe.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Laws very in each state, so it may make sense for you to research what your state requires in order to register a car; for example in CT I believe about half the Model A Fords in the state are registered by engine #, the other half by the "VIN" stamped on the frame which was never really intended to be a VIN at all. Confusion due in part to the fact that CT is a bill of sale only state after a certain age, and in the old days the cars were registered by engine number - it is still on the paperwork and the books in a lot of instances here. Point of the story is you should see how picky your state is and go from there. Most states have some provision, seller's affidavit, etc. to allow registration in difficult cases but if you know it will be a hassle going into it you may want to factor that into the buying decision.

[tfee]

Thanks for the information gentleman but I have moved on and actually purchased a bit of a hybrid Packard. It's a 1930 Packard 733 Club Sedan so says the seller but it appears to have been a full sedan at one time. Very curious.

[Guest John_Lawrence]

Interesting comment by tfee about his recently purchased 733 Club Sedan that appears to have been a full sedan. Here is my question: Did Packard simply fill in the window area of the touring sedans to make club sedans? I have seen this on a senior pre-war Cadillac limosine where the window area in back of the door was filled in to provide more privacy to the rear occupants. This was done at the factory, and lots of lead was used. Anyone?

[Earl B.]

If you'll look at the profile of a club sedan and a touring sedan, you'll see the club sedan body is shorter. It was not a fill in job. The club sedan was a separate and different body totally....B