bumper clamps

[Guest 1930]

I am hoping that someone with a DA can confirm one of these clamps as correct for the car. I am going to attempt to cast these and am hoping for good results but am confused on which might be correct or if they are all correct. The face bar clamp on the far left is on loan to me from another D.B and this is what he on his bumper but the one next to it is from my bumper and there is quite a variation in size although the parts book says that there is only one front and rear. I am wondering if the larger one to the left is a repro because although it is larger than mine it feels lighter. Also the crease in the middle of the plate on the right is not nearly as sharp as mine. Some measurements if possible of someone elses would be great.

Even more confusing is the backer plates, the parts book lists two styles, one for the paraguard rear bumper and one for the fullguard, (paraguard meaning split bumper ) and ( fullguard meaning all the way acroos ) The one again on the left is possibly I am thinking for a paraguard and the one on the right I thought to have confirmed in the past as a fullguard rear or front plate.

I need to start this work but am trying to confirm first what I have here to work with, I know there are only a few DA members on this site but I am sure that we can figure this out together. Thanks

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Jason, I was just going to email you on this discovery, and I see you already posted here. So for the benefit of others interested in the subject, I'm posting some pics of the bumper medallion and backers from my 1929 DA Deluxe Sedan. This car has the full rear bumper and now I believe the medallions and backers are correct for that vehicle since both the F & R are identical and this car is very original, except for the paint. The rectangular shaped backer which I sent you is from the split rear bumper and most likely is correct for that one. But as I told you, the square shaped backer makes the whole arrangement fit much better than the football shaped ones. Also attached are some photos of my collection of backers front and back.

Perhaps John Keiser31 would like to chime in here cause I believe he has a post on the subject, too.

[keiser31]

I know more about the '31 DHs, but have seen a few DAs that have the rectangular backer plate. The football shaped ones are mostly on the DHs, DGs, DLs and DKs (from what I have already seen in person). I do know that during the years from 1929 through 1932, Dodge and Chrysler used "what was on the shelf" a lot of times which is why everyone thinks that theirs is original. It may very well have come from the factory that way, but it was the depression and they used whatever they could use to get a car ready to sell or to complete an order. The football item fits better with the shape of the DH, DG, DL and DK clamps than with the rectangular clamp. Here are the '31 DH parts.

[keiser31]

This is the rear of the DH clamp. There is also a pressed steel version in which the bolt head fits.

[Guest 1930]

John I have always wanted to say that I think your medallions are real nice, elegant. Thanks for your input on this, it was well written and made me think, you are prob, correct in your assumption.

Joe on the other hand has me confused with this....The rectangular shaped backer which I sent you is from the split rear bumper and most likely is correct for that one. But as I told you, the square shaped backer makes the whole arrangement fit much better ......You use the term rectangular and then you use square, are you meaning the same backer???

Also Joe I am wondering if your second pict. and your 3rd and 4 th all the way to the right are the same??? This is what I think I have seen more often, I have always thought that the one I show above all the way to the right is not correct for DA as it is much more dished than what you have shown in your 3 rd and 4th pict. Can you confirm what I think I am seeing. You may have to send me one of those if we determine that is most prob. more correct for our front and rear bumpers.

I have also attached here a pict. that I thought I received from Jack Carpenter and his DA but he denied sending it at one point so I may still not know who sent it. I have resent it to Jack and asked again just in case I am wrong. Anyway it is here and maybe hard to see but it seems that the backer there is more similar to yours in its dish. Let me know what you think and anyone elses input would be helpfull that owns these cars.

Also Joe you did not comment onmy theory about your medallion already being a repro, I may be way off but another thing I notice in addition to what I listed above is that your curvature at the top and bottom where it meets at the center is not as extreme as mine.

But I have to admit that my medallion was extremely pitted and I ground the heck out of it and welded pits and ground the heck out of it ect ect ect so I just cant count on mine and that is why I asked you for yours. A third medallion would prob. answer all of this for us. Also I will admit that because yours is wider or rather longer it seems to fit over the ends of my bumper better than mine does. Anyway enjoy

[Guest 1930]

Joe this is what I mean when I am trying to explain the curvature of mine, it was taken from a DA bumper I think but I am just not sure it is correct

I have also attached here another pict. that I have collected of a backer that looks more like yours and take a look at it and tell me what you think, this is also DA car

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Jason-with regard to your picture in the first post, that backer on the far right is not DA. They definitely don't have the "dish" shape. And the picture of your "short" medallion sitting next to the one I sent you is probably a knock-off (Shrunk in the recasting process). All of mine are the same length, width, and height but do vary from individual to individual regarding the subtle curves where the bumper meets the medallion. Kind of almost custom-fit in a way.

As I indicated to you in prior emails that if you want a real nice match between the bumper bars and the medallion, you can get out your dremel and dial it in before you polish and plate it. It all depends on how fussy you want to be. Mine are already plated so its a done-deal for me.

I also mentioned to you that the rectangular backers (rectangular not square-sorry) yielded the best looking match-ups. I tried a bunch of combinations! It makes sense that the rectangular one gives you the best fitment as it shadows the medallion shape very closely. I would prefer to use this shape on the Phaeton.

It appears that your picture from Jack is the identical setup to my DA Sedan. The final picture you show is a bit incorrect as it shows two nuts used instead of only one.

[Guest 1930]

Alright well I disagree with one thing and that is the medallion I have is a knockoff, if you could have seen the condition it was in when I took it off the bumper you would agree, I will just lean back on Johns theory and add that througout prod. there were different versions for these made throughout time as well.

Now I need a version of your football shaped becking plate as that is what I need for my car.

Also what brass would you like to have these made in and any ideas on cheapest place to purchase, my VERY limited experince with this so far was working with very small amounts of aluminum and the same with brass but my supplies are nearly exhausted. I can get brass here locally but it will be an arm and a leg so do you or anyone else have nay ideas.

[keiser31]

1930...I will be casting up some clamps for 1931s in the future and they will be out of silica-bronze. I have heard from folks who have done castings of bumper parts and radiator caps and they recommend that material. Brass is pretty soft and cast iron shrinks a lot. Aluminum is o.k., but also soft. Joe is correct, I believe, in that the clamp is only supposed to come with one nut (the most outer nut in the photo). I have never seen a nut between the face bars and the bumper bracket.

[keiser31]

Here is an example of a silica-bronze radiator cap. Very easy to buff and plate. Very strong material.

[keiser31]

When I mentioned that I think Dodge Brothers used whatever was on the shelf, I said it because I found this other type of clamp on the same car as the first clamp shown above.

[Guest 1930]

Yes I do know that the two nuts isnt supposed to be there, I was just trying to show a bad picture of a backing plate. I was going to ask you about your casting as I had read that you planned a run, how much experience do you have with this. Did you make that cap, I would like to buy one just because it is so beutifull. Where do you get your materials, silica bronze, where might I learn more about using this material, do you sand cast to make these parts? I had a run a few months back with trying to reproduce a light escutchion, because the item was so small I was not able to do the backside as it should have been, it was just too thin, I tried sand casting and also the delft clay method.

I completely agree as I am sure most would that they used whatever was on the shelf and that is why there are no certainties, all we can do is research the best we can and make a conclusion.

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Wow John--REALLY nice job on that silica-bronze radiator cap. Quit your day job & go full-time exotic parts caster...

And Jason, its true, size doesn't really matter! If the shoe fits, use it.

"Now I need a version of your football shaped backing plate as that is what I need for my car." Uh-oh... Maybe I should drive the whole thing to Florida! Only joking--I'll continue dismantling my car for you (but only for you).

[nearchoclatetown]

FWIW, my DA has pieces that are both on the right of your pic, Jason. Kind of diamond shaped stamped back pieces and the front pieces with the distinct points in the center.

[keiser31]

My wife is all for me becoming a full-time exotic parts caster, but she is wondering where I will live...

Thanks for the compliments, but a friend of mine actually cast the radiator cap parts for me. I still have to finish buffing mine and plate it. The finished item is the one my buddy did (which is the same as my unfinished one). We used a sand casting and as you can see, it came out pretty nice even before buffing. Those rough areas just need a smaller buffing tool, but are very easy to work with. I gave my buddy my old cap. He dismantled it and filled and ground it until a good casting could be made of it. It was a crap shoot because those caps are so very rare and we were afraid that my original would get destroyed in the process. As you can see....it worked out.

[keiser31]

Just an example of the '31 DH6 bumper clamp in action.

[Guest 1930]

Joe, isnt one of your cars right hand drive, could that explain why there are some differences, I know alot of their stuff was different including the medallions themselves if I am not mistaken. Thanks Doug for throwing that in, I really believe that throughout DA cycle there were early and late versions of alot of things even though they were all listed as the same. I need to do a search on silica bronze I guess, Joe you better get out your wallet, even the name sounds expensive.

[Guest 1930]

John is this what you are reffering to I take it...............Bronze: C873 (Everdur)

Alloy C873 is also known as a Silicon-Bronze (or sometimes Silicon-Brass). Because of it's low lead content silicon-bronze is often a replacement for leaded plumbing brasses. Silicon Bronze is considered to be ideal for the amateur foundry. It can be remelted numerous times without changing composition. It has excellent pouring characteristics and gives a good surface finish. It has poor machinability however (Index of 40). The main use of this material is in art sculpture and plaques. It can be readily joined by brazing with oxyacetylene. It is composed of approximately 95% Copper, 4% Silicon, and 1% Manganese. It's pouring temperature is 1850 F - 2150 F

[keiser31]

I do believe that is the material. And yes...there are early and late versions of almost all of the Chrysler products through the 1929 through 1932 years...possibly further. For instance, my two 1931 Dodge coupes are NEARLY identical. I say "nearly" because they are early and late models. One has two hinges on the door...one has three. One has different choke and throttle dash knobs. One has matching knobs. They are both all "original" cars (except one which has been changed to wire wheels). There are other subtle differences that I believe were mid-year changes or they simply ran out of the designed part and opted to use a "leftover" part from an earlier model year. I believe that the stamped steel bumper clamp was changed to the cast one or vice versa because one was cheaper to make. Was cast and chromed cheaper than a stamped steel part with a back brace welded on? Who knows?

[idrjoe_sandiego]

Uh-oh Jason- just discovered some photos I took of that split rear bumper before I took the medallions off. Fortunately the camera has a better memory than I. Because it looks like the split bumper has the same football shaped backer as Jack's and My DA sedan. As I told you, and you'll see in the pics that both sides of this bumper had the correct medallion, but only one side had a backer. So that leaves me really wondering where I got the rectangle backer-the one that works so well. I need a parts manager!

[Guest 1930]

I have an appointment Tues. morning with someone concerning these castings, we need to figure this out. I have never seen that rectangular backer on DA and I could bore you with alot more pictures of different DAs than the few I have shown you already. In my opinion I dont think it is DA but then what does the other version look like for split bumper that the DA parts book mention?? I hate to waste alot of time material and effort into the wrong backer but more importantly where is the football shaped backer that I need to cast for my own car??

[idrjoe_sandiego]

I'll get one bundled up & on its way today but I don't think its gonna be there for your Tuesday meeting.

[Guest 1930]

Thats ok, thanks

[Guest 1930]

Spent the day today at a casting foundry and what an experience. The owner must of thought I was some big shot because he gave me the whole tour of the plant and the processes they use to make the parts. Anyway he could not have been nicer and I learned alot on the casting process. We poured two aluminum medallions today but we had the problem I often have and am trying to overcome and that is that it does not fully pour out so we will make another go on Thurs. This time in brass. I learned today that both Joes and my meddallion are original and correct. Mine is an earlier version as was cast and Joes is a later version and stamped, I guess they changed their process to save money. Mine as I thought is much heavier than Joes and he was able to perform what he called a zap test and it was an electronic spark that he ignited to piece and a computer program was able to analize the waves I guess and determine what sort of metals it was made from. It does not pinpoint the year but by the readout they are able to determine approx when it was made as they used certain metals prevelently throughout history.

Anyway I most certaintely dont know it all ( thats only my wife ) and it was a great learning experience of metals that I wouldnt trade.

[keiser31]

Man, I wish I could have been on THAT tour. I think that the cast originals were made of "cast steel". That is the term I was told. I guess that material is more malleable than cast iron and harder than brass or aluminum. Don't know what the shrinkage factor would be.

[Guest 1930]

I believe it was all called yellow steel, it is softer than what we have today, anyway I will be bringing a camera and voice dictating machine with me on Thurs and will post some info here. Big black guy looks like the guy from the movie green mile pours all the molds at once. He does from what I saw at least 30 at a clip, big ladle, dips it in gets it full and then raises it way up high so gravity will make a bigger force in pushing it through the mold. They have pneumatic shakers and compressors as well as armstrong machines. I guess they only fire up the brass when they plan to use it to conserve juice, said his electric bill is over 5000 a month and the shop wasnt enormous. Anyway we were just messing around today, he showed me a new method that I should have better luck with, the sand actually has a bonding agent introduced so it sets and makes a mold in about 15 min. He said that we just need to experiment with the vents to get a better pour. My biggest problem has always been what we had today happen and I know todays visit will help me alot. These medallions have no detail at all when considering that cap your buddy did but I still want to pick up whats there. AS far as shrinkage what he does is strategically place a preheated button ( not sure what material it is ) in the mold closest to the point he feels will cool of the quickest I guess and with that he is able to get a more consistent temp. thruought for optimum management of the shrinkage. Anyway I hope he is a courteous on Thurs.

[Guest 1930]

To make a long story short that multimillion dollar shop that I spent two days at and took some hundred plus pict of throughout could not help me to produce even one single example that I would have been satisfied with. They were pretty much mimicking the problems that I have spuratically, lack of flow, poor molds ect. Anyway I went back to my own drawing board tried some more got even more frustrated and talked someone more local into helping me out. He showed me alot of new ideas and techniques and made the first two molds for me. He then held my hand on the next two and let me go home and make alot more mistakes until I finaly got these clamps at least pouring thirty % of the time well.

I did not realize the amount of cleanup involved and was lucky that he had the tumblers, blasters ect to help me along with that also. Anyway Joe you said you needed at least three of the backing plates, I was not sure what at least meant so I made 6, if you dont need them all then maybe someone here will, I have 3 of the front medallions left, two are new style and one is the old style, the one old style seems to have shifted somewhat in mold so it is ok but not real nice. If anyone needs a set of DA medallions I have the one decent set and also a set of backers to go with them if Joe does not want them. The medallions or backers I will sell for 50 dollars a piece. They are already pretty well cleaned up and in my opinion ready to be plated, if I attempt to clean them anymore I will lose the details further. The old style which are cast have much better detail but I just made enough for my own car. Vern you had mentioned that you needed a pair so let me know if you still want them, I am off these now and dont plan on making any more of these for a while, I will get back on that A/C sediment bowl that is correct for DA if anyone is interested, those are definitely more complicated if I can even do them at all and the price will be prob. about 150 a piece and you may still have to do some of the machine work yourself at that price, just depends how much time I will have invested in them.