64 Starfire new problem

[Pat]

OK, battery was dead within 4 days from when it did turn over. I remember an article in auto restorer talking about how to track down a drain with a test light but cannot remember exactly how to do this. I thought it had something to do with touching the fuse box and if it barely glows thats at least one line to check. It seems like this started when I changed out the steering wheel. I had to rob a turn signal cancelling pin from a tilt wheel to put on a standard wheel cause the horns were messing up. I set it to manual specs and have good strong horns without any extra contacts now but it sure seems like it is the place to start. Is there a way to test light this to look for a short? If not I thought to charge the battery up and pull the wheel. If the battery is still strong by Monday, it would have to be related.

[Pat]

Thank you thank you thank you. That was what I remember reading now! I'm heading to Hershey Tuesday so I may not be able to chase this down until next week but will post my results. I'll try to at least do the first test after work tomorrow.

[Pete Phillips]

I had a 1961 Buick LeSabre with a fusible link (which gave trouble), so GM was using them by that time.

By the way, I need a few 1964 Starfire parts, if you have any of this: Socket & wire pigtail for map light in dashboard; neutral safety switch (at bottom of shift lever in console); turn signal switch & yoke for tilt steering column.

Pete Phillips

Sherman, TX

[Pat]

I'll have time to look when I get in next week. I'm positive I have a dash light/ map spare. I'm not sure about the other parts electrical but can probably scrounge up a lever.

[Pat]

Ok, update time. I hate when work, family, life get in the way of tackling these problems quickly! Anyway, I caved and got a new battery as a cell was not charging before starting the above tests. Got a low watt bulb and socket, placed on + cable and unhooked - and NO LIGHT at all. So now I'm thinking, all it was was a bad battery that coincidentally was losing charge due to the bad cell. However, I did find the underhood light wire was split and a light tug pulled it out of the lamp. This only turns on with the headlights, so could this be a drain anyway? Furthermore, the car started right up but I noticed the oil dummy light did not light before starting and the GEN dummy light did not either. Instrument lights worked though. Upon shutting it off, the GEN light turned on! This stayed on as I put the key in accessory position, off, and run. All three! So, next I started up again, GEN light goes off. Shut down, GEN light stays off. Indicative of an ignition switch going bad or bigger wiring probs? I guess I've been fortunate as I've never had these problems with a car before but now know why farmers ditch cars behind the shed!

[Pat]

Pete, send me an address. I have the map light stuff but unsure about the console switch. I may find a used one, would that help? Pat

[rocketraider]

Pat, look at the plastic connector on ignition switch, esp around the red hot wire. These cars are bad about melting them and I think the ground for bulb test wire is right next to the 12v source wire.

[Pat]

Checked the connector and don't see any evidence of melted plastic. This has to mean something but in one day, that new battery has lost enough charge to not start the car again! Interior lights are on bright but try to engage the starter and that clicking noise is back and the starter won't turn. Pulled the battery and put in another car with same result, so battery is back on charger for the night. This is nuts. How can this drain but not light up the light for the test method described above? Should I change all cables to start? I would think not showing up with the light but strong enough to drain in 12 hrs would be a large cable.

[Pat]

I reread the sequence of how to test. I've been touching the + and not the - terminal. Going out to do what I think I was doing wrong.

[Pat]

Well, shot that theory in the a**. Unless I need a FULLY charged battery, it has enough juice to run headlights. Unplugged the - cable and put one side of pigtail on - terminal, the other on the - cable. No light!

[Guest simplyconnected]

pfloro is right about a multimeter being sensitive, and sitting here, it's not easy troubleshooting with so many unknowns.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...in one day, that new battery has lost enough charge to not start the car again! ...not showing up with the light but strong enough to drain in 12 hrs would be a large cable. </div></div> Let's do the math: If you have a 60-amp/hour battery and it drains in 24 hours, (60/24=2.5amps) If yours is really draining in 12 hours, it is constantly losing FIVE amps every hour. That's huge! ANY size bulb will shine with five amps.

I was going to suggest you buy an LED and a 1,000-ohm series-resistor, but your light bulb should work just fine. Because a completed circuit requires two wires, you can use that light on either Positive or Negative terminals with equal results. The corroded hood light isn't your problem. You can either tape the wire off, or re-connect to a new light socket.

You have a burned-out "OIL" light in your dash. It should shine as soon as your key is turned to "RUN" (with the engine off).

The "GEN" light is MUCH more important. It actually excites the alternator to produce power.

Your description about the "GEN" light scares me. That light should go OFF when you take the key out. If it stays on, your voltage regulator might be powering the generator field all the time, and THAT's where your drain is.

It is possible, when you pull the battery cable off, you are resetting the alternator regulator relay, and the drain goes away. If you can pull the regulator cover off, you can see the relays. With your key OUT, #4 (BROWN) should be dead (check it with your light to NEG). Have someone turn the key to "RUN" and "OFF" while you watch the relays work. See if pulling the battery cable transitions the relay. Try it with the key both on, then off. Here's your schematic:

If this proves to be the problem, either your ignition switch is bad (probably is), or your alternator regulator relay contacts are sticking (pull a battery cable off, then use a small file or sandpaper on the contacts).

[Pat]

I got a dash bulb. The guy at the auto store read the post and said it had the best chance of lighting. Got a tester today but may not get a chance to use until Sat morning. What is the high range? There is a DCV area and DCA area. I think you want me to use the DCA but what is high? It has 200u, 2000u, 20m, 200m as choices.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Rule of thumb, Pat: ALWAYS use the highest setting and work down. You will probably use your meter to measure VOLTS, most of the time.

Use what you already know; your house is 120ACVolts, so use the 200ACVolt scale for measuring wall receptacles, and 2000VAC for your range receptacle because 230V is over 200ACV.

You know your car is 13DCVolts, so use the 20DCV scale, (if you have one). This will tell you if your battery is below 13DCVolts. (For starting, 12 is good, 8 is not.)

For troubleshooting car problems, the dash light bulb works perfectly. It indicates the presence of 12V, or not.

The DCAmps area of your meter is for measuring VERY SMALL amounts of current flow:

200u-amps = 0.000200 amps (from .000001amps to 200 micro amps scale)

2000u-amps =0.002000 amps

20m-amps = 0.020 amps (maximum of 20 milliamps)

200m-amps =0.200 amps (maximum of .2 amps DC)

This meter isn't very useful on a car because it can't measure up to ten amps DC. Remember, we determined your "leak" is around five amps continuously. This (amp)meter only goes up to .2 amps. If you exceed .2 amps, you will probably blow a fuse in your meter.

For BENCH-checking fuses (not powered), use the RESISTANCE scale. Start with the highest scale, and put the prods across a good fuse, then a bad one. You will see how it works.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Sorry, pfloro. I took too long doing the picture and didn't see your post. (I'm glad we agree.)

[Pat]

OK, here is where I'm at so far. I plugged the red into the 10 ADC outlet on the meter and set the DCA at 200m. I get a steady -.3 I tried pulling ALL fuses out, no change. I pulled off the horn plug from the junction, no change. Pulled the starter cable and purple lead, no change. That left a black line at the junction and a red line. Black, no change. Red, reading dropped to 0. Looking at schematics, it seems this red line is the main fuse box line, ignition switch, regulator, etc. If all the fuses are pulled but the drain is still there, does this mean it has to be the regulator or alternator? I hope this is narrowing this down.

[Pat]

BTW, how do I test to see if the oil dummy light is bad or the switch in the block? It would seem a lot easier to change the plug if that's what's bad. Will a test light show a charge to it or do I measure resistance on either side of the plug. What do I set a meter to and what is normal?

[Guest simplyconnected]

What happened when you tried my suggestion?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: simplyconnected</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...your light bulb should work just fine. Because a completed circuit requires two wires, you can use that light on either Positive or Negative Batt terminals with equal results. Your description about the "GEN" light scares me. That light should go OFF when you take the key out. If it stays on, your voltage regulator might be powering the generator field all the time, and THAT's where your drain is.

It is possible, when you pull the battery cable off, you are resetting the alternator regulator relay, and the drain goes away. If you can pull the regulator cover off, you can see the relays. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #990000">With your key OUT, #4 (BROWN) should be dead (check it with your light to NEG). Have someone turn the key to "RUN" and "OFF" while you watch the relays work. See if pulling the battery cable transitions the relay. Try it with the key both on, then off</span>.</span> If this proves to be the problem, either your ignition switch is bad (probably is), or your alternator regulator relay contacts are sticking (pull a battery cable off, then use a small file or sandpaper on the contacts).</div></div>

Pat, we are trying to detect the presence of VOLTAGE. Use the light. Your meter measurement of .2 milliamps is an open circuit. (0.0002amps won't light a single LED.)

By the way, tell us what settings your new meter has, or take a digital picture and post it.

[Pat]

The dash light bulb does not light up even dimly. I had my wife turn the key to run and saw nothing move. Hit the starter and the metal tab energized and released once started. Turned off and repeated same results. Normal? I'll go out yet tonight and run sequence again to be sure I'm accurate.

[Pat]

This time I had the wife turn the key to accessory, no GEN light. Run position, GEN light on. Hit starter, relay closed and released after starting, GEN light off. Turn key back to off, GEN light off but relay closed so that tab is touching metal. This should remain open after shutting off right?

[Guest simplyconnected]

I don't know what a tab is, unless you are describing the moveable relay contact.

Your key switch supplies +12v to the GEN light, then it goes to #4 (brown wire) on your alternator regulator. THIS is where you should use your test light. (From Battery NEG to #4 on the regulator). It is a way to check your ignition switch. You don't really have to start the engine. What's important is that when you take the key out (off position), your test light ALWAYS goes out, when attached to #4.

So far we have not found a battery drain. I suspect that your key switch is intermittantly passing power, even though it is off:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Upon shutting it off, the GEN light turned on! This stayed on as I put the key in accessory position, off, and run. All three! </div></div>

When an engine chokes and dies (key still in RUN), the GEN light should be on. As you can see from the electrical diagram, the GEN wire (brown) goes through a relay contact and then goes to the FIELD winding. That 'flashes' which creates a slight magnetism. The current isn't much because it's also going through your GEN bulb. A burned out GEN light will stop your alternator from working properly.

My question is, what is your test light showing you when attached to the brown #4 wire? Cycle the key six times and see if it ever passes power when in the OFF position.

[Pat]

OK, results. Test light did not light on brown wire. Key in accessory position, test light lit, no GEN light. Key in off position multiple times, test light off. Key in run position, test light lit and GEN light on. Will try again later today as the light was definately on before with key in off position. As per the tab, yes it is the relay. Key in run position, Gen on and contact closed. Hit key to start, car starts and when key returns to run position, the relay opens. Turn car off, GEN off and relay closes to touch together again. Repeated this several times with the relay responding the same.

[Guest simplyconnected]

"Key in off position multiple times, test light off. Key in run position, test light lit and GEN light on. Hit key to start, car starts and when key returns to run position, the relay opens. Turn car off, GEN off and relay closes to touch together again. Repeated this several times with the relay responding the same."

That's exactly how it's supposed to work.

So far, we found a "glitch," where the GEN light was ON with the key out: Bad ignition switch. That should never happen, but if it does, your battery will drain through the alternator field and GEN light. Same story when your key is in ACCESSORY. You should only get a GEN light when the key is in RUN (and the engine isn't running).

The glitch hasn't happened since (and your battery hasn't drained since.)

When you put your key in RUN, current goes through the GEN light, then to your regulator. If your test light was on, your GEN light HAD to be on, too. We are only checking your ignition switch, still. Sounds like it is either bad, or someone left the key in RUN all night long.

[Pat]

I haven't had the battery drain cause I have been leaving it unhooked. It will be dead if I leave it hooked up by morning. Of all the times the battery kept draining, only the one series of times did the GEN stay on. That's how I noticed it cause of it being on when off. The GEN is on when in accessory but not as bright as in run. Acts the same as my other 64s in that respect.

[Guest simplyconnected]

I got the image of your new meter, and I have to warn you:

See where it says "10A max unfused"? It means if you put more than ten amps through your meter, it will burn up, and I sure don't want that to happen.

It looks like this meter is what you want to troubleshoot just about anything on your car. It does go up to ten amps, and we determined your "battery drain" is about five amps DC. For now, let's NOT use amps.

I like searching for the presence of voltage first, especially in places where it doesn't belong. It is rare to damage your meter when looking for 12dcv (use the 20-DCV scale).

Set your meter up to measure 20 DCV (black prod in COMMON, and red lead in V/Ohm/milliamps). Connect ONE cable to your battery. Put your meter prods between the empty battery post and the cable that normally goes to it. With the key OFF (or out), read your meter. You should see ZERO volts (no battery drain). Do this test and tell what you find, Pat. Try cycling the switch a few times and see if you get consistant results. - Dave

[Pat]

OK. It's hard to get to the car during the week so I got some combinations in case this helps. Battery disconnected and touching + to - 12.45. + cable on - cable off and fuses out of box I got 12.40. - cable still off and fuses put in 12.34

[Guest simplyconnected]

Pat, please follow the following voltage test:

Connect the NEG cable to your battery. Put your meter prods between the POS battery post and the disconnected cable that normally goes to POS. With the key OFF (or out), read your meter. You should see ZERO volts (no battery drain). Do this test and tell what you find, Pat. Try cycling the switch a few times and see if you get consistant results.

If you get 12volts, disconnect the "BAT" wire on your alternator (the big post). Tape then end of the wire so it doesn't touch ground, and try the same test again.

Please stick to these tests so I know where to go next. - Dave

[Pat]

OK, new results. Going between + cable and post 12.4 Removed the batt line from alternator and now get 0 several times and a couple .01 and one .02 Good?

[Guest simplyconnected]

FANTASTIC! It looks like you have a shorted diode inside your alternator.

Pull it out of your car and bring it to any large auto parts store for free testing. Call them before you go.

How many miles are on this alternator?

I urge you to check out this two-part video on repairing GM alternators: ALTERNATOR REPAIR VIDEO

Your alternator is even more simple than the one in the video because you have an external regulator. If you decide to repair your own, call a starter/alternator repair shop. They will have your parts, cheaper than you think.

Or, you can replace your alternator with one that has an INTERNAL REGULATOR, very easily. If you go this way, you can toss your external regulator and elliminate lots of wires. That same alternator shop will tell you which alternator to swap with. Scrap yards crush them on a daily basis. - Dave Dare

[Pat]

Cool! Would that explain the GEN light screw up with the key off as well? Lastly, how do I check to see if the oil light switch works? I'd hate to tear out the dash bezel if its not the bulb. Thanks Pat

[rocketraider]

Yes it would. I missed that earlier, GEN lamp on with switch off is a dead giveaway of a shorted alternator diode.

To test the oil lamp and sender is simple except for having to go under the car to get at it. You might be able to do it from the top if your arms are long enough.

With ignition switch ON (bulb test), simply GROUND the oil sender wire to the car frame or engine. The oil warning lamp should light. If it doesn't, bad bulb or circuit board.

If none of the warning lamps test, I'd suspect the ground terminal in the ignition switch which is why I suggested checking the connector.

You do not have to pull the dash bezel off to replace the warning lamps. You may have to remove the A/C manifold if it's there, and that would have to come off if you're pulling the bezel anyway. Reach up behind the dash to get at the warning lamps. There's more room behind there than you think.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cool! Lastly, how do I check to see if the oil light switch works?</div></div> Remember that "test" light you made? Let's put it to work.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">With the key off</span>, disconnect the wire on your "oil light" sending unit (on the engine). (The sending unit is really just a pressure switch.) Connect one test-light lead to +POS on your battery. Touch the other lead to ground to make sure you have a good connection; it should light. Now, touch that same lead to the sending unit tip. It should light just like you are touching to ground. (When your engine is running the light should be off.)

* If your sending unit does NOT shine your light, it is bad. They don't cost much to replace, and every auto parts store usually has them. You can get one at ROCK AUTO.

* If your sending unit SHINES your light, you have a burned-out dash bulb. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you could use your test light bulb to replace the one in your dash.

The key switch (in "RUN") feeds + to your "OIL" light, then it goes to the engine pressure switch (sending unit) for ground. There is nothing but connectors between these three. With the key in "RUN" but the engine is stopped, you could call this a TEST situation, but in reality, the pressure switch senses no pressure and completes the "OIL" light circuit. There is no electronics involved. As soon as your engine starts making oil pressure, that light should go off.

The "OIL" light is one of your most important indicators and should be functional at all times. Equally important is the "TEMP/HOT" light. It works the same way, only in reverse. To test, pull the sending unit out and put the end in a pan of boiling-hot water with the connector above the water-line. You can use your meter on this while it's in water. Set the meter to ohms (or diode), and when the temp sending unit gets up to heat it will conduct, meaning it will show nearly zero ohms resistance. As long as water is in the pan, you can't damage the sensor. I use a heavy wire to hold the sensor, hanging the wire over the side of the pan, (like doing Easter eggs). - Dave

[Pat]

Did the switch test and test light operated as explained so tomorrow I'll get under the dash and replace the bulb and keep my fingers crossed. I get the alternator back Tues and will update probably next Sat as I get off work late this week.

[Pat]

OK, got the alternator back. Battery has been hooked up the last few days and still good. Ran the test between the + post and cable with everything hooked up, reading is -3 to -3.2 but no 0's. Tried several times with same result. I can't get back to the car until Sunday but does this mean I still have a drain? The car will be hooked to the battery until I get back so I expect it will be dead if it is leaking.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ran the test between the + post and cable with everything hooked up, reading is -3 to -3.2 but no 0's.</div></div>

What scale are you on??? What holes are your leads in??? If you are reading 3-milliamps, I estimate your battery to be dead in about 18,333 hours (2-yrs). [50-amp/hr battery] 50amps/.003amps=18,333hours. Remember, an LED draws .020amps (20milliamps).

I thought we were working on a "OIL" dash light. How did that work out? Did you find a bad bulb?

[Pat]

It was in the 20DCV with the red line in the hole above the ground line. The same setup when I measured and it was determined the diode was bad. The directive was it should read 0 but I only got 0 when I took the batt line off the alternator. Had the alternator fixed, reattached the plug and hot line, then redid the test between the +post and cable and got the -3.2ish. I was expecting a 0 but unsure. The oil light test performed exactly as described so I assume it is the bulb. I have not had a chance to get behind and change it out yet. That said, the battery was left hooked up several days and cranked just fine.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Ok, you read a voltage of 3, meaning there is a voltage DROP of 9 volts. (The new alternator diodes and regulator reisitors are passing only three volts, which is VERY good.)

Looks like your new alternator has cleared your battery drain. Hope you get your dash lights in working order. - Dave

[Pat]

Thank you all so much for working this out. I'll update the bulb when I get a chance I think this weekend. For reference, where would I find the info you shared in terms of what volts are good, ohms, or whatever for various applications? You say a reading of 3 is very good, how would the average guy know this or better yet what is the cutoff for not so good? Is there some old time general maintenance handbook for this or do you really need classwork time, experiance, or useful online forums like this? LOL. My reasoning is like anything else, if you don't do it regular, you lose it. I hope I don't have to mess with these problems again but I know that's not reality.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...where would I find the info you shared in terms of what volts are good, ohms, or whatever for various applications? You say a reading of 3 is very good, how would the average guy know this or better yet what is the cutoff for not so good? </div></div> Pat, alternators, gen's, starters, batt's, etc. all return to the earth sooner or later. There isn't much difference between ANY brand. Most all good shop service manuals teach good troubleshooting techniques; I have no preference for brand or author. Your problems have played-out daily, for a very long time, over thousands of cars. Following current flow/leaks is what I do.

Understanding electricity is not easy because you can't see it. Reading the meter isn't easy if you can't put values in perspective. Use known basics to start, as I have described earlier, then you will begin to understand. In my estimation, all tools are valuable but your home-made test light is the most valuable tool for troublshooting your car's electrical system. Learn the many ways to use it.

In most cases, SOME "leakage" is necessary. Modern cars use a tiny bit of current to keep the radio stations and clock settings active. In fact, if you go to Sears, they plug in a small battery into your cigarette lighter while the guy changes your car battery. That maintains computer settings for starting, clock, radio, etc. Most modern engine computers use a stored history to determine new starting settings. If you wipe out the history the car will run like crap for the next 10-15 trips to the store.

So, pick up a service manual for your car. You can use your new meter and test light while you follow the book. Get one from eBay if your local parts store is out.