trouble starting today

[Jim NotreDame IN]

hey again... today i drove to a store to get some home supplies (don't ask me how i get eight foot 2x4's into the reatta) and anyway, after i got back into my car from the store i tried starting the car. i let off of the key a little too soon, before the engine rpm's got up to whatever threshold they need to be at to actually catch and run the engine under its own power. and when i tried to turn the engine over again, it just cranked and cranked. i tried to start the car off and on for about 2 minutes. i hate doing that because i always feel like i'm gonna heat up the starter too much. but i couldn't get it to go to save my life. the starter bendix gear was engaging and turning the engine over. i tried two different keys incase the resistor went out in one of them. i bypassed the starter kill on my alarm by shorting the relay i installed, and i even checked all of my fuses with a multimeter that i had in the trunk. i could hear the fuel pump prime itself, and there was no dummy light or anything. do you think that maybe i tripped the factory anti theft system or something? it started about ten minutes later, after my wife got there to pick me up. it always works that way doesn't it? any ideas of what to look into? to make things complicated, i did wiggle all of the connectors under the hood without testing to see if it would start after each of them individually. i'm a professional installer of about 7 years now, and i've never had a problem with a started kill like that, so i know its not that either. thanks.

[Ronnie]

Man, I hate to sound like an @$$hole but how about starting a new paragraph every once in a while and slowing down and using a capital letter at the start of the sentences. What you wrote looks like one long sentence and it's too hard to follow what you are saying.

I can see you need help and I'm willing to help. Just make it a little easier to do so. It would also help if you would put the model of your car in the signature line so we don't have to ask every time.

[Guest campolojr]

Maybe the crankshaft position sensor but other than that if it does it again see if it has spark. How many miles on your engine has any sensors been replaced that you know of and how soon?

[Jim NotreDame IN]

Sorry about that. Its hard to do caps and return lines and indentation and stuff like that on my i-phone, I was in a hurry.

Anyway though, car wouldn't start today, because I let off the key too soon for the engine to catch all the way. Everything seemed normal. The engine cranked and I could hear the fuel pump and everything. Didn't have a check engine light...

I checked all of my fuses with a multimeter, and wasn't able to find anything there either.

I waited about ten minutes and tried it again, and got the engine to start right up. While it was sitting for those ten minutes, I did check the connectors on top of the engine like the MAF sensor and injector harness, etc.

So I'm not sure if something happened magically with waiting ten minutes, or if I wiggled the right wire the right way.

Any ideas?

I've gotten in the habit of leaving my tools at home, I'll have to bring a survival kit with me incase this happens again, because I couldn't have come up with a screwdriver to save my life, and if I had a stuck fuse with no puller or anything, I'd really be screwed.

Thanks!

[Jim NotreDame IN]

can you damage anything in the reatta's ignition system by turning the engine over without the proper load on the plug wires? I couldn't hurt anything by testing spark by pulling a wire and arcing it to ground, could I?

[Ronnie]

I would check the codes to see if anything is stored there. If you find anything, right it down. Then reset the codes. That way if the problem returns you will know what codes were generated by the problem of not starting.

[Guest EDBS0]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ronnie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man, I hate to sound like an @$$hole </div></div>

Here we go again ... <span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #33CC00">confused literacy polize!

Take this to the grammmar forum,

this is the Reatta Forum!!!!!!!!!!!!! </span></span></span>

[Guest campolojr]

No, I don't think it would hurt just try to keep some sort of gap when starting, and don't crank it too long it should spark and youll know it.

I just need to know if you have any spark. I had the symptoms with many 3800's along with my 88' Reatta. She would just die wait a while and v-roooom. But it kept getting worse.

Also, never had a check engine light for some reason. Happened around 150,000 - 170,000 give or take from what I have seen.

I wouldn't know how to check if your cps is good maybe use a multi meter on the wires off of it and spin the motor slowly with a ratchet and you should see it go on and off or something but that is just a guess. I let my mom borrow my camera so I cannot show you this one unless somebody else wants to post.

Also, When it started up when you got back there did it start as if nothing happened like it forgave you. Or did it start harder

[Jim NotreDame IN]

i've got about 140k miles on it. and yes, when i started it again, it was just fine, no issue at all. it forgave me, i guess.

i did have to replace the magnet for the hall effect interrupter circuit for the cam position sensor.

am i remembering it correctly, that the crank position sensor is that weird thin that you have to gap correctly inside of the dampener pulley? i can't remember if i changed that or not, last go around. may be time to replace that one this time. thanks for the advice. i need the dampener replaced anyway, so i may just do them both.

is the 'matchbook' method still the correct way to gap the sensor inside of the pulley? thanks

[Jim NotreDame IN]

just got home from another breakdown... i went to the store to buy a spark tester because my old one is still at my parents house.

in the parking lot of the store that i bought the tester in, i was able to confirm that i do have a no spark condition. i was also able to locate a ride home.

i'll look into a ckp sensor (crankshaft position) tomorrow... what else would cause a no spark condition?

[Richard S]

Checking for spark at the plugs when it refuses to start is a good idea. It will tell you if your coil is going bad. If it does turn out to be the coil, it's a good time to change from the Magnavox to the Delco.

[Jim NotreDame IN]

is there a diagnostic tree to look off of anywhere? otherwise, i'm not sure if i would be able to tell whether the problem is the coil, or something in the chain before it.

i posted the other day about a noise that the engine is making, it sounds like a heat shield, but it also sounds like something rotating... what are the possibilities that i'm hearing a worn out balancer wobbling into the crank sensor?

the only thing that makes that sound less likely to me is the fact that the problem only exists when starting, the engine runs fine after it's already going.

[Ronnie]

You have three individual coils and I doubt all three went bad at the same time. The ignition module that sits under the coils is a likely source of your problems. Components like the ignition module can stop working when they get hot and work again when they cool down.

[Jim NotreDame IN]

is there a diagnostic chart in the manual at reatta.net that i can use to figure out what is happening?

[Ronnie]

Yes, it is listed under Driveability and emissions

Page: 6E3-A-18

Chart: A-3 (Engine starts but won't run)

Did you test for stored codes? That is the first step in determining your problems. If so what were they?

[Guest jcc3inc]

Jim,

We had a similar problem with out '97 LeSabre. It quit ater we had gone some distance, was running poorly, and quit at a stoplight. After some grumbling to ourselves and waited maybe 10 minutes it started and we got home OK. I ended up replacing the crankshaft position sensor AND the fuel pump. Most likely the problem was the crank sensor. I was told that if you could pour some cold water over it, it would likely again operate OK.

Regards,

Jack C.

[Guest campolojr]

If you don't have spark crankshaft position sensor. Don't know the matchstick method but they do tell you like .20" or something so might be good to have a feeler gauge handy.

Yes, JCC3inc this is what sold me on it I had a 92 that left me stranded everywhere replaced that and a sheared harmonic balancer key and was a perfect machine.

Hope this info was what you are looking for and hope it works for you. try the cold water but make sure not to crack the block or anything.

[Richard S]

Yes, thanks Ronnie. I did not mean any of the individual coil packs, but the module.

[Jim NotreDame IN]

just changed both the balancer and the crank sensor... the matchbook method is a diy way to space the fins on the sensor appropriately around the exciter rings on the back of the balancer. works pretty well, and you don't have to order gm tool #654651231654987 (i made up the number, but its probably just as expensive).

anyway, haven't broken down yet, we'll see how this week goes. the clamp/mount that came with the new sensor broke before i got the pinch bolt to the correct torque, so i just used the old one.

i'll give you the update as it unfolds

[Guest campolojr]

Hey Jim did that balancer stop your rattle also? Glad to here she isn't dying on you.

[Jim NotreDame IN]

still got a little rattle, but you have to be really nitpicky to even notice it. plus i've got a missing grommet between the dash and engine compartment, and my glove box is out, so there's a lot more noise than normal anyway. i suspect that the noises i'm hearing are due to the accessory pullies being 20 years old. the heat shield rattle post is mine, it whole be near the top of the list, so you could find that thread easily too.