Packard engine data needed

[Guest DaveCorbin]

I usually post on the Buick part of the website, but a strange thing happened recently. A friend bought a 1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk. This particular car has had a 374 Dual Quad Packard 1956 engine installed years ago. The car was a barn find here in Texas, off the road since 1970. The transmission appears to be a 1947-48 Packard with an Overdrive. It needs an input gear and a counter gear. The adaptor plate to make this combination work was apparently an after-market item and is clearly identified as being made by Offenhauser.

My questions are:

1) Will that transmission stand the 374?

2) Have any of you ever seen this installation or one like it?

3) There's no aircleaner on it. Will a stock Packard dual quad air cleaner fit under that low Hawk hood?

Any suggestions or comments will be appreciated.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Clipper47]

The transmission is very sturdy and can probably handle the 374 engine without a problem. It was a transmission common used in early hot rods and known to be tough as I recall.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Clipper:

Do you or anyone else have more exact data? What's the maximum torque of that 374? How does this compare to the 1947-48 big series Packard straight eight's torque?

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Clipper47]

Dave, My Motor's Manual give the following max. torque figures;

356CID (1940-1950 Senior engine) 292ft/lbs @2000RPM

474CID 405ft/Lbs @2800RPM

Curiously the torque figure for the 474 engine is the same for both the 290HP and 310HP versions of the engine.

Regards

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Dave:

Well, I think you've solved the mystery as to why that 374 broke the transmission. The 356 peak of 292 ft-lb would indicate a design criteria of probably 400 ft-lb, to allow for shifting jolts. That 405 ft-lb of the 374 would be above that just by sticking your foot in that big 374 horse! That would easily go to 550-600 ft-lb on shifting jolt.

As to horsepower, the numbers you give indicate 216 HP at 2800 RPM for the 374, but only 111 at 2000 RPM for the 356.

It looks like that older Packard box doesn't cut it behind the 1956 Dual Quad 310 hp. To make 310 HP, even with a absolutely flat torque peak, the engine would be doing around 4000-4100 RPM. Then it's "GOODBY, BOX!!!!"

Thanks for some VERY USEFUL info.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Rusty_OToole]

Back in the 50s Cadillac LaSalle 3 speeds were commonly used behind big OHV V8s. They were the strongest manual trans available but they could still be broken thru abusive driving.

The Packard trans was sometimes used, and was considered as strong as the Cad-LaSalle.

To answer your question, if the Packard trans was in good shape and you can resist the urge to bang shifts and pop the clutch at stop lights, it should last pretty much as long as you want it to.

I know on paper it doesn't look strong enough but it will stand up if you give it a chance. By that I mean, give it a chance build up some momentum before you floor the throttle.

The tires will let go before you overstress the transmission.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Now, the Big decision is: What to Replace it with ???

I suppose you want to stay with a stick shift, correct?

That adapter should be worth a lot to someone, if you deside not to use it.

[Rusty_OToole]

More food for thought:

At Bonneville many cars used Ford transmissions with hopped up engines. They found on a steady pull, the Ford 3 speed could take up to 1000 HP before it failed, this is the 3 speed from the flathead era designed for an 85 to 100 HP engine.

There is a big difference between drag racing and ordinary driving, it's popping the clutch and banging shifts that shocks and breaks parts not a steady pull.

I seriously doubt you are planning on drag racing that car anyway. For all reasonable purposes the Packard 3 speed will be fine. And it does preserve an original modified car. Something to be desired, especially if it has a racing history.

[Rusty_OToole]

On the air filter question. I believe the 1956 Golden Hawk was equipped with a hood scoop from the factory for this reason.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Rick:

Well, we've got a 1956 Ultramatic "laying around" that would work but wouldn't get us where we would want to go, so we're open to suggestions. It looks like something from behind a 454 Chevy or a 427 Ford is what's really required. What fits in the space? Can we find an adapter plate? Who has or could make us one? Keep in mind that the car was converted at least 40 years ago, so something from about 1966 is probably "historically" correct, because it would have been available.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Rusty:

As far as we know, the car was not raced. Appearance is completely stock needing normal restoration (paint & upholstery), just very faded with small rocker rust.

We have figured out that it would really fly, but I spent years of my life building trucks and those torque figures scare me. All it would take is 1 second of absent-mindedness and it's start over time!!

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Rusty:

The hood has a fake air scoop on it, but still needs something for an air cleaner. Nothing came with the car.

Ir does, however, have real wire wheels, which I would think are non-original. They look like the wire wheels off of a 1954 Buick or something similiar.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, it's finding an adapter, bell-housing and Clutch that will fit and line up properly, is the Difficult part, since the back-end of the 374 is rather strange, compaired to most engines.

I remember someone trying to do that (user Turbopackman), on this forum about a year or two ago, but I don't remember if he ever found something that would work on not. And it was his posts being Deleted, at his request (got pissed about something), that caused a major deletion Error on this forum, so that Info is Gone forever, unless he still visits the www.packardinfo.com site?

[Clipper47]

Dave, Back about 1959 my brother owned a 40 Ford coupe with a well massaged 6 carb 331 Chrysler hemi in front of a 1940's Packard transmission. I think it had a Lincoln rear end also but maybe it was a Lincoln Trans and a Packard rear :-)....a long time ago. In any event Packard trans and diffs had a reputation for being tough to break and he wasn't always easy on his stoplight drags. Of course the tires were narrow and the wheels would spin without a locker axle so I suppose the tires took much of the torque shock.

I would imagine that even with Packard penchant for over engineering it's components that the transmission would be at or near it's limit with that 374 engine if you plan on drag racing the car. I'll bet with that aerodynamic body and the overdrive that car would really have a fantastic top speed. Take it easy on the upshifts and that Packard trans would last a long long time. Good luck.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

I know on paper it doesn't look strong enough but it will stand up if you give it a chance. By that I mean, give it a chance build up some momentum before you floor the throttle.

The tires will let go before you overstress the transmission.

Dear Rusty:

Good point about the tire adhesion limit. However, the car has tires on it about 3/4 inch wider than stock and on wire wheels, which would flex slightly and give a much harder "bite".

In the late 50's, I built for a friend a 1940 Ford 2 door sedan with a Cad-Lasalle in it. Power was a 1957 Chrysler, bored & stroked to 464 cu.in., making around 680 HP. Car really moved, box stood the forces, but he busted it once, too. I've gotten too old to enjoy changing boxes anymore than absolutely necessary.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest bkazmer]

sick thought for a period choice - Pont à Mousson (sp?) as Chrysler used. Just kidding!

[Rusty_OToole]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveCorbin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Rick:

Well, we've got a 1956 Ultramatic "laying around" that would work but wouldn't get us where we would want to go, so we're open to suggestions. It looks like something from behind a 454 Chevy or a 427 Ford is what's really required. What fits in the space? Can we find an adapter plate? Who has or could make us one? Keep in mind that the car was converted at least 40 years ago, so something from about 1966 is probably "historically" correct, because it would have been available.

Regards, Dave Corbin </div></div>

What are your plans for the car? Do you intend to drag race it every weekend and hammer the immortal p*ss out of it the rest of the week?

If so, get rid of it to someone who will appreciate it and buy a Camaro.

If you know how to drive without abusing a car, the manual trans will be fine for all normal purposes. You will be able to drive it to your heart's content and not worry about hurting the trans, provided you are a half way sensible driver.

The V8 engine will NOT blow the trans provided a) it's in good shape to start with and you take off easy and let the car build up a little momentum before you floor the throttle.

For extra protection you could use Molyslip lube in the trans.

[mrpushbutton]

Some folks who don't understand how to fix an Ultramatic have adapted a Chrysler 727 (only certain years) using a kit made by a region of P.I.

A shop in Texas (or someplace like that) has engineered the current GM TH unit (heavy-duty truck trans) to go on the back of the Packard V-8, he mills the bellhousing where the half-round portion of the Packard V-8 top rear "bellhousing" half would interfere.

The rest pretty much bolts up.

A twin Ultramtic can give decent life if set up well. Hammering such as racing isn't considered good for the life of the T-U though..........

Here is the information on the GM adaptation:

http://www.mikestransmissions.com/Classics/UltraOD.html

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Rusty:

It's being restored to be sold. I just want to be able to tell the buyer what the car honestly is, not break it and be mad about it. It's been off the road for at least 38 years because someone installed something that didn't have the torque rating that would get it done right.

As far as driving skills, at 68 I've acquired a few in 5 million miles. If you go over to the Buick part of the website, there's a thread about "What have you driven?". You would find my answers informative. After 29 years building heavy trucks, diesel engines, and farm equipment with an MIT degree in mechanical engineering for a starter, I've learned to ask the right questions.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Clipper47]

Dave, Could you provide a link to the thread. I searched it and couldn't find it.

[56 Victoria]

I had a '56 Golden Hawk back in '57. It came with a 352 Cu.In. engine. The big packards 400's, etc came with a 374. The 352 was in a Clipper. As far as the "Ultramatic" it was junk! Mine was torn up all of the time and nobody could work on it. A friend of mine had one with a 3 speed overdrive and I assume back in those days it was probably a warner T-85 a very tough transmission. The horsepower on the 352 was 275. The next year 1957 Studebaker used a supercharged Studebaker motor with 275 hp. I loved the car but that Ultramatic was junk. The only tough automatic transmission back in those days was a Hydramatic especially if it had been gone over by B&M.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Dave:

Go to "Buck Club - General" and find a thread headed "What's the oddest thing you've ever driven?" I put several posts there answering that one.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Clipper47]

Dave, Thanks I found it! That is quite a list of oddities you have driven.

[RichFox]

About a year or a year and a half ago I had a thread about installing a Ford Top Loader on a Packard V8. A near bolt on and very stout transmission used in drag racing and NASCAR. Search "Transmission Conversions" on this forum

[Owen_Dyneto]

Might not be easy to find but a good sturdy trans would be the one Packard originally offered for this engine. It was available, though uncommon, on all models and sizes of the Packard V8 except the dual-quad Caribbean though some of those were dealer or later owner-converted. You see the trans (also offered with OD) from time to time, but the flywheel seems pretty elusive

[RichFox]

Looks like if you can find a bellhousing a flywheel can't be to far away. Or at least they are available in the aftermarket, if your willing to pay. I sold a NOS flywheel for $100 and bought a NOS Schefier aluminum flywheel for mine. Lately I had to go on a Golden hawk forum and beg for a bellhousing. Seems the Golden Hawk guys are the guys that have them stashed away

[Rusty_OToole]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveCorbin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Rusty:

It's being restored to be sold. I just want to be able to tell the buyer what the car honestly is, not break it and be mad about it. It's been off the road for at least 38 years because someone installed something that didn't have the torque rating that would get it done right.

As far as driving skills, at 68 I've acquired a few in 5 million miles. If you go over to the Buick part of the website, there's a thread about "What have you driven?". You would find my answers informative. After 29 years building heavy trucks, diesel engines, and farm equipment with an MIT degree in mechanical engineering for a starter, I've learned to ask the right questions.

Regards, Dave Corbin </div></div>

I would say you have the skills to drive that car for the rest of your life and never hurt the transmission.

As far as selling it goes, if you tell the buyer honestly what he is getting you are in the clear in my book.

Others have chimed in with experiences of the past, with drag racing, abusive driving, and more powerful motors than you have, and the Packard and similar Cadillac transmissions stood up for a long time.

Given a little common sense they will stand up forever.

You should see what they are putting in cars for transmissions these days. How about the GM turbo 200 transmission, originally designed for the Vega, later they put them in every RWD car even full size Caprice wagons with V8s.

And then there's the 5 speed manual trans they use behind everything from Chevette 4 cylinders to V6 Camaros and Astro vans and 5 litre V8 Mustangs and get away with it.

Compare the new transmissions to yours and you will say "if they can get away with this kind of flimsy poopoo my tranny should last a 1,000,000 years."

[Rusty_OToole]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveCorbin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I know on paper it doesn't look strong enough but it will stand up if you give it a chance. By that I mean, give it a chance build up some momentum before you floor the throttle.

The tires will let go before you overstress the transmission. </div></div>

Dear Rusty:

Good point about the tire adhesion limit. However, the car has tires on it about 3/4 inch wider than stock and on wire wheels, which would flex slightly and give a much harder "bite".

In the late 50's, I built for a friend a 1940 Ford 2 door sedan with a Cad-Lasalle in it. Power was a 1957 Chrysler, bored & stroked to 464 cu.in., making around 680 HP. Car really moved, box stood the forces, but he busted it once, too. I've gotten too old to enjoy changing boxes anymore than absolutely necessary.

Regards, Dave Corbin

How many times did he stand on the gas and dump the clutch from a standing start? How many slam shifts? How many times did he power shift thru the gears at the drags?

It's the sudden hammer blow of popping the clutch at rest, or slam shifting that breaks parts. Not steady pressure no matter how intense.

At Bonneville they found out that a standard prewar Ford flathead's transmission will take up to 1000 HP before it blows, on a steady pull.

This is a tranny built for an 85HP engine.

I still say the prewar Packard transmission is plenty strong enough for your car provided it is used with a little common sense.

Let your teenage hormones loose and all bets are off.

Frankly if you are planning on a lot of abusive driving like your friend's 40 Ford you are screwed anyway. If you put in a dump truck tranny it won't blow but something else will, such as a universal joint, differential or engine.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

THe Ford flathead transmission was used striclty as an In/Out box in certain racing circles such as Indy, Bonny etc where there was not any gear changing. The racers would remove all of the gears and use it stricly for High and Nuetral. Probably used heavier input shaft. They did it for compactness and light weight just to get nuetral and High gear.

The Ford, Chev and MoPar STANDARD transmissions used in the pre 1955 era as well as a few applications into to early 60's were generaly very weak transmissions and would only last about 40K miles no matter how subdued the driving habit. Put a flat head ford trans behind a lowly 283 with a 2bbl and it might last 5k miles.

The problem is that they have very light duty or small gear sets in them.