buick man
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Posts posted by buick man
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The car was stored all that time in Los Angeles. Fairly temperate and stable. I was planning on pulling the pan as part of the preservation anyway.
When I first brought it home, I took the plugs out and put some marvel mystery oil into each cylinder with a big plastic hypo like you use in fiberglass/epoxy work. Let it sit for about a week then took a 3/4 inch ratchet and a 1 inch socket and tried to turn the engine over by hand with the plugs out and the belts off. It turned with ease on the first try with little pressure on my part. So that's a good sign.
I will let you guys know what it looks like after I pull the pan and will take some photos. Yeah I wish I had a lighted bore scope. It would be neat to hook it up to my video camera as well. I will look into that.
Kinda curious to see what the oil analysis comes up with as well.
Thinking this out a bit further, if it was a head gasket however, the cylinder that was effected by the leak most likely after all this time would of been frozen/rusted. That is apparently not the case as it spins easily via the hand method. Also when I pulled off the valve covers I was amazed as to how clean the residual oil sitting in the head valleys was. When I pull the valley cover this was clean as well. Nothing milky nor evidence of condensation and or rusted areas.
You know this clear liquid could of been trapped water vapor that had condensed and was trapped at the bottom of the oil layer. The source could of been atmospheric in nature since I really did not get much out as clear liquid. The oil volume amounted to approximately 6-quarts.
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Just wanted to get some of your opinions on what is this clear liquid in my old oil!
I am now gearing up to take my pan off and cleaning everything up, rebuilding my oil pump and installing a 1960 oil filter boss for spin-on filters. I am doing all of this to bring my motor out of it's long term sleep, since my motor has sat and not running for at least 30 years that I know of in a garage. Long enough to make the oil on the dip stick to look very new and clean looking. Heck it even smells new. As I rub the oil on my finger it still feels new.
Now on to the oil drain:
I noticed as I slowly turned the drain plug so I could watch in slow motion what was dripping out before I got the drain plug all the way out, I noticed clear liquid coming out. Maybe about a half cup. Like water yet very clear. I let it sit dripping like that for a minute or so and let this clear liquid drain out. Then as I turned the plug out toward the end oil started dripping and the clear liquid was gone. I let it drip like this for awhile and noticed no new clear liquid dripping. Then I removed the plug and drained into a container. I will take it to a guy out at my local airport for an analysis. Perhaps the clear fluid was water. There had been no signs of water on the dip stick or even after I drained it water in the oil as milky or viscous. Just dark oil that still felt very lubricating to the finger as I finger tested it. I wonder what the clear liquid was? Of course I have never drained oil from a verified garage kept car that sat for 30-years or so before and do not know what kind of separation chemistries would be involved here. Would anyone care to comment on what this clear liquid was as well?
Perhaps since it sat so long the water was able to fractionate to the bottom of the pan and sat there. This would mean that at least I have a suspected head gasket. When I originally got under the car I noticed what appears to be new freeze plugs installed although the engine has sat so long that the antifreeze had evaporated out of the cooling system. Perhaps they were having overheating problems and started by removing the freeze plugs and pressure cleaning the heads and block out thinking this was the cause. The radiator found to be about 40% clogged up when it went into the radiator shop.
I bet that since it has had so long to sit that the water separated out of the oil and on to the bottom of the pan. That would explain the clean oil on the dip stick. ie. no milky oil on the stick or water bubbles!
Damn this means if I am correct that the heads should now come off. I was hoping to avoid this. I might know better after the oil analysis.
Anyone care to comment for the sake of discussion?
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Bump! Still looking...
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Thanks kaycee. I like learning by listening to peoples stories and explanations on things. Also these forums benefit by the give and take presented. I am in my mid 50's and have been a car guy my entire life and will continue to be until I am too stiff to stand or even roll over!
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No you guys are right about the metal gears and the advice about the pros and cons that I did not know about. I like posts that bounce things around a little and since I started this post I reserve the right to do just that.
So I have decided to go with the all metal gears since reading everyone's valued comments.
Yeah I tend use my gray matter from time to time but try not to unless it's needed since I only have so much of that stuff to go around.
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Just trying to see what Depth of knowledge in this regard is out there rather than just getting opinions.
My opinion on cost saving issues for Buick in 1957 as compared to 1971 when plastic started to rule the world are at opposite poles. Buick had just about practically and totally engineered a new car from anything it had before in 1957. A lot of firsts in this car. I believe these plastic gears were an attempt to improve overall performance and drive ability of the car rather than attempting to cut corners. I don't think that was in the mindset of Buick when they put this engine out what with the serious approach of mounting the engine and tilting it etc, etc.... as they did for overall resonance and balance.
You guys are great and have given me real world experiences and that is what I have been looking for. I mean that is what this board is about right?
I just bought my Buick this past spring and I am in the process of a complete service of the motor. The cam gear is NOS that I have on my shelf and could be anywhere between 25-40 years old. So what effect does part n package aging have on the brittleness of the plastic teeth overlay - that too could be a problem from the get go!
If it all goes to hell the cleanup would be a bummer considering I am now just taking my pan off and cleaning everything up, rebuilding my oil pump and installing a 1960 oil filter boss for spin-on filters. I am doing all of this to bring my motor out of it's long term sleep, since my motor has set for at least 30 years that I know of in a garage. Long enough to make black oil look very new and clean looking on the dip stick. Heck it even smelled new, but when I drained it, black as any used oil without of course the fuel smell which evaporated years ago. I also noticed as I slowly turned the drain plug out so I could watch in slow motion what was dripping out before I got the drain plug all the way out, I noticed clear liquid coming out. Maybe a couple table spoons. Like water but very clear. I let it sit like that for a minute or so and let this clear liquid drain out. Then as I turned the plug out toward the end oil started dripping and the clear liquid was gone. I let it drip like this for awhile and noticed no new clear liquid dripping. Then I removed the plug and drained into a container I will take to a guy out at my local airport for an analysis. I don't think the clear fluid was water. There had been no signs of water on the dip stick or even after I drained it water in the oil as milky or viscous. Just dark oil that still felt very lubricating to the finger as I finger tested it. I wonder what the clear liquid was? Of course I have never drained oil from a verified garage kept car that sat for 30-years or so before and do not know what kind of separation chemistries would be involved here. Would anyone car to comment on what this clear liquid was as well?
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Hey I hear you guys. However, it is my understanding that these gears are all aluminum, it is just that the tips are coated with a very high impact wear resin that lasts up to around 40,000-60,000 miles or more with normal driving as my Roadmaster is a cruise mobile or a highway car. No slam revs or redline line-locking take offs for my Roadmaster.
All I can see is here is if the resin chips off it may go into the pan but would be restricted and picked up by either the oil filter or oil pump screen. As far as the resin plastic going man to man with any of the internal hardened parts it will lose the match as plastic is soft.
I have a timing set with the OEM plastic coated/Aluminum cam gear and chain that I can install. Now one point is Aluminum is not as strong as iron I am told when it comes to gear teeth that is. This may or may not be true but look at all the drives on belt driven charger systems which I believe are all aluminum. Dragsters use this setup with 2000 horsepower.
But if it is true then an aluminum gear tooth could break causing the chain to go off track and then cause valve train/piston damage. But I do not know how high of an occurrence this would be or has historically been. It would be neat to find some service records of an old dealership and see if these coated timing gears were a real problem or not.
Now Buick engineered the engine to be balanced, smooth and quiet. Buick and Cadillac were the only GM engines to be balanced and blueprinted by the factory in those days. This aluminum gear is less rotating centrifugal mass, just like in an aluminum flywheel for faster revs. These facts could of by Buick engineering standards, led them to use the aluminum gear with the coated resin plastic material on the gear teeth for these concerns and others.
The Buick engine was noted as being very dependable. Is there any retired Buick mechanics out there that worked at dealerships back in the day, that could come forward and give some advice and story telling regarding this topic?
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I have been told and have replaced timing chains on other 60 and early 70 V8's when they broke and it seemed to be around the 60,000 mile mark. Got into the car and no start. That's how I would find out about a broken timing chain or sprocket. Never had one break on me while driving though.
With these high top puncher pistons in the stock nailhead at 10:1 compression if the sprocket broke then the valves would not open and if they stayed closed then no problem, but if for some reason a valve would stay open, then you could potentially have sudden impact with the piston head. I wonder if this would be a real possibility?? Also if the plastic did get into the system is is relatively soft would get caught in the filter screen of the pump and the oil filter. Even if it did go up against tempered internal engine parts it would'nt even win a shouting match not alone scar the internals ... so I would think. Any comments?
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Just about ready to do my install of timing gear/chain set. Egge tells me I can get the OEM plastic teeth/aluminum cam gear in the set or go with an all steel one. However the OEM one makes the engine run noticeably quieter than going the all steel gear route.
My question is has anyone done one and or the other in their install and what did you find?
Some rebuilders claim that the plastic teeth get brittle and end up in the pan. Now how long does that take and how many miles?
Furthermore, how does one go about determining that a timing chain and gears should be replaced by just looking at them?
Any input would be appreciated.
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So now even I am curious. What ever came of your Dyna Flow Transmission rebuilding service plan?
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Good input.
Here is my take on these things. Pot metal has a melting point of approximately 850 degrees F. That is too low for flame or arc. Cold set epoxies are only as strong as the ability of the substrate surface to hold onto the filler (epoxy) and maintaing a bond. Any torsional strains will shear and cleave this bond. Cold flash spot brazing can be used but again the pot metal is brittle and porous.
Pot metal expansion and contraction will be different from that of the filler or bond material used to fill crack. This will result in shear.
Most of these bars with cracks have them located at or near the bar's major flex points usually about 25 % inbound from the ends near where the hood meets the fenders or below where the bar connects to the grill assembly. Breakage here is usually the result of a pressure or sharp impact force from above. Incomplete non homogenous bonding will shear once again at these junctions or create stresses that will make the areas next to these non resilient bonds crack and or shear as well.
I will continue to look for one without major pitting or volcanic points as when striping these for chroming and knocking down the surface these result in deep holes in the pot metal that must be filled. The cooper can only fill so much regardless of the number of times you tank it if the holes are too deep. Some shops fill with bondo/metal filler in the back room when no one is looking, but this lacks the charge capability attraction to chemically bond copper and nickel to it's surface thereby setting up one for future flaking and or peeling.
I have through ignorance and or the fault of only myself, missed out on a couple good bars as of recent.
My quest continues however ..... so if anyone has one let me know.
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Yeah thanks, this is a good site as they have some nice solutions for hard to find parts.
I am still looking for a nice bar. So if anyone has one, let me know -
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Update: For future searchers, I have found through my research that the base mount unit off of a 1959-60 will work so you can install spin-on filters with this bolt-on update/conversion.
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John:
I sent you a PM
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Thank you for your replies. Let me know what you come up with. Yeah these engines do have a lot of iron mass to them indeed and that's a good point spitfire8.
If I leave it alone I just want to know which position the pendulum should be in for a fully open valve. I was working in this area of the car a few weeks ago and have left it for now. When I return to it, I will most likely take the header pipe off that leads to the muffler and take a peek!
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John: All though that posting would be of some interest, it is a fact that the Super/Roadmaster bar measures 67-1/2 inches from end to end. In addition this piece has gradual radius contouring on each end. Opposed to this is the Special/Century piece which is nearly 4-inches shorter and the ends have distinctive sharp turn downs at the ends so once you compare them there is no mistake which is which. I will try and post the part number for the Super/Roadmaster bar tomorrow and hope this helps you to that end.
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Really fine Roadmaster you have there TG.
By new correct muffler/resonator exhaust system do you mean the actual original system consisting of the long oval muffler, then just behind that a much smaller oval resonator and then just before the tail pipe comes out of the rear corner another smaller cylindrical resonator which had drain holes that would be pointed down, then about 12-inches of rear tail pipe coming out thru this chrome corner bumper piece - A correct 3-piece system per side? If so let me know where you found the third drained resonator as I can only find the muffler and front resonator 2-piece system.
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Topper - When I look at my speaker it has that same covering all those rounded wooden shortwave radios had when I was a kid. I am in my mid 50's and remember that stuff. Hold over from the forties and early fifties I guess. So yes it looks very period correct. Look at the black switch for my speaker selection, looks pre Heath Kit ( for those who remember those ) and definitely the fifties.
I purchased my car from the lady who bought it new and I am told took passionate care to give it regular good care dealer maintenance as shown on the photo of the maintenance tags.
For example below is a photo I took of one of the last maintenance service tags posted on the inner driver's door which the lady had performed on the car. I bought the car with 60,040 miles on the clock this past spring. These service tags are from 1968 & 70 and show the mileage at below 57.000 miles sometime in spring of 1968 and then again just below my current mileage in the fall of 1970 just before Thanksgiving of that year. She rarely drove the car but maintained it apparently very well. Therefore I believe everything about this car is right smack correct and dated on the money.
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If I remember right from my readings in one of my Buick manuals, if the push/pull side lever is maladjusted it puts the toggle line at the firewall mounted vacuum motor in a position to perform this task. Since you can cause this action to be performed as designed it follows that if the adjustment is out of whack, then this could be the cause.
Hope this helps.
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Grandpa: I like your flush gun idea. Tell me is there any reason you hooked the air line first to the handle then the water coming up underneath rather than the other way around? I suppose the water coming up from below would be better atomized the way you have as it would implode into the air stream and be carried off as a dense air blast?
Also... I take it your using a garden hose sprayer, so where did you get the "T" fitting which attaches the water hose to the spray handle? It looks like a propane tank fitting?
Please explain, as I am putting something together to flush my block and heads out in a similar fashion but using a different approach in my gun design.
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Jim:
I like the detailed good looks of your trunk area. I'll have to work on mine. The period suitcase is a nice touch.
Yes, as I progress into my Buick, I am finding it in overall well preserved condition. Detailing the inside and the outside got me real familiar with it. So while considering everything life can throw at you it is in remarkably original and overall good condition on the inside. Considering the variables and such, if the older lady who was the original owner had not just kept it in the garage and had let others use it or had it sat outside, then it would be a different story all together. Yes, truly almost a miracle.
I need to repaint on the outside, detail the frame, engine bay and bring everything back to life. This will take some joyful effort. The seat foams are toast as is the foam on the clove box. I will unfortunately have to redo the seats which will stray from my keep-as-is theme, but it is necessary. Thats the original carpet and it is in really good condition. But your right, all the pieces are there for me to work with.
You know when I first got the car you really would not know that I could of brought back the interior as I did. That alone really surprised me. I was able to bring back the outside chrome for the most part. It had sat in one garage for 30-years. I am guessing a pretty good tight location that preserved it. Then it got moved to a new garage that had very little ventilation for about 8 years and that caused some degradation to set in.
Keep me posted.
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Sorry for the delay in getting back onto my own post. Gosh, I could not for some odd reason, find this post the other day and thought it lost, so I posted a new inquiry into getting a bar. I have had some similar issues with my browser and thought this may be par for it.
Anyways, thank you all for your replies and offers to help.
So, If anyone of you that responded to my request still have a good bar and want to sell it to me please let me know. The Super / Roadmaster bars measure 67-1/2 inches long from end to end. The Special / Century bars are about 4-inches shorter.
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I am still interested in obtaining a Grill Bar. So anyone out there that has one let me know. Contact me so we can arrange to send some photos.
Thanks in advance!
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Jim:
Like your photos. That is one nice clean looking Buick!
Hey thanks for your comments on my interior. What you see is what came from the factory. My Roadmaster has never been redone. All I did was spend actually around 85-man hours in cleaning the interior and exterior right down to using toothpicks & cotton swabs when necessary - but at the end of the day it's all original.
The accessory knob you refer to was for that year, "Speed-Minder". ( This may be a place where the convertibles had an additional knob for the top but not sure on this) By turning the knob that would be located there as on mine, you can adjust a speed where in turn when you reached that speed a buzzer goes off letting you know you are going over the speed you have adjusted for. The dial for this is located in the lower left hand corner of the speedometer cluster if so fitted from the factory. It was standard on all Roadmasters and optional on other models. I have yet to complete taking my Buick out of it's 40-year hibernation sleep and therefore have not even driven the car yet, but if how things have turned out so far for me and this car then, well let's just say I have a sweet feeling that everything is going to be O.K.
The rear speaker is covered in a speaker cloth and the speaker ring is metal. The rear deck on my Roadmaster is covered in a textured material which can be seen in the photo.
The exterior color of my car is a solid Antique Ivory of that year. The interior is Interior Code 731 which is Antique Ivory Cordaveen (Early Vinyl) Black Cordaveen and Broad Tooth Black/Silver Nylon Fabric.
My trunk carpet is out of the car and is being cleaned. It is grayish taupe with blue thread detail in small squares.
The headliner is a perforated ivory cordaveen material as shown with stainless runners which the Roadmasters had.
I forgot to get those hood latch photos out to you and will as soon as I can.
Hope all this helps!
Need Opinions on what is the clear liquid in oil change
in Technical
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Thanks for that. I am going to drop the pan and examine the entire inner case and crank area. Kinda a mystery about the new freeze plugs. I think my hunch on that is correct as well. I will ask my oil guy as to about how long it would take oil to separate to this state and see what he says too.