nsbrassnut

A couple more pictures to show that the conditioner did start to work its way into the leather. The Stanley used a cobra grained coated surface dyed leather. The coating doesn't make it easy for conditioner to soak in, but it does work its way in slowly. I temporarily removed the flaps that go over the jump seats so that I can do some repairs to worn sections after they are cleaned. You can see the back side of the leather in these pictures and the discoloration of the back side of the leather is the conditioner soaking in. The back side was all one light colour before I started.

Hi All For now, my first steps are to clean and inspect the Stanley. The basic car I feel is a solid survivor car which shows its history. The goal for this one is going to focus on a mechanical service and restoration as needed to make it operational again. And to preserve the original interior and ancient repaint as they are part of the car’s history. I would rather have the scruffy appearance and maintain its history than have something shiny without the story. So, step one has been to condition and clean the leather upholstery. I did some research on methods and decided to try out the Leatherique method. It received some favourable comments here on the forum and I liked their approach of treating first and cleaning second. I think that this will leave the leather cleaner and less prone to being sticky than some of the other methods. The Stanley’s leather was well dried out and starting to get stiff so I wanted to start there. The first coat of Leatherique soaked right in and hardly showed afterward. The directions said that it would leave a gummy coating which would then be cleaned off with the cleaner afterward. Well, it was so dry that it took a few coats before the gummy residue was produced. I ended up trying out a modified approach for the this first time cleaning. A coat of conditioner, wait a couple hours, add a second coat, wait overnight add a third coat, then after a few hours clean with the cleaner. The leather was dry enough that much of the normally exposed surface was still dry to the touch while the surfaces that were somewhat protected did produce the gummy surface. The cleaner and a stiff bristle brush then cleaned off the residue and produced an even looking result. The leather didn’t feel much more flexible, but I do think that it is somewhat improved then when I started. It definitely did look better afterwards. Here are some pictures of the process on the back seat. The first picture a “before”. The second after two or three coats of conditioner. You can see a difference in the look, the shiny portion is where the gummy finish was produced. The dull areas are where the conditioner soaked right in and the leather surface was still dry. The last is after cleaning with the cleaner and brush. The cleaning cloth was black after a a seat and had to be replaced a couple times before the full job was done. I liked that this approach left the leather surface clean and dry. There should be little chance of conditioner coming off on clothes in the future. It took a few days to go over the full interior and door panels. It’s a large car and its nearly all leather. I am going to let it sit for a month or so and then try another application of conditioner and a cleaning and see if it makes some more improvement in the appearance and feel of the leather.

For comparison with the Imperial front seats. My Cadillac front seat backs only had three springs in them. You can see the witness marks in the back of the upholstery. These seats are similar single person bucket front seats. The back cushions don't need to be very stiff or have too many springs. They only take a small load when you lean back. Unlike the seat cushions which have to hold your full weight when you sit down. And a word of warning. You will end up using a LOT of horsehair in the padding. Its very light and fluffy as delivered and it compresses a lot before you start to get a good cushion. I spent as nearly as much on the horse hair for padding as for the leather on the seats.

Some comments on sizing the spring assemblies for the body. The amount of space to leave depends on how much padding you are considering for the seat backs. But at the same time, remember that the factory rarely put any amount of padding on the seat back where the seat cushion butts up against it. Why spend money on materials where they aren't needed. I think I left about 2 inches between the seat frame and the seat back. But I still ended up with a fairly tight fitting cushions when they were installed. Some pictures of the rear seat cushion frame in the Cadillac body during a test fit. And one of the rear back upholstery after installation which may help show the spacing left for the seat cushion at the bottom.

Hi Alsfarms On my Cadillac I think I compressed the springs about an inch or so. Installed they are basically level with the top of the wood seat frame. The upholstery "cushion" installed on top is about an inch thick when the canvas/horsehair/leather sandwich is installed. Here are some pictures of the metal upholstery fittings used. The one on the top is used to hold the mounting wire on the wood frame. The lower one (not used on that seat) is for either connecting springs to edge wire or joining edge wire. Notice how they are paper coated inside to reduce squeaks in use. Another reason to go to an upholstery supplies shop or website for materials. In addition here are some pictures of a front seat bottom cushion from my '22 Stanley which still has it original upholstery. This one is also a wood seat base, but is the other style, a "flat" base instead of a "box" base. Straight edge wire is placed across the top side of the wood base, then the springs are clipped to that wire. With this design there is a formed square edge wire frame that is then clipped to the top of the springs to make the assembly. Hopefully you can see the edge wire in the close up view. The springs are also in this case chained to limit side to side movement. More commonly used are cord or wire clips. I haven't seen chains used before. I think that this style of base spring cushion is more common than the "box" frame like in my '05 Cadillac and became more common by 1910 or so and I think were in use as late as the early 1930s. Eventually full all wire seat cushion spring assembly took over and the wood was phased out. Long (wide) full width base springs of this style have some additional brace wires installed from the rear bottom base frame to the front top edge wire to help keep the front top edge wire straighter in use. When installing the upholstery cover material on this spring it helps to partially pre-compress the spring using boards and clamps. I have seen old factory pictures where the used a special foot operated clamping device with the cushion assembly upside down on a table jig to the job. Pre-compressing the springs when installing the material makes it easier to pull the material over the sides and tack them down evenly without pulling hard on the material and distorting or damaging it. Then when the compression is released the cushion forms up and is firmer with the springs slightly preloaded. By the way, this is done by turning the upholstery sandwich upside down, placing the spring in the correct location, then compressing it, then folding up the material and attaching it to the spring base. An example of this is in the last picture. That one is from when I was installing a Ford T kit cover on the all wire front seat cushion. It had to be pre-compressed to install the cover or it would tear during installation. The process isn't difficult, but can be tedious. It helps to practice on some spare materials first to work out what works best for you. Have fun with it. Jeff

For Jack What are we that are want to preserve, reanimate, repair or restore these old items. We are dreamers. Who else looks at old rusty metal and rotten wood and only sees the shiny original vehicle that it was and think of what it could be again. Depending on what we started with and on our individual skills and resources the process could be anywhere from a full restoration to a mild recommissioning and anything in between. So far, I have done a bit of each. A partial restoration, a couple full restorations and will soon be starting a recommissioning. The one below for me started as a dreamy vision of what it was when I found and picked up this old Cadillac way back while in university. A little over 30 years for the dream to come true and for me to get to take it for a drive. So, keep on dreaming and plugging away at that Fargo and all the rest of them. We are behind you and looking forward to the updates. Jeff

I would recommend looking for and at as many pictures of similar period cars as yours to see how they were done. I believe that most use wood seat bases at the time and the seat backs used only a few springs which were often attached directly to the body. The construction of the seat spring assemblies varies. Some with a wooden frame base with wire frames to attach the springs to. Others used more of a wood platform base with the springs raised above the base. When the springs are above the base, then an edge wire frame needs to made and attached to the top of the springs. Later seat base spring assemblies moved towards all metal with metal lower frames or edge wire and then upper edge wire frames and the springs attached to both. Depending on the period and builder I think most earlier designs used open springs. I believe that Marshall springs, the ones enclosed in burlap or cloth didn't come into general use until later and mostly in medium and higher priced cars. I would recommend a visit to an upholstery supplies shop if you can find one near you. They may be able to help with advice, materials and tools that could help you with your project. Here are some pictures to compare. An original seat base from a 1905 Cadillac with original upholstery and the replica seat base that I made for mine.

Hi All Last items from the tickle trunk for now. The last owner kept some of the his more interesting correspondence in the files for the car. The receipt for his 1948 purchase was still in there too. Here are two that I found most interesting. Those in the steam part of the hobby will likely recognize the names. Fred Marriot, the one and only who the previous owner did get to meet once. And Clarence Marshall, whom I have learned was a pioneer in the movement collecting, restoring and preserving steam cars and especially Stanleys. So according to the rules of the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, I can now claim a second-degree connection to Fred Marriot. Isn’t that neat! 😁 And my first issue of the SACA newsletter arrived today. Its now in the book bag for the next coffee shop reading session. Enjoy. Jeff

Hi All Another item from the Stanley's tickle trunk. In the files were these notes from the original owner of the Stanley. For comparison, the factory cost of the car was about $3,800 US dollars. By the time it landed in Glace Bay, Nova Scotia, the landed cost with shipping, exchange and taxes was about $6,500 Canadian dollars. And this at a time when a Ford touring could be had for well under $1,000 Canadian. Its not often that you have some information about your car from the original owner 100 years later. Enjoy.

I found and checked a website with Waltham numbers today and got the same results estimating 1917 for the watch. I'm wondering now if the circle might have a dial underneath that shows roughly how long the watch would last. Such as green for fully wound, yellow part way and the red for needs winding. Its not presently running and I don't want to wind it too much after reading about the work required to repair one above. So, I'll leave it along and on the shelf where it looks good.

Ed You just made my week. 🙃 Thanks Jeff

Thank you for the very educational description of cleaning and repair the Waltham clock. After reading this one, I think that I'll leave the one that I have on the shelf alone. This one has the second hand, and another item which I assume may be a day / night indicator. Perhaps you can provide additional information on the period and model that it may be.

And another couple items from the Tickle Trunk (a Canadian reference 😊). A couple of NOS Stanley bits that came with the car. There is a small wooden box with various small bits and several envelopes that have or in more cases had, original factory spares that were ordered in by the original owner. The Studebaker dealer was the local Stanley representative also I suspect. I was able to match the parts numbers of a few items to the 735 Parts Book, 1919 version. Others I couldn't find in the parts book, but they might be listed in later books or may have been later parts. When was the last time you saw original NOS Stanley anything these days?

Hi Jeff I have been collecting steam car reference material for a while. And the Stanley came with a folder containing a couple well worn original owner's manuals and a few reprints that the he collected. I checked the folder and my library and found that I have most of the books that you have shown. I do have the Old Time Steam Cars, one copy came with the Stanley and the Clymer The Modern Steam Car that I picked up in the past. Plus one or two that may be less common as well. Several years ago when visiting Detroit we went to the big King(?) used book store and I found a later steam car reference book titled "The Steam Powered Automobile - An Answer to Air Pollution". The interesting part of that book and why I ended up purchasing it was the stamp inside the book "Chrysler Corporation - Engineering Library". Fun to have the double automobile link. 😉 I'll keep your generous offer in mind as I get further along with cataloguing what I do have. In the meantime here are some pictures of the Stanley literature that came with it and some of the steam related books from my collection. Thanks from another Jeff

Hi All In response to recent comments. The Stanley museum is on my list to check out. They have some literature reprints that I would like to get for my file. I have also seen their newsletter in the past and it is good. I will be watching for a steam tour in the New England area sometime that I could attend as a spectator / apprentice to get some first hand lessons. Most of New England is within a long days drive from home which makes a lot more practical for me than farther down into the US. I only get to Hershey now and then, but will watch closer next time I have the chance for some steam car people. For A Woolf, I'll send a PM soon. In the meantime I spent an hour going through the last file box that came with the Stanley. It was full of old issues of SACA magazines back as far as the 1960's. So far sorted by decade. Next step to sort and file by year. 🙂

Hi Again Next update. Yes, I am new to ownership and operation of steam cars, but I have been following and researching them for some time. I also spent my engineering career with the local electric utility in the high pressure steam electric power plant field. There is both good and bad in that note. Good in that I know something about what I am getting into, and at the same time, bad in that I know what I am getting into. Many years ago, I did get a neat ride and introduction from the late Art Hart and his Stanley at a HCCA tour. So, I have some idea what to look into and will need to be done. For Ansacle, yes, I joined SACA through their website last month. I did get an electronic confirmation of my payment, but haven’t yet seen anything from them. Hopefully that will show up in a month or two when the next newsletter comes out. There are no other steam car owners within a several hundred miles of me so getting first hand help and advice is a bit harder. I would be interested in becoming pen pals with some other Stanley owners who may be able to help with advice in the future. The previous owner was also a long term member of SACA back to the mid ‘60’s. He and the car have been listed in the SACA roster for some time. It’s the only Stanley listed from Nova Scotia, Canada. The car also came with several years of SACA back issues for me to start reading. He also included some of the SACA literature reprints that he collected over the years. I have to finish checking what came with it with what is still available from the SACA library and look into ordering some items to fill in the reference files. The last Stanley cars left the factor in 1924. The company was purchased and reorganized into the Steam Vehicle company and operated for another year or perhaps two before being shut down and production ended. Here are a couple of the early entries from Stanley’s files. One is where the previous owner started to look for a steam car locally in 1947-48. Included in the list is a reference to Dr. Grant from whom he eventually purchased a car. Another reference is to a Mr. Bligh that was not too far away from him. The Bligh lead didn’t pan out, but the files do include a letter to Mr. Bligh from Stanley Steam Car Inc in 1927 which lists available spares from the Stanley Steam Car Inc company at that time. Enjoy and drive safe.

I think that the 2 cylinder clue might have made it a bit too easy. Yes, it’s a Stanley Steam Car. A 1922, Model 735B 7 passenger touring car. A couple of pictures of it are include below. Overall, it’s a well preserved mostly original car. The original owner put about 5,900 miles on it up to 1948. The speedometer broke about the time the second owner got it. He put new Firestone non-skid tires on it about 1950, replacing two of the original tires at the time. Those tires are still on it and the tread is well worn down so it he may have put another 5,000 or so miles on it over the 75 years that he had it. Those non-skids don’t wear well. So, the total mileage may be 10,000 to 15,000 miles. It was repainted in 1950 and the paint is showing its age. It could easily be mistaken as “original” paint by most viewers. The interior is original and in good condition for the age and the tattered original top is still there also, although the rear window curtain is long gone. The original side curtains are still under the seat though. It also came with some of his correspondence file notes. The files include notes from his original search for a steam car (47-48) and his purchase receipt from 1948. There are also some neat letters from his correspondence with a couple of early steam car collectors and parts suppliers that he contacted for advice and information when he started out. There is even one box of some miscellaneous small bits and pieces which include some NOS Stanley parts that the original owner purchased from the local dealer. When was the last time you saw original Stanley parts complete with their stock tag and price! The last owner did get part way with a mechanical servicing around 2012-13 where a new Bourdon boiler was installed along with some replacement plumbing and secondary pressure tanks and an inspection and service of the engine. But it has been sitting since 2013-14 and will need all of this opened up, inspected, tested and serviced before any attempts at firing it up will be done. In the meantime, I’m starting work on conservation of the interior and paint along with learning more about how to service and operate the car and sorting through the small pile of spares and left over parts that came with the car. So, stay tuned. I hope to share some of the things that I have found interesting in the files with the forum members here. And I will also be looking for some advice along the way as well. 🙂

Thank you for the comments and suggestions. I agree with them all. If you can afford it and have a place to store it at a minimum, then bring it home. If not, then its better to say thank you and walk away. Here is the next part of the story. I did call and to visit right after the letter arrived. I did my homework on valuation and market for the car and brought along my notes. We had a good visit back and a look over the car. I left the information I collected with him and he would get back to me. About a week later he called and named a price which was very close to what I came up with myself. But after a long and sleepless night I called back and said I couldn’t make it work. It was just a bit more than I could handle and still be able to work on it afterward. We were both disappointed. I didn’t even make a counter offer at the time as I wanted to stay on good terms and not get anyone upset. A few weeks later he and his wife came to our PreWar club summer tour dinner last August that was near his place They did have an interest to see the car remain in the province where it had been since new. I told them my situation, I could afford the buy the car, or to make it roadworthy, but not both We had another good visit and his wife said to keep in touch. Later that fall I was chatting with another local collector that suggested I might be able to get the car at a lower price than had been previously discussed. And at the same time, he expressed interest in an old motorcycle and some other collectables that I had which might work out to enough to offset the cost of the car. So, I made another appointment to visit the owner and his wife. Over lunch I made my case and left an offer which was a fair bit less than the original asking price. I didn’t ask for an answer then asking him to think it over. A few days later I received another note saying that my offer was accepted. I then followed up with my friend and we came to an agreement on the motorcycle and other stuff which would cover the cost of the car. Over the next couple weeks, a space was freed up in the garage and arrangements to pick up the car were made. It came home in late November. I am now slowly cleaning and inspecting the car to see just how deep a hole I may have gotten myself into. 🥴 The last owner did a repaint and replaced the tires in 1950 and drove it regularly up until about 1964. It has spent most of the time since about 1964 in storage and was partially overhauled enough to be operational for a while in 2013 before going back into storage. But overall, it’s still more of an original survivor car than one that has been “restored”. The car is an American built 1922 touring car (brand to be named later) that was delivered new in Nova Scotia, Canada. At the time its landed cost here was equal to 6+ Ford model Ts. The second owner purchased it in 1948 and kept it for the next 75 years before it came to me. It’s a 130 inch wheelbase, 3,800 lbs. (dry), 7 passenger touring car. Production for 1922 was under 500 units. And with all that, it still has only 2 cylinders. 😉 So based on my limited description in the first post and the above. What do you think it may be?

Well, what have I gotten myself into this time………… I have enjoyed the blogs of other restoration projects here on the Forum and have both learned a lot and gotten encouragement from them. So, I thought I would start one for one of my projects. The details of it will follow later. Have any of you heard the story about the dog that chased cars as they drove by. He barked and chased after them but they cars always got away. Then one day one slowed down a bit and he jumped and bit onto the bumper and held on. Then the dog rolled his eyes and thought, now what do I do! I recently found myself in a similar position. I think many of us have a wish list of cars of cars that they are keeping an eye on and hope that they may get a chance at one someday. And this one may fit into several recent discussions that have popped up elsewhere on the forum this year. Things like how nickel era cars are dropping in value. Project cars may be affordable, but restoration costs may be prohibitive. Costs for spares and tires are creeping up. Those “expensive” cars that have been out of our price range before are coming down, but at the same time, there are fewer people with the same interest to share them with. Keeping in touch and following a car of interest for years waiting to see what might happened. Retirement and reduced cash flow can bring limitations. And a car with a back story is special. So, what would you do when this happens to you………. - The car that has been number 1 on your long term watch list, - Has an interesting back story and only two owners since new, Has been out of your budget range in the past, - Is a nickel era car that is dropping in value, - That always had a low factory production numbers, - Has a high maintenance hour to operating hour ratio, - Needs a set of very expensive tires, - Was last operated 10 years ago before going back on blocks, - Will need an extensive mechanical inspection and service before any attempt at operation. And then a letter arrives from the very long time owner that the car is coming up for sale. What would you do………………..

David's comments are good. If you have access to some original material for patterns you may be able to take some rough measurements to start at. Find a flexible cloth measuring tape like that used for sewing and sometimes upholstery. Its very flexible and you may be able to get a rough measurement of the distance between the buttons on the back and then the one of the front by measuring over the full pleat down to each button. A piece of string will also work with a marker to mark the spots then measure between them afterward. This is why most of us need to do some test samples to figure out what patterns produce the results we are looking for. Each project is different and you will have to find what works best for you.

That's a good looking upholstery project. I think some of the difference is the period that the original was built in. I think the very earlier cars used mainly all hand stuff and folded pleats. Then as production ramped up and the factories got busier other methods started to be used more. Such as sewing the pleats between the buttons, prelaid stuffing and hand folding the top and bottom on installation. Then on to all pre-sewn pleats and stuffing. So if you have an original pattern or a reference to follow try using that method. The challenge can still be working out the pattern. :^)

Hi All Like usual, I remember a few items that I forgot to mention later on. Backing material. I found that painter's drop cloth from Home Depot was a close match to the old material and is readily available an not too expensive. And it really helps to get some good tools to help out. Especially good quality shears for cutting material. I went to a local upholstery supplies shop and got a good set of shears and tack hammer (with one end magnetic). They also had some other useful stuff handy like cardboard strip edging (used to get straight edges in folder over material that is tacked onto a frame), edge wire (like music wire) for making seat spring edges. Hog ring pliers and hog rings. Etc.. Most of this is also available on-line, but it can be useful to see it in person and pick out what you need. At the shop may have some suggestions on how to do the work and use the tools. So go have fun with it.

Last comment. I do get to have "bragging rights". None of the pleats are sewn in my Cadillac. The only stitching in the entire interior was the pattern on the door panels. Just like the factory did it.

The upholstery sandwich is then placed on the back of the seat, or onto the seat spring and aligned the way that you want it. Then start in the middle of the front and back of seat or seat back and start stapling or tacking the sandwich in place, while also adding more padding and manually folding the pleats at the top and bottom as you attach the sandwich. Pay extra attention at the corners where you may end up with more material that you expected and then make some “deeper” folds to take up the extra material. For wide seat backs, some may be made in sections. Such as one large sandwich that may be made of two pieces of leather joined in the middle along one of the fold seams (what I did on mine). Others may have used one sandwich in the middle and then two more, one per side where the seat back wraps around the side. Another thing to test out for your project if you don’t have the old material for patterns. I did one front seat back at least 4 times in vinyl with slight changes in the pattern each time until I worked out the patterns that produced the results that I wanted. And the choice of vinyl makes a big difference is how it goes. There are some thin flexible vinyls out there that can be used for practice. Or if you want, the first try could be with cloth for both the backing and the cover as a “proof of concept” test. If you are careful, you can re-use the prong buttons after each trial too. They get expensive to use only once. My Cadillac originally used plain black painted prong buttons. These used to be easily available and fortunately for me I bought enough for my project in advance before they were discontinued by the supplier up here. Most prong buttons now are those designed with caps for covering the tops with matching material to the upholstery. Pre-covered prong buttons with black vinyl are available from some old car parts suppliers which can save some time. You could also just install plain black covers on the prong buttons and then paint them black before installation. Warning, the cost of buttons adds up fast too. I think there was around 200 buttons on my Cadillac and I think they are getting to be over $1 each now. My one car upholstery project ended up taking one entire winter, but I was pleased with the result and I get to say “I did it” too. Hopefully my description is not too confusing, but enough to help you with ideas on how to approach your project. Have fun.

The backing pattern is laid out flat and reflects the pattern that you want when finished. My original sections appeared to have the leather tight against the backing so I went with a similar approach. The upper leather layer needs to allow for the bulge and fold of the leather. So, for the top I learned to make a slightly “expanded” pattern for spacing between the buttons. I think I ended up expanding by ½” in both vertical and horizontal directions for this project. Each expansion has an effect, but they don’t behave quiet the same. And also, the seats are somewhat cone shaped and what looks like a straight flat line on a finished seat can actually be a curved line on the patterns when you are making the cushions. A difference pattern expansion factor may be needed for your project to get the results that you want. I found it helps to make the backing and cover patterns on large sheets of craft paper. Then you can punch small holes in the paper where you want the prong buttons to go and then transfer the pattern to the backing cloth with a marker and to the leather with chalk. That makes it easy to then “connect the dots” with the prong buttons when joining the layers. This approach also makes it easier to make both sides the same. Make a pattern for one side then flip it over for marking the other side to make a mirror image from side to side. I pinned the leather and backing together with the prong buttons before adding any padding. Then added the horsehair manually to the center area of the cushion between the buttons. The padding can be pushed in by a mix of using fingers and some dowels of different lengths. The padding on the top and bottom above and below the last row of buttons was added when the cushion was installed on the body. Back in the day they may have been able to purchase horse hair in already in a sized layer and pre-compressed that could be rolled out on the backing before the leather is place over it. That would have made it much easier. Mine came in big green garbage bags and trying to produce an even layer by hand didn’t go well. So manually stuffing each pleat with fingers and a dowel is slower, but got there in the end. I laid everything out on a large table covered with a sheet to help make it easier to work on. This way you can also pat down the sandwich to help with the forming of the padding and pleats while also keep the backing flat. And is amazing how much the horse hair compresses when stuffed in. By the time I was done, the cost of the amount of horse hair that I used was nearly as much as the leather! But the neat finding I did see happen. If you get the patterns right, the pleats and the folds in the leather (or vinyl) start to form themselves as you add the stuffing. Then all you need to do is make sure that all the folds are in the same direction, such as “down”. Tongue depressors are good to have handy to help with pushing the leather folds in the right directions that you want. For most interiors there is a pattern to the folds which I would describe as “fold down”. The idea being that if you wipe or brush down the upholstery you are brushing “over” the fold and not brushing the dirt into the folds. A couple pictures of the rear seat back are included below showing a couple steps along the way. The last two are the finished rear seat and a picture of the original upholstery in another ’05 that provided pictures to help me with the process. At time some of the pleats looked odd as the formed, but when compared to the original or pictures of other originals many of the same details showed up in the pictures once the covers were installed.