Packard enthus.

Dave - how's your sense of humor...may I tease you about that flat statement of yours ? You have EIGHT '38 - '39 Packard Twelves that do NOT have pressurized cooling systems ? That is interesting. Seriously, in fairness to Dave, for some reason Packard's technical writers were bashful about the new pressurized radiator filler cap and neck system for 1938; for some reason they did not SPECIFICALLY use the term "pressurized cooling system" in their literature when referring to this change. Hopefully, Dave wont mind being teased - should I suggest that I guess the radiator upper "filler-neck" in my own '38 Packard Twelve was custom-built just for me to beat up on Dave with, (as was the many dozens I have worked on down thru the years? ). My own raditor, and all the '38 Twelves and Super Eights I've seen, differ from 1937 and earleir "Senior" Packard production, in that they have the bottom "seal plate" for the spring-loaded pressure cap to "bottom" on, clearly was designed for a pressure radiator cap. What appeared to be original pressure cap on it when I got it in late '54 started to leak pressure as its sealing rubber went bad - replaced it several times over the years. Can I tease Dave about that special "custom-built just for my own Packard Twelve and the many dozens I have worked on", publication by Packard, its "tech. specs" known as the "1938 DATA BOOK FOR THE PACKARD TWELVE AND SUPER EIGHT" which refers (see Pp. 33 of the tech. specs. on the cooling system) "the air to boil temperature has been raised almost 10 degrees higher which gives cooling capacity for a much wider range of driving conditions"... C'mon...Dave..how do you think you raise the boiling temp. of water..!

c'mon - lets be honest. People today LIKE the words "antique" and "classic". People like these words because our culture has changed - as we've moved away from a manufacturing culture, where "precision of speech" had value, and gone downward towards being a third world country where educational standards dont matter, because the manufacturing jobs arent around any more, why BOTHER with accuracy. Of COURSE the words "classic" and "antique" are now tossed about with NO interest or concern for their meaning, other than the people who use them, have something to sell. Some months ago, I noted when I got off the freeway to get a bite, I had some "classic coke" with my "classic chicken". A "Caprice Classic" was parked outside, near the "Classic Upholstery" shop (which was next door to "Classic Plumbing". Hey, if a guy has a used Chevrolet and wants to call it a "classic"...this IS a free country - after all, I just the other month I rented a NEW Chevrolet (believe it was a re-badged Toyota) that had the word "CLASSIC" on the trunk deck-lid. Getting back to the question in the original "post" - the guy is RIGHT. New white walls were NOT available to a new car purchaser right after World War Two. But I have yet to see a post-war car that is now accepted by the Classic Car Club Of America without them. Hell..I LIKE white-walls. Sure, my own NON CLASSIC (please dont call my '38 Packard V-12 a "classic" any more - please call it what it is..an old used car..!) (let the guys with the used Plymouths and Fords have the word "classic" now...) did NOT come with white-walls. Yes..a few of them did. But as we've noted in other discussions, the pre war era was a VERY conservative one. And as the 1930's drew to a close, car colors became even more somber. SOME did order their cars "flashy" with white walls and colors other than black, dark green, or dark blue. Most did not.

Dave is only partially correct - in fact, for the 1938-39 production, all Twelves had full pressure cooling. '38 - '39 Twelve radiators carry the same part number. Now, in fairness to Dave, the 1937 and all earlier Packard Twelves did NOT have pressurized cooling systems. Why is this interesting ? The introduction of presssurized cooling systems permitted higher running temps. The faster you can get a motor up to operating temp, and the higher you can set that temp, the more effecient. The introduction of pressure radiators was but one of a whole bunch of incredible technological advances interrupted by World War Two, that gave us our modern short stroke "high rpm - severe duty capable" motors we have today.

the simple answer to your question is "no" - "new" oils will not cause any problems for cars with "slider" / flat tappets. Remember, earlier oils served us well without the "high pressure" anti-friction additives that have been a part of consumer-grade motor oils for the past few years. Remember, the so called "anti-friction" oils were added to improve gas mileage - not to solve any problems unique to so called "sliding" or "flat tappet" cam followers. True, high quality engines have had roller cam followers since at least as far back as World War One. True, "lesser" quality (meaning low and medium price car engines, where no-one ever thought they'd be run much past 100,000 mi, were not equipped with rollers. These days, even the lower-price motors now seem to have roller tappets. I am curious - even my Toyota now has roller tappers - does anyone know of any major manufacturer today who hasnt yet adopted roller tappets. Again, we consumer-grade motor operators ran up an awful lot of mileage on the ore-anti friction" additive oils. Now, let me qualify the above - SOME engines, such as the 300 and 500 series Lycoming aircraft engines, have a special problem where the so called "anti friction" additives seem to help a little. The reason for this is the location of the cam-shaft - very high in the engine, where they dont get the kind of oil bath that a cam-shaft in the standard location gets. If you happen to have a motor with the cam-shaft way high in the engine, you might be wise to use an "anti friction" additive.

to keep that "four hundred fifty dollar Duesenberg" price in perspective, remember, to get the equiv. REAL value in today's purchasing power, you'd have to multiply that amount by roughly fifteen. So that would be roughly seven grand! Weren't too many of us old car buffs who had nearly SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS to spend on a used car, and if we did...our families would probably have had us locked up !

see my response to your other "post" about while-walls.... Asparagus.

You raise a good point. Let me explain why your point is so valid. When we formulated our judging rules, the idea of a post war car participating in the Classic Car Club of America, if proposed at all, would have been considered at best laughable. Our NATIONAL HANDBOOK was more specific - down thru the years, the idea of "dilluting" our Club with such cars was described as "tantamount to destroying the purpose of our Club". Over the years, whenever the idea of adding post-war cars to our Club was proposed, surveys by the National Board confirmed the overwhelming majority of our members rejected the idea. Therefore, the idea of taking off points for "authenticity" never developed for cars that were beyond our concern. In later years, people who wanted to buy, sell, and operate post war cars under the auspices of the Classic Car Club of America correctly recognized the best way to do that, was go on a membership drive. A Club that did very well down thru the years with 1,500 to 2,500 members suddenly expanded to four, five, and now around SIX THOUSAND members. For the past several years, the people who now control the Club have even gone so far as to print under our traditional "National Policy Statements" (some of which I wrote personally !) that these "may no longer represent current Club policy". I dont think you are being realistic about what the current car club scene is all about. In earlier times, the public was at best disinterested in Classic Car Club events. Our judging rules and events had no conception of the idea of pleasing a crowd. Our criteria, reduced to its simplest terms, was historical accuracy, i.e. is "how closely does the car represent its condition on delivery day as a new car". Of course even then we had to make compromises with what was available to re-condition our cars. We most certainly DID take points off for "over restoration". It would not have occured to us to have "People's Choice" type awards, because the only people at our events were people interested in historical accuracy. Of COURSE you are correct that most people during the REAL classic era shunned white walls and wild paint jobs. Anyone who has seen photographs of that era, or knows the actual production figures, knows most cars, especially the more expensive luxury cars of the upper classes, were ordered a solid dark color, typically black. Many of us have seen the old FORTUNE MAGAZINE ads of Packard and other manufacturers, and the wild color combinations. I have probably owned, or worked on, or driven, or monkeyed around with, or seen on the street when they were in service, as many REAL classic era automobiles as anyone who reads these forums. I NEVER saw one painted up like those FORTUNE ads, and I rarely saw white walls. And as you note, the immediate post war era saw NO NEW CARS WITH WHITEWALLS...NONE..ZIP ! But let's be fair. The Classic Car Club Of America has, along with other car groups, changed with the times. If you put on a car show for the public, you have a duty, and they have a right, to expect just that...a SHOW. Of COURSE a brightly colored car with the "shine" of the latest high tech "two" or "three part" paint, with white-walls is going to attract more interest and please more people, than a solid dark colored car restored and equipped the way they REALLY were when new. You can laugh or cry about this, but good manners and a respect for the fact that times have changed, suggests you accept it without making further fuss about it.

yes - your price "post" confirms wha I remember from those later years of the 50's - as I noted above, the value of big classics (again, referring to the super-luxury cars of the late 20's thru the late 1930's) really took off at the end of that era. We early members of the Classic Car Club Of America must "take the blame" for making the public aware that these big luxury cars were worth saving, and thus incresing their value. Even as late as the early 1960's, there was still a lot of ridicule for anyone saving a big old "super luxury" car - there are at least THREE "I Love Lucy" episodes where "Lucy" demonstrates how dingy and irresponsible she was, by getting involved in some way with a big classic car. Now that he is no longer with us, I feel free to tell a cute story about J.B. Nethercutt. In the early 1960's, a bank trust tried to get him declared mentally incompetent to manage the family business. The basis ? They were able to prove he had "wasted" FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS restoring an "old car" (Duesenberg..naturally !). I remember my own surprise, in my last year of high school - I couldn't borrow a "decent" car (meaning someone's late model Chevrolet or Ford) and HAD to take a date out in my '38 Pacard V-12 Formal Sedan. I pulled into a restaurant driveway, started to let the girl out, when the manager/owner came out, and asked me to park the car in FRONT where people could see it ( we classic car buffs were just accustomed to being asked to park out back somewhere where the place wouldnt be disgraced...!). I was in disbelief...you mean...the guy thought a big classic was an ASSET ?

fascinating news - didn't know that - I knew Packard had mechanical refrigeration prior to the war, but never actually saw one.

beats me...West..I never heard of a 12 lb cap for pre-war cars.. ? ? ?

dont you dare !

now..LISTEN UP..you guys...dont any of you try and twist my comments about which Packards had pressure caps, and which didnt...into a food fight ! As I noted in my above "post", my memory is not all that clear on the "baby" Packards, not surprised to learn the "baby" Packards did NOT have some of the technical features we snobs had for our "big" Packards! (incidentally, the "baby" Packards actually had more advanced technical features in some respects, when they first came out, than the "Senior Division" cars ! So - please...PLEASE do NOT get the idea I was looking down on the pre war "baby" Packards because I didnt know that they didn't have the pressurized cooling systems of the "big" Packards! Packard died for other reasons in a far different world that followed World War II. Seriously..I was actually BORN in a 1936 "120" ! There is NO question in my mind, that Packard survived the 1930's because it decided to enter the middle-price range. I will match that '36 Packard "120" we had for many years, against ANY car of its year in its price range. I dont want to be responsible for turning the focus of the original question in this "thread" into other areas, so I will have to again emphasize that as to the technical features of the smaller-engined Packards, I simply dont know or remember enough about them to make further useful contributions on this particular subject.

great picture, West ( see his above "post"). Tell us more about the picture !

I HOPE your reasoning proves accurate - for purely selfish reasons - at my age, I have to start thinking that eventually I wont be able to care for my Packard V-12 sedan, and will have to sell it. I am frankly worried that you might be wrong, and the values WILL decline substantially; again, look at all those "repeat" ads in HEMMINGS, OLD CARS WEEKLY, and other publications - the big "tankers" like mine just dont seem to sell. WEST - just thought of something to show you how low the values were, of big-engined '20's and '30's closed cars were out here in the west in the early 1950's, and how much our definition of what is or should be a high value "classic" has changed.... Do you have access, or can you get your hands on a copy of the late Bob Gottlieb's CLASSIC CARS AND ANTIQUES ? (this was one of the first major books suggesting that the luxury cars of the 20's and 30's we now call "classics" were worth preserving). In that book, you will see a photograph of my '34 Super Eight sedan - with other pages full of open Packard V-12's. His sarcastic caption "the difference between this and a classic Packard are so great they need no further comment from me"...! Bob's above papeer-back book was written around '53.. started showing up on newsstands a few months later. Elsewhere in his book, he explains why you should over-spend fixing up a classic car. He notes the illogic in spending two much... " why spend seventy five dollars for a classic that needs work, when one in near new condition can be had for $ 175.." It now turns out that more than one Packard V-12 has been customized/hot rodded with complete modern drive lines (one has a V-10 Ford). A friend of mine has some pictures; if anyone's interested, I will see if Gariepy wants me to "post" them in here (assuming I can figure out how to do that). Again, I have to agree with Gariepy - despite our varying opinions on details and methodology, we are all car buffs - I think there is something interesting, something to learn from any good "car fixing up" job, no matter what you call it or what it started out as.

for both WEST & Mr PUSH: WEST - I agree with you to this extent - the idea of doing what we now call "restorations" didn't really exist until the late 1950's - my recollection is that I never heard of a real modern-style full frame-off restoration until Jack Nethercutt came into the So. Calif. Region of the CCCA in the late 1950's. Now, let me qualify that - HCCA was already going pretty strong by the late 40's and early '50's - I do recall seeing full "frame off" restorations on big brass as early as around '53. I should have made it clear that the Duesenber "J" phaeton that Nate Duress (think that was his name) was trying to unload in '55, had NOT been restored. I used the term "95 points" to indicate the car was fairly sharp. A friend of mine and I paid seventy five bucks for a just about MINT MINT '38 Cad. V-16 Formal Sedan ( the Mae West car that just appeared on the auction circuit - West is right to this extent - as the CCCA become more popular and more effective in suggestion there really IS a "real value" to the biggest, most elegant cars of that era we called "classics", prices started to climb very rapidly. Three years later (1959) we sold the Cad. for $500 ! Another year or so it went to $5,000, and just after the 1950's had become the 1960's, it was already up to $15,000. West obviously knows more about the doings in the mid-west and east than I do - perhaps people were paying MUCH MUCH more for big engined classics then, than they were doing out here in the west. Let me explain a little more why I have a '38 Packard V-12Formal Sedan (yeah..I know...twenty five bucks was too much money, since it needed a battery) than a beautiful '35 V-12 Town Car that was on a used car lot on Santa Monica Blvd. for $75. I DIDNT HAVE SENVENTY FIVE BUCKS AND NO WAY TO GET IT ! Getting back to the subject of those Darrins - remember, to be fair and honest, ole Dutch was pretty much making "customs" ! To save money, he was ordering "120" coupes (he wouldnt pay the extra price Packard wanted for the heavier-framed convertible) and used those to create his beautiful cars. The damn things were so flimisy the doors would spring open if the car flexed - when Packard finally got a hold of the "Darrin" project those cars had MUCH better chassis and body flex control.

"cheap" Duesenberg ? Naw - never happen. Actually, never did happen. In fact...the legend of "cheap" Duesenbergs is just that..nonsence - just a legend. I know, "I was there". In '55, a pretty nice (what today, would be about a 95 point car) Duesenberg phaeton was on the market for months in So. Calif, with no takers. Why - price was too high. I mean...FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS. You guys have ANY idea how much FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS was to the average car buff, who considered himself in paradise if he even SAW a fifty dollar bill..?

you are W R ONG - W R O N G - W R O N G ! I DO admit it ! Well said - great posts !

I disagree. Again - look at the auction results and the ads in HEMMINGS & OLD CARS WEEKLY. Yes, the open cars seem to move - but month after month you see the same closed cars, even really sharp condition "real" classics such as cars similar to my Packard V-12, and a couple of Cadillac V-16's, re-advertised over and over again. We all saw the late '30's hot rod / custom Lincoln Zephyr go for MUCH MUCH more than a sharp bone-stock original. Again, I have no answers, and I am not even sure any more what the questions are !

JT - I remain confused by your posts. Packard went from non-pressurized to conventional pressure caps in 1938. A 1939 and 1940 radiator would be similar, if not identical for any given series Packard engine . Both '39 & '40 were pressurized, and both had their filler necks UNDER the hood - not like the 1937 & earlier, the last year where the radiator cap was also the hood ornament.

yeah - makes sense - the 1940 "big" cars had a much smaller engine then the "big" 1939 cars, so with a much smaller cooling system = less water to expand = less expansion - so the top tank of 1940 and later radiator was sufficient to handle the expansion-rate of warmed up water. NO NO NO...I am NOT making fun of the "356" engines. Over the years, owned many Packards with that engine - in fact, somewhere I read that the "356" engine, with overdrive, in a coupe body, would have been the world's fastest production car of its day. I'd match a bone-stock '40 or '41 "160" coupe with overdrive and a "356" against ANY pre-war production car, and I mean ANY, either in a drag race or "flat out". With its "insert" connnecting rod bearings (you Buick Century fans - you didnt get the benefits of "insert" rod bearings until the early 1950's !) and excellent cooling, the '40 and later "356" can go wide open FOREVER without coming unglued. If you guys want to have some fun learning more about how pressurized cooling systems and "insert" type con rods make a big difference, go research some of the news articles on the opening of the first stretches of the Pennsylvania Turnpike..!

yup - so true !

suggest you ask for a refund on whatever reference source you used to make your determination that the guy's 1940 Packard did not have a pressurized radiator. Or, if you relied on an individual, may I respectfully suggest you catch him for info BEFORE he starts sniffing that stuff.....! Seriously, Packard went to pressure radiator caps in 1938. Well - let me qualify that...I never paid much attention to the "small" Packard line - cant recall when they got pressure caps. That was the first year Packard's hood ornament was NOT also a radiator cap (on their "big" car line). And, yes, it was a four & a half pound cap. Additionally, beginning in 1938, the "big" Packards (again, not sure about the so called "Juniors") not only had a pressure cap, they also had an over-flow tank so that expanding water would not be lost. I cant recall now about whether the 1940's came out of the factory with that over-flow tank used on the earlier "big" Packards.

Please..everyone who is thinking of doing their own painting - LISTEN to Restorer 32's comments ! Especially about breathing the vapors ! The vapor from ANY paint you spray is dangerous to inhale without the correct breathing equipment. This holds true even for the relatively benign older paint chemistry. But for the modern two part paints, the stuff is D E A D L Y ! As in, you can get REALLY dead from inhaling even a whif of the stuff. That is why VERY special breathing apparatus is required. Even with the correct breathing equipment for the paint involved, and a good spray gun ( I prefer the latest "low pressure high volume" guns) it is just about impossible for an amatuer to get a good finish with the modern two-part paint. You WILL get either "orange-peel" and / or "runs". To a lesser degree, this is also true with the old-style enamels on some pre-war cars. Nitro cellulouse laquer IS a bit easier to work with - many amatuers have gotten excellent results. But again, as Dave notes, there are three words that are the KEY to ANY paint job..PREPARATION....PREPARATION...oh yes...and more PREPARATION...! And note again Dave's comments - while I maintain you CAN get an authentic finish with old-style nitro-cellouse, he's right - it will be nowhere near as "shiny" or durable as a modern paint.

David in his above "post" brings up an interesting point about paint restoration finish I fully agree with - that is, if you get a chance to see a REALLY authentic car, look at it VERY carefully - you can learn a lot ! We were lucky in the Southern Calif. Region of the CCCA, in that we had a member who had not one, but TWO just about "new" early 1930's Cadillac V-12's. If I recall correctly, they had about four thousand miles on them, somehow escaping the ravages of time. They STILL SMELLED NEW! When I ran judging events for the CCCA, I used to love to use these cars as examples of what a 100 point car is - oh - let me explain, in those years, Classic Car Club Of America judging was based on how close the car was to its condition on delivery day as a new car. Our idea of "authenticity" in those years meant we most certainly could and DID take points off for over-restoration ! Of course that would be absurd these days - today, most car shows are public events, and many of them charge the general public to attend. It is only fair that you give the public what they want to see, i.e. a really spectacular show, so car shows today want their judging to reflect that the most spectacular car should win. My - how times have changed - in earlier years of the old car hobby, the general public, if they even knew what we were doing ( saving old cars ) they would have thought we were nuts, they certainly didn't bother to attend our events like they do today. If you follow Dave's suggestion, and are lucky enough to closely examine an authentic original car from the classic era,you will find the fit and finish was far more subtle than what restorers today MUST do to please crowds at public car shows. Those original paint jobs were not perfect ! Even on the largest and most expensive luxury cars we call "classics" ! I am confident that if you got hold of a time machine, and grabbed a car from the pre-war era right off a dealer's floor, and took it straight to a major car show of today, you'd be lucky if they awarded you a can of dog food ! So - there's the problem - what do YOU want to do with YOUR collector car ? I do disagree with Dave about paint chemistry to this extent - I am unclear precisely what ingredients he feels are not now present in notro-cellulose lacquer that were in lacquers from the classic era. I cannot over-emphasize how true Dave's comments are about preparation. I personally have painted two cars on the same day with the same batch of laquer, and found changes in how they "laid on", pointing out how valid Dave's comments are about the difficulty of "matching" ( an that was in the relatively dry and stable climate of Southern California ! ). Bottom line - it is YOUR car and YOU know best what you want to do with it. If you are a stubborn old coot like me, and want REAL "authenticity", plan on people walking right by your paint job, to marvel at the latest "hi tech" restoration.

I missed the big National Packard meet in Orange, Calif, this year, so I dont know what showed up. At the last one, we had at our meet two early thirties Packard sedans that had been "rodded". One, in all fairness, was built up from bits and pieces of sheet metal from disasters that would never have been restored. The other had been a fairly complete car. My recollection is they were both around 1933 or '34 Eight or Super Eight sedans. I have to admit the workmanship was superb. No question what with their air conditioning, modern radios, and modern running gear, they'd be safer and more pleasant to drive for "daily beaters" then even a perfect "just as it came out of the factory" car of that era. West is right - most hot-rodders / car buff types just plain like the low end cars. And this isnt a new phenomena. I noted elsewhere that when I bought my '38 Packard V-12 sedan (back in the early 1950's) for twenty five bucks, my parents had a fit; couldnt understand why I'd want an "ugly gas gobbler like that" when for another twenty five bucks I could have gotten something "reasonable" like a Model "A" or Chevrolet from the same era. I am not surprised to read in here that people IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING OLD CARS continue to "hype" the value. But the proof is in the auction and sales results. The hot rods are going up. The "best of the best" perfect restorations of big open cars seems to be at least stablized. I have seen conflicting examples as to whether they are still going up. But the big elegant "super classics" such as my Packard V-12, if in a four door closed sedan body, just dont seem to sell. I rather doubt if I could get much more for mine, than what you'd pay for a good used Toyota ! The various old car sales publications are full, month after month, of the same big classic closed cars that go unsold. I think we are all in agreement here, that we WISH people would act as "curators" for the cars in their custody, preserving them as historical artifacts (and, hopefully, enjoying them and driving the hell out of them like I do..!) I just dont see any answers to the dilema of losing cars of historical interest to the hot rodders. Wish I did.