unimogjohn

Just got this from Greg. It is his oil report and discussions with the Ford Senior dyno engineer, now retired. It is interesting stuff. > John (not me, it is the engineer) Hello again, > I once attended a seminar hosted by the late Harold Sharon. He was chief engineer for Pratt and Whitney. One of the subjects that he covered was motor oil for early cars (real early, like pre First War early). I recall that he had bought a new motorcycle and being the curious type, did some lubrication testing on his own. Evidently the manufacturer called for a light multi weight oil. He drove it a while and then opened it up for a visual. Things were scuffing. I remember him saying that a multi viscosity oil (like 10 / 30) is merely 10 weight oil with plasticizers to thicken it. Even in the Studebaker, a modern car with oil seals, I have always preferred single weight. (I realize that for summer/winter use there should be different viscosities). What do you think? Thanks for taking the time for me. You actually have quite an audience . GREG > > Greg, Sorry for the slow reply, I got kinda busy this week too. I usually dismiss oil infomation if I don't know the whole situation. In regard to the guy with the motorcycle that scuffed an engine I would want to know: was the engine properly broken in? did he follow oil change intervals? What additive package was is the oil? (Base stock of oil is important, but the additive package in the oil is equally important.) Last time I offered some thoughts on oil change intervals. There is an issue with low mileage driving. There is an extreme pressure additive in oil that is activated by oil temperature. It usually lasts for a year after it is activated, even if the engine is never started again. Fresh oil looks nice and clean but may be weak on EP additive. Yes, a base stock oil has viscosity enhancers in it to make it multigrade. There is no right answer for everybody. In my '65 Mustang I use multigrade oil because even in winter I start it once in a while, and it takes too long for single grade to flow in our climate. I 'm enjoying your questions. It's causing me to dig out old oil testing data. John >

Here is another pic of the pads installed. They really make the top nice and smooth.

It is Friday, June 11th. Ah, the lazy days of summer. Things are slowing down in VA, just getting too hot. Even Greg is slowing down a bit. Here are his last two reports from this week. Wednesday - Trying to get moving on this camshaft fiasco. Called my old buddy this evening. He'd removed the stock cam from his Avanti back in seventy something to replace it with some full race thing. Did he by chance still have the stock cam? Sure did, still on the shelf in the basement. Drove to his place, we went to the basement, he pulled it down from the shelf and handed it to me. It wasn't from a Studebaker. Oh well. Had a nice visit with an old friend. Thursday - Not much progress on things. Made some phone calls about the cam issue, as of yet no plan other than I'd sent out the original worn cam lifters to be reground, and they did make it to their Utah destination. The guy is an experienced (old?) cam grinder and I may have him try a special grind devised for supercharged engines.

Paul, I looked and looked for almost two years. Here are no pre-made tops for our cars, all are hand built. My trimmer, Dave Coco (trimacar on this forum) used Stayfast fabric. I used a black outside, black inside combo. You will need to find someone who has done one or two of these type of cars. It is an art to make one correctly. Since they are all individually made, it does not come cheap. Do you still have the windows from your old top? I think that it would be OK for you to contact Dave for his thoughts and advice. He also watches this forum so may chime in also. Dave also did most of the leather work of my interior and fixed many mistakes by previous trimmers. He is a master. Re the larger fastener. What style do you have? The lift-the-dot post type? That is what I have. The only reason to have a larger or taller post/male end is the thickness of material. On my car they were all the same size on the windshield. Where I have two covers meet, then I have longer posts (side curtains). Here are a couple of pics of my completed top. Post some pics of your car, would love to see them.

Tom, I tried that. All I did was skid across the driveway with the wheels locked up. A better idea is to drop the pan and put a flywheel turner on it so you can get some better leverage. It will also give you a chance to clean out all the gunk in the pan. I think the drag is a last resort effort before you have to remove the pistons. Keep soaking.....

A few weeks back there was a post looking for someone that was making wood body framework for the early cars. Here is one source that I just found out above. Hi John, I am the guy who is re-wooding your model and year Buick. Attached are photos as of today, June 5. The brought me sticks, stubs and doggy food bags of old wood pieces of his car. I am a good detective. I have been supplying wood kits for 1933 thru 1936 General Motors bodies for the past 28 years. That is how Rick found me, he bought a cab kit for his 35 Chevrolet pickup about three years ago and asked me if I would tackle the Buick. When I am all done, I will send you a complete set of photos which you may do whatever with. Not sure if you ever saw the interior of one of these cars but this is what a 1928 Model 28/29 looks like. Attached are a few photos of my other work..1935 Chevrlet Suburban and some other pics. Sincerely Dave Entler 717-235-2112 717-968-2751 Cell

Still Sunday, and this is the final exchange for the day. Learned a lot, and most informative. Greg's message to the engineer: Since I will be using another cam, I understand not to mix new/used components. And since the dual springs were part of that cam package, I'll be reverting back to single springs for this road engine. When I did the valve job, the seats looked very good, just needed touching up.I don't have specs at hand on valve tip height, but doubt they are far from spec. Upon engine assembly I had used over the counter "assembly lube". The stuff seemed pretty runny. The asssembled engine sat for a couple months before running, so the lube may have left the cam and lifters. In the old days I would mix 50/50 30 wt and STP for assy lube. Before we go any farther, and don't laugh, tell me about STP. Subject to ridicule, I've been partial to it because it was a Studebaker product. I understand the new STP Red has some zddp, but read where it isn't enough to hurt a converter. Thanks, Greg From the engineer: You are welcome to share this info. Let's talk about STP and zddp. First of all, you don't have a convertor to worry about, so zddp is your friend. The zinc in the formula will aid in wear protection. STP is high (thick) viscosity oil with high additive content (zddp). [i'm speaking of the old formula, I haven't seen data on what they did to change it] For most street engines it is totally unnecessary. Your blend with 30W should be good for assembly. This is basically what assembly lube is (high zinc additive). Your engine needs extra protection. If you go to one valve spring you will provide a good safety margin for your engine. It may cost you some high rpm operation, but it's what I would do. I tested oil for years and am amazed at how many wife's tales there are about what is best. I'll try to stick to the facts. Modern oils are very good for today's vehicles. As a long time believer in 3000 mile oil changes, my testing proved to me 5000 miles or 1 year is no risk for a daily driver.

Still Sunday; here is another exchange of information re the motor, its history, how it was rebuilt. Also there is a discussion about assembly lube. Greg's message to the engineer: The engine I rebuilt is a Studebaker 289 R2 (Paxton supercharged) series for my '63 Avanti. I'm putting it together for street transportation, not for racing of any kind. Would like to step into it once in a while, but not often. Studebaker used high button shoe technology, although the Granatelli brothers (Studebaker's high performance division) did warm them up a bit. Solid lifters, timing gears, etc. It's a 3 9/16 bore x 3 5/8 stroke that is overbored .030. Compression is 9:1. The optional Paxton s/c has the factory option overdrive pulley for a little more boost. Five pounds is standard, so this might give you eight? Anyway, it is a two hundred thousand mile motor that had cylinder taper but everything else fine. Fresh bearings, new hypereutectic pistons. It was running with the factory optional 288* 56* overlap .400 lift cam with its dual valve springs. It was running well. I'd taken it out of twenty-five year storage, valve job , gaskets and changed the oil but I didn't gag it knowing it was worn). so I took the cam out, cleaned it, glanced at it and put it back in new cam bearings. I didn't measure the lobes. I also replaced the tappets with new ones. So the rebuild went on the dyno for break in and then a pull or two. It was started and it ran for about twenty minutes @ 1800/2000 rpm with varying loads. Cooled overnight, retorqued and then pulled again. No power and struggled for rpm over 4500. Never went over 5100 although the factory red line for stock cam is 6000 and this cam and springs 7000. I knew then that it had broken. (I added this sentence for clarification) Now it is coming back togther. This time I've turned the crank .010/.010 and another set of bearings are in it. I appreciate your opinion on the choices I made and you'll probably verify my belief in the 50/50/90 Rule. So I'll ask my questions one at a time. Today's question: Was it a mistake to use new lifters on a used camshaft? I thought it was thoughtful of me to treat the engine with so many miles to a new set. I know it's been done before. When I approached Delta cam (who does a lot of work for me at my day job) said that some of the "out-sourced" tappets are of a wrong alloy. And don't forget that I told you I had changed oil and driven the car several thousand miles a few years ago and that I didn't measure the lobes during overhaul. Before we get into modern oils, I'll just say that the 30 wt Pennzoil I used was probably the new formula. I may have begun the destruction of the cam at that time. Yesterday I hastily measured the valve spring rate on one of the spring assemblies. Subject to closer scrutiny, but the readings I got were 98# valve closed and about 200# with the springs depressed .400 lift. I don't think that is excessive pressure. I'm interested in learning more about the cam/lifter loading, especially as you say it is higher at idle. This is the engineer's response: Greg, > Without seeing the parts my opinion is you should use new lifters with a > new cam or used lifters with a used cam. Always coat the cam and lifters > during assembly, with cam break-in oil or STP. Your breakin speeds sound > good. Your double valve springs are very hard on a cam. If you don't need > that much spring, lighten the spring rates. (High spring rates cause cam > wear.) Did you have any valve seat recession? Were valve tip heights > within spec? As for oil, you definately need a high zinc oil or oil > additive. GF-4 formula won't do for the high valvetrain loads you have. > Use a 30W GF-3 formula (getting hard to find) or use some STP to boost > your additives. > Cam loads are high at idle because the cam has to deal with high spring > loads which decrease as engine rpm goes up. The inertia of the valves and > springs causes load to go down, which is exactly why a high rpm engine > (yours is high for a flat tappet motor) uses heavy or multiple valve > springs, to try to offset the high speed valve/spring inertia. Hope this > gets our discussion going.

It is Sunday, June 6th. Very interesting. Greg sent me some emails between him and the retired Ford senior dyno engineer. With his permission I thought I would post them as they are of interest to me and am sure to many of you that are following this blog. Here is the first one, which includes the mechanical background for Greg, and a summary of what happened to the engine. From Greg to the Engineer: >>> Our mutual friend Dave encouraged me to communicate with >>> you about today's motor oils. >>> >>> I should probably give you somewhat of an introduction. My life >>> took a turn in the early sixties when I was in jr. high and >>> discovered cars. When the other boys were thinking hot >>> roadsters or Corvettes, I was taken with the early cars and then >>> saw my first Avanti while walking to school and I've been pretty >>> constant in those choices. >>> >>> Got my first car at 13, a Model A Ford for a dollar. Still >>> unfinished, but still have it. I knew my future would lie in the past, >>> and I've spent my life in restoration. Mostly early cars, but about >>> twenty years ago I cross trained into the first airplanes. My day job >>> is predominately restoration or duplication of Wright Brothers engines. >>> >>> Gathered several Avantis and they wound up in storage in the mid >>> eighties. Decided I missed driving one and pulled one out for >>> freshening up. >>> >>> This led to an engine overhaul. Even though it had two hundred >>> thousand miles on it, it wasn't in bad shape inside. However I >>> thought it was time for a rebuild and all the while I was thinking >>> that I wasn't doing it a favor. New cam bearings that missed the >>> drilling operation, rod and main bearings made in Mexico, new >>> harmonic balancer with the timing mark off by 10*, new timing gear >>> with more backlash than the old one, etc, etc, etc. >>> >>> Anyway, since my day job got me access to a local dyno shop, I >>> thought it would be neat to break it in and try a pull or two with >>> the supercharger hooked up so I could see some numbers. >>> >>> Things didn't work out very well. >>> >>> This wasn't my first Studebaker engine overhaul, and I've never hurt >>> one of them. Until now. I may have made some poor choices in my >>> approach, but with all my questions the motor oil problem is always >>> present. >>> >>> I wiped out a very rare camshaft as well as circulating all the >>> grit . >>> >>> The crankshaft came back today from being reground and I'm starting the >>> reassembly. >>> >>> I would appreciate your opinion on the many questions I have. >>> >>> Seems like they keep changing the rules without warning and this >>> old dog doesn't like new tricks. But I can try to learn. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Greg >>> Greg, >> I'll try to help if I can. I tested engines in Ford, Roush, and McLaren >> dyno labs for over 30 years and I've seen a lot of strange things >> happen. >> Flat tappet motors can be rough on cams. At low engine speeds the loads >> on valvetrains are at their highest (idle especially) so breaking in a new >> motor can be a challenge. We also saw many failures related to dyno >> issues, not the motor itself. For example, most dyno running requires >> using an oil cooler. I've seen debris collect in the cooler and be >> transfered to the next engine. Always use a new (not just washed) oil >> cooler for a new engine. Very cheap insurance. Anyway, give me a call >> and we'll talk.

Tom, take out the plugs and leave them out for now. Squirt in some PB Blaster, Kroil or whatever you have handy for today. We have all read that a mixture of 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone is the best, but I used Kroil and it worked. Let it sit for a day or so, every few hours, add a little more of the brew. After a day, I would then engage the crank at the 1 to 3 position and stand on the crank, which will apply the pressure of your body weight on the push/clockwise cycle. Balance yourself by holding onto the radiator shell, then start lightly jumping on the handle while standing on it and it is engaged. If it is going to move you will feel it slightly move. It could also break loose quickly so make sure that you have a good hand support on the shell. This is how I got mine to break loose. Mind you, it took a good month to do it. I cannot tell you how many jumps I made on that crank. But it finally moved and gradually it got better to the point that I was able to use the starter to turn it over. It was a pencil lead line of rust on only two cylinders. It will come, you just have to take time. Keep us posted.

It is Friday, June 5th. Boy is it hot, over 90 degrees, and humid the past four days. We are busy shearing the llamas of their winter coats. Each takes a couple of hours if cooperative, if not, well, lets just say it is unlike being in a wrestling match with a 350 lb critter with four legs who wants to kill you. But Greg presses ahead, here is his very interesting report and a pic. "Now that the bottom end is back together, today I took some time to remove a valve spring assembly for inspection. Pictured is the dual spring assembly for the R3/4 optional 288* camshaft. It has been rumored that Paxton used Isky brand. I got this set years ago with the purchase of that pile of R4 parts out of Michigan. Well worn, they were used when I got them, plenty of miles on them since. With valve spring rates at hand, if asked, I can answer in pounds instead of "Don't know". Also today I made initial contact with someone interesting. Dave Liepelt of the Ford Museum has arranged for me to communicate with a Ford Motor Company retiree who had spent thirty years doing dyno work with Ford, McLaren and Rousch. His specialty has been engine lubrication and wear. Today he called me, but I was on the road here in the foothills of the Blue Ridge, so wasn't much of a conversation. Very promising though. As I get my thoughts together, I'll ask his opinion on the choices I made. He will probably verify my belief in the 50 - 50 - 90 Rule (if you have two choices, you'll make the wrong decision 90 percent of the time). So I'm looking forward to this exchange and perhaps we can learn something to avoid more destruction. We are fortunate to have several on board who have engineering training and also shop time. This is part of the process of choosing my replacement cam, lifters and springs. Will keep you posted."

Tom, re your water return piping. I have not seen many, if any, survive. Most are have them made. There is a taper to them (larger in front, smaller in back) also, and i have been told that this is very important, why, I do not know. I would certainly take yours to a good fabricator in your area to get yours repaired or rebuilt.

It is Friday, June 4th. Greg finally has all the piece parts to reassemble his engine. Looks that it will be finished by the end of the weekend. I would expect next weekend he might even have it back into the car. Remember, he said that he is not going to dyno this version, and it is going directly back into the Avanti's engine bay. Here is his pictures. Here is his report. "Picked up the reground .010/.010 crank during lunch, now I'm putting it in its place. I'll post this and then finish torquing the rod nuts and install the Palnuts."

Yes, Ethan is correct. Attaches to the firewall with a bracket. The bottom is the filter, and is separate from the top. It has some cotton type media in it.

Here is Greg's report for Wednesday PM. "Still waiting for the crank to come home. I should be ready to drop it in. Tonight you can see that I slid the dingleberry hone through the cylinder bores to drag out any particles and have repeatedly wiped the bores with ATF and paper towels. Earlier today the original lifters were sent out for regrinding. That way at least I know the alloy was right."

It is Wednesday, June 2nd. Here is Greg's weekend report. "Over the weekend I started working on getting the undercarriage cleaned and repainted, ready for the engine installation. The crankshaft should be returning this week so the bottom end can be assembled. No decision on cam and lifters. It continues to bother me that I didn't separate the body from the frame, but it could easily drag this project on for another year or two. I have to keep reminding myself, "It's a driver, it's a driver."

Wayne, will someone give status as to the number of cars coming/registered so we have an idea how big the event is going to be? We are coming with our 23 McLaughlin Buick. Looking forward to it.

I am running the AC 3076 plugs on my 23, I have the cover on with no issues. I do have the spade connectors with a nut on the end of the plugs. I have also glued a strip of rubber, from an inner tube, where the plug might hit the cover. As I said, I am using the Champion plugs on my 28, also with a spade connector, and the rubber strip. I have not had any issues with either. Wires, I have the black 9 mm wires on the 23, 7 mm yellow with black tracer on the 28. I have seen all colors and type of wires, I would just make sure that they are cloth covered, color is at your option in my opinion.

It is Sunday, May 30th. Here is Greg's report. It is now sorta fun to see he is working on all the stuff I did early on, especially the wiring. He has lots of refurbishing to do outside of the drive train. I asked him if he was going to go with the original Bendix disc brakes versus the Turner system. He said that if it was good enough then, it is good enough now. Everything will be original. What am I doing? Nothing! Just driving it. A great feeling to have a driver again. Greg says "With the engine on hold until I get the crankshaft back from the grinder, time to return to the other parts of the car. The trip to the storage hangar for more Avanti parts was detoured to the airport where I helped friend hang the engine on his Stearman. He participates regularly at the local Flying Circus, the plane has been down for an overhaul. He's been busy with many of the other details, and he's gaining on it. This afternoon I spent reworking the wiring harness under the hood. Some wires had cracks in the insulation, several were severed, the harness tape wrapping needed help. Some solder, shrinkwrap and patience, a new grommet and the harness is ready. Grunt work coming up: cleaning the undercarriage up front; remove and replace the brake system piping. Tomorrow's another day."

To validate what you have take a look at the tag that is on the left side of the engine, I can see the tag in your engine pic.

Does it have the tag on the cowl? How about some pics, especially, both sides of the engine.

It is Thursday evening, May 27th. Tried to order parts from the Meyer family, but they have gone to the big national Stude meet in AZ. They will be gone for three weeks, so my instrument light resistor will have to wait until they return. But thankfully Greg is still plugging along, abit a little dejected. Here is the progress on his engine today. "Ever get the feeling you've done this before? Rod and main bearings arrived today. The crank won't be back until next week sometime. And today is my youngest son Logan's birthday, 27 years. I'd like to get this project done before he retires."

Bernie, way to easy of a restoration for you. I can recognize it as a car versus a pile of rusted parts. But, she sure would be a beauty, brought back from the edge of extinction.

Lead additive available? Well, sort of, I do not know if it really contains lead. I have seen this at many auto parts and shops. I have no clue if it really works or not. But you asked. AutoParts2020 :: CD-2 Super Concentrated Lead Substitute

Pictures from Rhode Island Wiring. Note, they are 7 mm, but I used them as no one had 9 mm, so you have to re-bend and make due. Or, make your own out of brass sheet.