carbking
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PackardV8 - the solution to the hot hard start problem is in my first post in this thread. The only solution I have found to the cold start problem (where the bowl is dry) is the electric pump. A phenolic spacer MIGHT (or might not) help, as it might help isolate the carburetor bowls from the heat. As someone mentioned longer mounting bolts might be necessary. One caviat to those who may wish to try this: generally speaking, one can expect slightly better wide open throttle performance with the spacer; HOWEVER adding a spacer of an inch or more can (and probably will) introduce idle issues.
I personally SOLVED the problem on my Ford shop truck by installing an electric fuel pump (for cold starts) and learning to use the alternate hot start problem mentioned in my first post.
If anyone comes up with a foolproof method other than above PLEASE CALL!!! I get this question in the shop at least 5 times daily from owners of many different makes of cars; would delight in being able to pass on any working answer.
Jon.
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The sight plugs were used on the 1955 Packard 4GC, but not on the 1956 Packard 4GC. Other makes continued to use the sight plug. It is a function of a specific carburetor, not of a year.
Jon.
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Brian, you are correct that carburetor manufacturers addressed the percolation problem years ago. Not sure exactly when this was first addressed, but I know that Carter had the brass anti-percolater valves as early as 1936 on their WD-0 two-barrel carburetor.
As to your comment on metal needles in O.E. carb kits up into the 70's: you might be surprised if you pulled one of those and inspected the valve seat. As you would be aware, much "creative engineering" is done to avoid patent royalties. One of the carburetor manufactures imbedded a neopreme washer in the fuel valve seat (the orifice was the washer) and used a metal needle with the "resilient" seat. I personally never cared for these myself; however this gave a neopreme fuel valve with no royalties. We have been using the steel needles from these "resilient" fuel valves in staked brass seats with no problems. The neopreme in these seats is old enough it really has problems with todays gasoline.
Different carburetors and different engines handle the heat and the volatility in varying degrees of success. While I really like the Carter AFB, the aluminum body REALLY has major problems with hot soak. I had installed one on my Ford shop truck with 390 CID and had MAJOR hot soak problems about 20 years ago. Once, when I was quite exasperated when the engine wouldn't start, I jerked the top from the carburetor and found the bowl bone-dry and the engine had been running not an hour before. This is when I installed my first electric fuel pump and learned to stay off the footfeed. Still have the truck with the AFB and it starts great, both hot or cold. It has a manual choke, and of course that is much superior to the automatic choke. In general, 4 and 6 cylinder engines and straight 8 engines tend to have fewer hot soak problems than V-8's; as the heat is less concentrated at the point of carburetor attachment. Also, using a heat resistant spacer (we know asbestos is totally out of the question) rather than the paper carburetor mounting gaskets in some insexpensive kits also seems to help. We have been making mounting gaskets from Armstrong N-8090 material.
When one has difficulties, one is forced to learn <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Jon.
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Many older carburetors are adjusted in this manner. What the manual is trying to say is that the FUEL level (not the float level) in the bowl with the fuel valve closed ON LEVEL GROUND should be 1/8 inch below the top of the main discharge jet (so it won't normally syphon).
70 years ago, there was a tool (you can make a similiar one) to aid in this adjustment. The tool looked like the letter "L". The end of the short leg of the "L" was a banjo fitting and a hollow bolt that fastened to the underside of the carburetor (remove the plug under the main discharge jet). The long leg of the "L" was an open-ended glass tube. The level of gasoline in the bowl would replicate itself in the glass tube, allowing the mechanic to actually see the exact fuel level in the bowl.
One can make a functional replacement for this tool by fabricating a fitting to replace the plug, bore a hole in the fitting, "sweat" in a piece of copper tubing, and attach an open ended piece of clear plastic tubing to the copper tube.
And those soldered originals were an absolute pain!
Jon.
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There is a lot of very well meant, but nontheless very incorrect information on this thread.
First, I believe the problems experienced by the thread originator are directly related to the fuel being used. The volatility of modern fuel is MUCH different than that for which the carburetor was designed to use. This creates hot starting problems (the engine is flooded due to evaporation and an over-rich mixture in the intake manifold) and cold starting problems (the evaporation continued, and the carburetor bowl is dry).
One learns to either install an electric pump for cold starts; or prime the carburetor with a couple of teaspoons of gasoline.
The hot start problems can generally be eliminated by using a different method to start the car. Forget what you have been told since childhood about holding the throttle to the floor to start a flooded engine. Instead, do not look at the throttle, let alone touch it when the engine is hot. Crank the engine for 3 to 8 seconds (this will vary with different engines) then GENTLY press the throttle down about one third. The car will normally start.
The Rochester 4-G series carburetors don't have "pensonalities". They either work, or they don't work. Intermittant problems such as described will be either fuel related (too much volatility, too much pressure, etc.) or ignition related (in this case I would bet on fuel).
Some other items discussed:
The original needles are NOT stainless, they are steel and WILL rust!
Leakdown was a term derived from much older (1930's) carburetors which had the fuel valve in the bottom of the bowl. If the valve leaked, then the bowl would drain back into the tank. The Rochester 4-G series has the fuel valve in the airhorn, hence it is impossible for the fuel to leak back into the tank (unless the automobile is being stored upside down <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).
Neopreme valves starting appearing in the 1950's and 1960's as they were more forgiving of rust particles in the gasoline than the steel needles. Accelerator pump skirts of neopreme started appearing in the 1960's because they are MUCH cheaper to produce than using leather (and much inferior also <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />). The compound used for neopreme has changed many times over the years, as the composition of gasoline (fuel) changes over the years. The older neopreme is not compatible with any of today's gasoline. The new neopreme is not compatible with MTBE and many of the miraculous wonderful superlative additives which are sold to put in the fuel tank with the fuel (including ethanol, which should be avoided whenever possible with older vehicles).
I have personally witnessed the neopreme tips and accelerator pump skirts actually DISOLVE in some of the aftermarket additives.
The problems with the neopreme did not come on as a uniform problem. When we started seeing problems years ago, it took awhile to see that the problems were confined to (A) customers using additives (we didn't know unless told) or (
customers located in the "save-the-planet" states (read MTBE). I can well believe Kanters did not think there was a problem 8 years ago.Another recent (last 2 or three years) problem that has been blamed on neopreme is actually one manufacturers attempt to save money. One manufacture ceased "staking" of the fuel valves. This is a step that places a perfect chamfer on the seat orifice, helping the valve to seal. The hobbyist can duplicate this step when rebuilding a carburetor by doing the following: (A) obtain a small block of wood, a steel ball bearing, a drift punch, and a hammer; (
place the fuel valve seat thread down on the block of wood; © place the steel ball bearing in the seat covering the orifice; (D) place the drift punch on top of the ball and (E) whack (highly technical term meaning to strike briskly) the punch with the hammer.Hopefully, this will clear up some of the misunderstandings, and allow the thread originator to start his car (at least hot).
If an electric pump is installed to help cold starting, remember that federal law (and this is a GOOD one!) requires that electric pumps MUST be permanently wired to an oil pressure switch.
Oh, and to the poster asking if there were a bolt on modern carb, the answer is NO! While some of the newer carbs may fit the bolt pattern, the bore pattern was changed in 1961, with the center to center spacing being increased (on the same size carburetor) one eighth inch from side to side (fender to fender). This is sufficient that the thottle plates will stick in the intake. Also the air cleaner size on the older carbs was four and three fourths inches, whereas the new ones are five and one eighth inches; so the air cleaner will not fit.
Jon.
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Branham lists the Bethleham truck as being produced in Allentown, PA for the years 1917-1928.
Jon.
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Exact identification of this carburetor is difficult. We have over 700 different listings for Stromberg M-2 in our database. The M-2 is a updraft carburetor model M of S.A.E. size 2. Internally, there are seven different venturi sizes (to calibrate for different engine sizes) and of course there are differences as throttle arm on the left or right, different jetting combinations, etc.
This probably doesn't help, other than to make clearer the big picture.
Jon.
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Wanted - Oakland literature, and unusual older Pontiac literature such as Pontiac Owners Magazine, Pontiac Warrior Magazine, GM Folks Magazine, factory service letters, factory sales letters, inspector's guides, filmstrips, training movies etc. Thanks.
Jon.
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With respect to all, I would like to offer a dissenting opinion.
There is no doubt that the hobby is evolving, and will continue to evolve as we grow older, and will probably shrink. When I first started selling parts to the hobby 35 years ago, my primary market was owners of vehicles in the 20's and 30's, with a smaller market of newer vehicles. Have not seen a large market (but always some) for pre 20's parts. Today, my primary market is the 50's and 60's, with still some sales in the 20's, 30's, and 40's, and muscle car sales in the 70's. My opinion that many enter the hobby in their late 40's and early 50's when (A) the kids have left the nest, and/or (
the house mortgage is paid; leaving the individual with more discretionary funds. Many then acquire the car they WISH they could have afforded when they were 16 (not necessarily the car they had). Others enter the hobby when grandpa or dad leaves them an older vehicle as part of an estate.In view of the above, I would suggest that "promotion" of the hobby to the youngsters may be a waste of a time. Those that are interested will become active in the hobby through association with friends, relatives, etc. Those that are not interested will probably pay little attention to any promotion. Most of us grew up working on cars. Think about that statement today. If the professional, factory-trained mechanic with all of the diagnostic computers and equipment available at todays dealership is unable to diagnose a problem and repair it on a modern car, why should we think a 16 year old with a Chilton's manual and a set of freight salvage tools should be able to fix it???
My suggestion is to better retain those who for either reasons as stated above or other reasons enter the hobby. How can we do that? Simple: attitude, attitude, attitude!!! When confronted by a youngster with an import, don't make fun of it, and call him a "ricer"; instead look at the car, and compare it (favorably) with vehicles in your interest. Point out the interior space (room for six adults), trunk space, etc. When you see someone who has "butchered" an older car with a new V-8, chopped, channeled, etc.; do not ridicule and make the statement "boy, you sure butchered that car". Instead, point out the differences with the original. Complement the individual on superior workmanship (when present). When looking at vehicles at a car show, instead of pointing out mistakes by "well, you did that wrong!", try "I don't remember this item like this, seems to me it was like that, well maybe it was a mid-year change". Plant a seed of doubt in the owners mind instead of a seed of hatred. Above all, when approached by a novice to the hobby, be helpful.
Finally, the horse disappeared as primary transportation in this country maybe a hundred years ago. Have they disappeared? No, there are many saddle clubs out there. Yes, the percentage of horse owners is much less than 100 years ago (our hobby will also shrink), but it takes a lot more room to keep a horse than it does an old car. And just think of the pollution!
Jon.
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Ames Performance and Performance Years are both companies which specialize only in Pontiac parts. Both have a very solid reputation. I have personally dealt with both and been very satisfied. Both have a presence on the 'net.
Jon.
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The Schebler model U-1 is a model U in size 1. There is also another number stamped on the carburetor which will be UX-nn where the nn is two digits. This number will positively identify the carburetor.
As the Schebler model U as used by Oldsmobile was constructed from a zinc alloy which was (is) chemically unstable, restoration should always begin by having new castings made.
Unless this is going to be an absolute numbers matching show car, a replacement carburetor should be at least considered.
Jon.
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The starting issue could be a multitude of problems; but the long fast idle and rich running could be a defective or misadjusted choke.
On a vehicle of this age, the automatic choke should go off in 5 to 8 minutes depending on whether the car is being driven or at idle.
You can check the operation of the choke (which controls the fast idle) by removing the air cleaner, and then starting the engine. The choke plate, before the engine starts should be closed. When the engine starts the choke plate should open perhaps 1/4 inch and should slowly open as the engine warms to the vertical or wide open position. When the vertical position is reached, the fast idle cam should go out of play, and the engine drop back to normal curb idle.
If this doesn't happen, things to check:
(1) check to make sure the heat riser is not stuck in the open position.
(2) check to make sure that there is vacuum from the choke housing to the heat tube (I am assuming you have a carb with the integral choke, and not the divorced choke which sets on the manifold).
(3) check the operation of the choke spring. Remove the choke cap and coil, and place them on your workbench. Mark the position of the end of the coil on your workbench. Borrow a hair dryer from your wife or girlfriend (not both
) and apply heat to the spring. Measure the linear distance that the spring unwinds; and compare this with the linear distance that the choke arm (inside the housing) moves from choke open to choke closed.(4) if all of the above seem normal, readjust the choke as follows. Reinstall the choke cap and spring. With the engine cold and off, and the ambient temperature at 68 degrees F. (65~70 is close enough); depress the throttle to the floor and release (this releases the choke lockout); with one hand hold the throttle about half open; with the other hand slowly rotate the choke cap until the choke butterfly starts to close, and continue to rotate until the choke butterfly just touches closed; release the throttle, and tighten the choke cap retainer screws. This procedure will adjust the choke to standard setting.
Jon.
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Cannot help on timing, our database is primarily concerned with carburetors.
Jon.
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Wanted - Oakland literature, and unusual older Pontiac literature such as Pontiac Owners Magazine, Pontiac Warrior Magazine, GM Folks Magazine, factory service letters, factory sales letters, inspector's guides, filmstrips, training movies etc. Thanks.
Jon.
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Current production carburetors will have linkage and fuel line issues. Also, the original air cleaner will NOT fit current production carburetors. Best bet is to rebuild your original carburetor, then you KNOW it is the correct one for the car, not a "generic" replacement. Parts are readily available for you to rebuild your own.
Jon.
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Have no information for the 1910. Database is good, but still incomplete. Always welcome input with factory documentation.
Jon.
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Exact identification of the Stromberg glass bowl carburetors is difficult to impossible; as there are no identifying numbers on the units (other than style and size eg. A-3 which would be a style A size 3), and each physical style and size could have up to 5 different venturi, different throttle arms, jets, etc.
It is, however, quite easy to identify each unit into a group of application by style and size.
Jon.
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Schebler model L carburetors were problematic when new. For driving purposes, most replace these units. If you wish to stay with the brass look, Stromberg series M and O carbs are much superior. If you are not concerned about the brass look; Stromberg SF and Zenith 63AW series are better yet, and less expensive.
Jon.
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The Stromberg O series carburetors used a main venturi (the large one) and a booster venturi (the small one).
Normally, these break when removed, and new ones must be machined. Occasionally one gets lucky with the removal.
The main venturi is held in place by a set screw. Often the main venturi may be removed by removing the set screw, then placing the carburetor body in a zip-lock bay, and then placing it in your freezer overnight. A little penatrating oil placed on the throttle bore AFTER removal from the freezer helps.
The booster venturi is held in place by two points: (1) a brass screw coming into the booster from outside of the carburetor; and (2) a locating pin which is a part of the booster which is inserted into the carburetor body. The location pin allows the booster to be held in the vertical position with only the one screw. We have NEVER successfully removed a booster venturi (even from new old stock carburetors) without breaking the locating pin.
Jon.
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Our database indicates the Schebler Model L was used as original equipment on the 1911 Model 30. Have found that often the model is more definative than the year on listings in this era.
Jon.
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The Schebler Model L carburetor was troublesome when new, and unlike a fine wine, not improved by age.
Finding a suitable replacement requires several items of data, some of which you have already supplied. The flange size center-to-center of 2 and 11/16 inches is referred to as an S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers) size 2 flange. Most updraft carburetors were of the straight flange configuration; however you have indicated the need for a cross-flange carburetor. Stromberg is probably the best source for cross-flange carburetors, and they will be identified with the letter "X" in the carburetor type - eg a Stromberg model O-2 is a straight flange size two carburetor, whereas a Stromberg model OX-2 is a cross flange size 2 carburetor. Zenith also made a few cross flange units as did Schebler in their later model S (also problematic). Carter did not offer a cross flange updraft carburetor in S.A.E. size 2.
Another option (assuming you have the room) would be a cross flange adapter. This can be easily machined from a piece of aluminum flat stock of thickness 3/4 inch to 1 inch, and simply looks like two carburetor flanges welded together at a 90 degree angle. The use of an adapter opens up additional manufacturers of carburetors to use.
The other item of data needed is engine size. The size 2 is a physical size only. Within each physical size carburetor, there may be as many as 10 different internal venturi sizes; and the venturi area is what determines airflow. It is important to size the carburetor airflow capacity to the airflow requirement of the engine.
However, before "throwing rocks" at the carburetor, as others have mentioned, checking the ignition system and general engine condition is a good idea. The best carburetor in the world will not solve a faulty ignition system.
Jon.
customers located in the "save-the-planet" states (read MTBE). I can well believe Kanters did not think there was a problem 8 years ago.
Rochester 4-GC Problems
in Packard
Posted
PackardV8 - check my bio.
Jon.