Twitch
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I know for sure that the concept of Rat Rod had nothing to do with Big Daddy Roth and the Rat Fink cartoony stuff. The customs back then stressed looking good- lotsa chrome and many coats of paint.
If you go and ctually look at Hot Rod magazines from the mid to late 60s you'd see what the car scene was all about.
The VAST majority of cars were barely tweaked out of stock. The 30s-40s cars were simply old cars that nobody but kids wanted due to the get-rid-of-it! prices. $175 1940 Fords at that time was the norm. About all kids did was replace stock hubcaps with something like Dodge Royal Lancer ones- this is way before aftermarket wheels. They might have a mildly custom upholstery job cause the original was shot to begin with.
A big deal was an accessory intake for a 2nd carb. Finish it off with a decent but not expensive paint job and viola, there was everyoldcar USA. Most Model A s- 32s ran full fenders had the original 4 banger but had some bucks in paint and upholstery. Few had the bucks to do a real fenderless roadster with an emphasis on chrome.
Gotta remember many of these 30s cars were parked when they quit running the last time due to economics- too expensive to fix one last time. That's partly why different engines found their way into old cars. And it wasn't only Chevy and Ford. Buick, Olds, Pontiac, Chrysler and even Cadillac mills were used. If you've never heard of a Studillac or Fordillac you missed something.
For us young guys able to get hands on newer cars we went for 327s, 389s, 390s, 383s and such mostly in sought after 2 dr HTs. Screw sedans. They were old lady cars!
Sure there was a contingent of people who were fanatics for radical customs with chrome everything and a zillion coats of candy paint. They were always a teetering minority on the edge of amused acceptance with the regular crowd.
And you need to put the quantities of cars just from the 30s into perspective and realize they never were rare until perhaps just lately. Both Ford and Chevy produced well over 900,000 1936 units alone! Dodge 263,000 and Plymouth with 1/2 million more in '36.
Why were 39-41 Fords sold at $175 in 1965? There were 1 1/2 million of them, that's why. Our Tri 5 Chevies- about 250,000 each year were built. They aren't rare they're high in price now because they're popular.
What we did see that might be ancestor to the Rat Rod was simply the in-progress look of many cars owned by kids. You didn't send the car off to a custom shop with $$$ and wait for it to bounce outta some garage door womb complete. You worked on it little by little AS YOU COULD AFFORD IT!
That's what cars cruised around in flat gray and black primer- 1st in spots after dent smoothing, then full coat primer when you were ready to begin saving for paint.
Interiors were the same deal. Lot of the old cars has set up and the sun/heat had ruined the original. Guys would start gutting the old car when he began saving for upholstery. They got sick of torn, hanging down head liners and ripped or lose door panels and often denuded the car of upholstery.
As for the accessory insignia just look at old magazines and you'll see the stuff that was ubiquitous- skull shifters, 8-ball knobs and shrunken heads in plastic and the Rat Fink character illustrated with his Maltese cross rearview mirror.
Rat Rods are nothing more that copies of in-progress cars of the 60s.
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"If I want to see an original Model A victoria coupe, I can find one easily. If I want to see an original Packard victora coupe, it's a lot harder."
But that is the essense of striving to own the unusual rather than the mundane. I can see a Model A a couple times a month at events whereas there are no Packards of which you speak to be seen except very rarely.
If there is now 49 instead of 50 in a given geographic area the probability is I wasn't going to see one anyhow at the average cruise in or local show at the park. The really rare and expensive vehicles are seldom shown at concours activities sponsored by the Packard club or the yearly at Pebble Beach hoohaa.
Like the time this Cadillac V-16 showed up at our cruise in.
1st and only time in 3 years I've been going.
Anything rare will be a treat to see simply because there are fewer of them and always have been. But technically if somebody had never rebuilt the V-16 or it was parted out or some nut made a hot rod out of it the statistical probability of me seeing it in any form was very low anyhow.
There was an undercurrent of people saying it shouldn't be risked by being driven on the street and should be in a museum. Maybe, maybe not. But when objects are in museums they are protected from harm.
It's like the contingent that believe that all the WW II era aircraft should be restored to flying condition if possible. Well and good if there existed a huge number. But museums have their places for many a rare and unique aircraft have been crashed after $7-8 million restorations where they'd have been better suited to a $2 million cosmetic job and allowed to sit in the museum. At least SOMEONE would be able to see them.
It's like stock cars with modern running gear. They're similar to fighter planes in museums since no one can see the engine anyhow. At least somebody gets to see the original lines of the '48 Studebaker whether mechanically accurate or not. You and I weren't going to see any 1-of-50 rare car anyhow unless in static display at a museum.
Except for the scant few with irreversively modified bodies almost every car I see at an event is capable of being returned to 100% accurate stock condition. There are almost no radical customs other than the bizzaro jobs for a minute few in that tiny custom showcar segment of the auto hobbies.
I see mostly cars with incorrect modern interiors or incorrect fabric, not standard paint colors, different wheels and tires, wrong steering wheel, wrong era accessories and sometimes different engines. There is nothing stopping any purist from purchasing one of these cars and returning it to stock. They would spend less doing that than attempting to conjure up some rusty skunk car from a junkyard.
The above-described cars are what average people in the hobby own besides 100% stockers. The old Car Craft wild cars of the 60s are still around as a bare minority and the highly modified cars we incorrectly imagine are pouring out of custom shops are few by comparison to the total of the hobby. Relatively nad actually very few wild customs have been created simply due to the cost and time involved.
They're for a whole 'nother bunch of folks that enjoy seeing chromed chassis and 30-coat candy apple red paint jobs. But people that have acquired truly legendary autos spend money on accurate restoration detail and paint jobs just as deep. Same problem for lotsa average hobby folks- they don't relate to Bugattis, Talbot-Lagos, Delaheys, Delages, Bentleys, Dusenbergs, Ferraris, Maseratis, Cisitalias, Pegasos and ultra rare vehicles seen, if we are lucky, one time in public a year.
These are autos that if you're into one a $1/2 million you got a bargain. These few folks are as alien to the general hobby as the limited few who occassionally modify a rarer car- they aren't the norm.
I find it childish to worry about something as out of my sphere of influence as whether Johnathan Wittington III will properly restore his 1938 Bugatti Atlantic or whether Gomer Gibson will put a big block in his Stude Dictator and could care less whether Raoul Rodriguez chromes every piece of his '58 Chevy show car.
I worry about what I have control over and nothing else. BTW- I'm into my 2nd dozen "Best Original" trophies in 3 years with my Packard.
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I looked up radiator repair places in Meridian MS and there's a bunch of them. Bet one of them can do the job.
If you want the best with a LIFETIME guarantee go to gastankrenu.com there's a place in Texas and the next closest in Kentuky.
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As far as the figure of $90 goes it is not high for any voltage battery of sufficiently high power to start and run your vehicle. My 96 Eldo took a $150 red top Optima and I'm not complaining. Here's one reason- reserve amps. If you are out someplace and the alternator craps out you have the reserve power only to run electrical components and get home or to a place with service.
Same goes for vintage except there is less things to use power like computer being needed to keep the car running. I have an 875CCA Interstate that was in the car when I got it 3 years ago. It's taken many charges from inactivity. The high CCA factor gives power when a cheap battery would be dead either by having the power to crank longer or supply juice longer if the generator conks out.
And yeah NAPA has stuff nobody else has or they have people who actually bother to cross reference things and get what you need.
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The unfortunate reality is that the costs versus reasonable value after refurbishment are skewed. Most of the 30s cars would take more money than a #1 is worth to make them a #3 car. Lots of parts missing and rust, rust, rust. By and large the place is good as a parts repository not for cars to restore at break even investment.
I saw a similar huge yard on a "hot rod" forum last week. there were probably 300 cars in it but 50s-70s and in far better overall condition. It was filled with mostly 4-door cars that ended up in the junkyard, period. 2-door cars had long been rescued or never junked.
I looked at a 57 Chevy for example and realize it doesn't matter if every car in every junkyard is restored like som epeople believe. These cars are a parts supply. Does the world really need another 57 Chevy 4-door stock or modified? I see 2-3 at every auto event with even 40-50 vehicles in attendence.
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If anyone thinks rat rod is overused and meaningless the word vintage is also. If you search for vintage clothing or other items your search encompasses sellers with "1990s vintage" goods to sell- yeah real old stuff.
Time and again I've seen a few aholes actually say "vintage new" in their descriptions as if one word didn't cancel the other out.
For the same reason as "rat rod" "vintage" is completely bogus and used for attention only.
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1937hd45- Well at least you are doing something more than blowing a lot of hot air like the rest of us. I see you obviously hold no illusions, as I've seen on the forums before, when you find a derelict that has had a tree growing through it for 35 years that it should and must be restored.
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I agree with you but that and a buck will get you a cup of coffee. It makes no sense for people that peruse this forum to get lathered up about something they have no control over. I say mind you own business and take care of your own cars. Until you begin underwriting the maintenence of someone else's car you have nothing to say about it.
There will be the same types of cars floating around forever. Wherever I go I see the same genre of stock and modified cars. They might as well be the same cars. As far as "modified" go most are so mild that about a day or less would return them to stock. It's usually non-stock wheels and upholstry done non-stock or with non-stock materials.
There is a glut of 48-58 stock cars in this area from the Big 3 to the point of sheer redundancy! We're not running outta them for sure!
BTW that business about the Constitution? The people that produced it had imagined that ever so often their heirs would completely revise it as to the times.
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Here's a trippy .gif from Rte 66 for ya
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I recall a Boyd theme car they were doing once the "Junkyard Dog" car. It was a 56 Chevy that they were, of course, building their way- which is to say throwing out most of the rusty crap that had already rotted away and fabricating replacement parts.
They used a modern chassis, brakes and running gear so basically only the original body parts were Chevrolet. But after they cut out rust, patched and bondoed and sliced in new metal they couldn't get the original parts to fit again. They had to go back to the junkyard and find other trunk lids doors and such that had a better chance of mating with the body.
This should tell us something- that experienced professionals had a hell of a time producing a smooth, cohesive-looking body from decayed original parts. How good could any of YOU do? How would you like to have to spend for that if pros did it?
How easy would it have been to restore the Chevy to stock condition? More than it's worth? Of course. And looking at the finished car you undenyable see an outwardly stock 56 Chevy and not some Darryl Starbird custom.
I saw one show with that guy Barry in CA that builds cars explicitly for auctioning them at profit. The stuff he starts with is shockingly pure crap often from salvagers.
He bought a stock 57 Chevy cheap for like 5Gs from its owner. I'm thinking he really ripped the guy off! Blasphemy- he's going to turn it into a gaser. Well once they began disassembly damned near every sub assembly, panel and part hidden under paint was totally rotten. Bondo had flowed so heavily that seemed to be what was holding the crate together. He had to get a huge amount of duplicate parts at additional investment.
Yeah some of those "classics" look great till you start actually looking at them. Could some schmuck have kept it stock and just let it rust away some more till one day it collapsed on the garage floor? Of course.
On Foose's show they brought back to life a 57 Vette. It took over 400+ man hours of fiberglass work on the body alone to be usable. How much would that have cost the original owner? More than he could afford or he'd have probably opted to do it cheaper and have ended up with some lumpy turdwagon. The machine ended up 99% stock. The owner didn't have the money to restore the car. It had been sitting decaying for many years.
Like so many that sit out there people don't have the money to do them or do them right. The languish in dark holes in no win situatuions because the owners somehow think, what, they're going to win the lottery? They won't sell them. They'd rather allow them to degrade it seems.
The number of cars done on TV shows is what like 10 a season? How many average Monte Carlos, Mustangs, Camaros, Dodges, Impalas and Falcons have they done relative to truly rare stuff like a Mormon, a Dusenberg or a Delage?
How many people are spending $30K on a restored car, putting another $50K in it and "ruining" it? Is it the majority? No? Do any of you have budgets of that magnitude? I doubt it. I don't.
After a 1948 Big-3 car ended its usefull life in 1963 and began residing in a junkyard to decay we know that at any time closer to 1963 it would have been save-able...if someone wanted to save it.
Now after nearly 45 years decaying to dust a minority of people say it MUST be restored to its stock showroom condition. Of course they aren't spending their money and doing that as they could have at any time in the past 45 years. No, they are attempting to tell an actual purchaser how he should rebuild the car which was never rare, expensive or exotic. It's just a plain Fordchevdodge. How many more are there out there and who is going to restore them all? Frankly how many more modified or stock 1948 Fordchevdodges do we need anyhow. I see them at every car event!
If somebody pulls a junker out of a salvage yard today I say good luck on however you want to build it. They're up against it since the amount of money needed to restore or modify will likely end up being more than the value of the car in the foreseeable future.
If people are so worried about what a buyer mioght do to their car whay the hell are you selling it in the first place- especially to someone you don't know? Keep it till you die and let the kids do whatever they want with it. If you move in anything like a vintage car sub-culture you should know who keeps stockers and who has mod rods.
As for the Coddington outfit I wouldn't take a project there if I had beaucoup money. They have cars there from 2 seasons ago languishing while they throw together some crapwagon for a car show. Obviously they can't perform to schedule except when they're arguing like animals. I wouldn't want a vehicle worked on in those conditions. Bad mojo.
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I found it entertaining, I guess is the word, that there was sheaths of lawyer-esque crapola about the outfit selling it but they couldn't research it enough to tell you a damned thing about the engine or its condition.
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Vickersmanchrome is in IL. And what state are you in Big D?
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Just a warning if you obtain a car that has been setting in a barn or literally anywhere for a long time and you need to clean it out. Wear as much eye nasal and mouth protection as possible- pro masks not just handkerchiefs.
I have knowledge of 2 folks, one I knew, that cleaned out the accumulation of rodent nests, dust, dirt and assorted crapola from derelict cars. Both developed severe breathing problems due to they weren't protected.
Remember the rodent crap is catalyst for the Hanta virus and it'll kill you.
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What's the mystery? The right lane you can go straight, turn left or right and in the left lane you can oly turn left.
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Back then it was either you heard of the diesel lemons or the superb, long-running trouble free engines and nothing much in between.
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Drive I relate to your logic very much. Just so happens I was discussing cars with a fellow who does not own any vintage car but mentioned that the Mustang was a classic.
I explained the AACA and the CCCA definitions and that I felt I leaned toward the general CCCA one, though perhaps not agreeing with the yeras cut offs.
I still believe a fine or unusual motor car of "limited production quantity" is important. 300,000 fine or unusual motor cars could be an arguement for all sorts of stuff. And that's fine since it's just my opinion even though it's one I generally adhered to long before I ever heard of AACA or CCCA.
So actually this fellow had a quite realistic arguement of "classic" when he mentioned that a 64 Mustang is a classic in the vast unwashed public's perception. In common use of the word classic the Mustang defines it. It is recognized and reknown by multitudes of people.
If it is a majority rules thing certainly a Mustang is a classic. So is a Dodger Dog hotdog when you catch a game in L.A.
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Sounds like it's a reason an artist ends up with art instead of something the looks like it was designed by a comittee. There's leeway to create and let it flow with no restrictions. Sometimes artists of sculpture or any medium don't exactly know where the work will take them when they begin
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...yet there are those devout souls who haunt these forums who believe a decayed derelict like that should be restored to its glory days.
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I had a 1960 TR-3 which broke something every week. Back in 1967 I was spending some $80 a week on it, average. I could easily have been making new car payments!
Well 1st the danged thing cracked a cylinder head though it never got low on coolant. Big $$
Then one cold morning I got it started- something to rejoice in cool weather- and while IDLING it split a piston. More big $$ and the end of my fun with limey trash cars.
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For most of my car life I've held the notions of what classics were and those definitions I find are very close to the logic CCCA uses.
My 1950 is not a classic but a special interest or hobby car to me. 1934 Packard V-12 is a classic.
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Amphicar-By posting that story here a much larger number of people can see it than you could have ever told one on one. Thanks. I'll never buy anything from that outfit.
It's a poor excuse that a huge watermark is to thwart unlawful copyers. This is one of the most esoteric subjects you'd ever imagine to find in print! How many people have any interest in it? Few indeed. We're not taking Harry Potter here.
Relative to all things NOBODY is restoring 59 Skyliners!! The audience for that subject is miniscule, relatively speaking! Those people are amazingly anal!
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Frankly I wonder how you even think you'd come out ahead if you did something as dumb as attempting to put a modern engine in the Essex. You're just going to snag some used engine in unknown state of repair and reliabilty and then have someone engineer mounts and converters for it for less that 2 grand huh?
To replace the V-8 engine in a daily driver is going to cost you 2Gs. What would you do if you needed to do that? Take the bus?
Just leave the car alone till you can afford to do it right after searching for some other folks to do it. If you can't forsee having th emoney to do it right please don't let the car sit is rot- sell it.
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Without the internet no one would be communicating here! There'd be a printed monthly newsletter circulated to a small membership of people that somehow heard of some national car clubs back east and joined.
Old style parts finding would be in effect- a want ad in some obscure, esoteric auto newsletter or publication in one miniscule geographic area.
Without the internet it would be a far less easy proposition to find parts or accessories for any "old car."
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Look at both http://www.vmrintl.com/ and www.nada.com for the variations. Nada always shows higher. Remember to look at the definitions of "conditions". It should probably be between a #4 and a #5 in the VMR definitions. Even the NADA guide would place it below "low retail."
You'd do well to offer $2,000 for it and go up to a max of $3,500. Remember you always have a huge advantage over a seller of a non-running car. "Hey I may have to spend thousands alone rebuilding the frozen engine!" What can they say besdies the usual "it was running when it was parked."
To Stay a Classic or Not Stay a Classic, That is The Question!
in General Discussion
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1937hd, Skyking....me too. I have no intention of telling anyone what they should do with their cars or anything else. It's one of the reasons younger people aren't involved in "clubs" because they get a bunch of old farts constantly telling them what they should do with their cars.
Matt, I think you are right- I wonder if there were only 50 Model As in existance what they would really evaluate for. Certainly compared to any true CCCA classic by definition the "last" 50 Pierce Arrows would certainly be worth more.
Truly rare autos are rarely seen close up by the unwashed public. The folks that own them don't trust you and your kiddies to even be near them. They want their high class clones only invited to events that basically bar most by exclusivity or by price of admission.
We'd hope we get to see one of the last 50 Pierce Arrows in a museum if there is one in reasonable distance. Other wise we aren't going to see it. Period. That's the reality of any rare anything.
Rare and exclusive cars are protected from public access like your weekly cruise in unless the owner gets daffed and brings it for reasons unknown. It's like the Sierra Club protecting some damged owl that lives deep in some woods where no one will ever see it except of course a few of the elite Sierra Club members.
I bet guys like Joecool72 are having more fun in the hobby with his 79 Olds than most who have several hundred thousand invested in their car corral.
The bottom line still is that we can't control what others do with their cars or in any aspect of their lives even if we wanted to...and obviously some of us want to desperately.