Twitch
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Posts posted by Twitch
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Don't discount STP a product developed during the times many of our engines were new. I would more redilly put STP in an old engine and expect results rather than in a new one.
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Hobby insurance companies are very easy going for the most part. My friend recently had a total of his 1936 Chevy and the company basically sent him a check on his word of loss. He had it insured for $30,000. This is about double a normal car but he had modern running gear. Outwardly the car was stock and the interior was simply some not exact era plain gray material.
This is a car I couldn't imagine going for over $25,000 even here in So. Cal. but the insurance obviously thought it was worth insuring at 30K. Higest #1 NADA is $15,000 for this car.
Collector insurance pays for the agreed upon value at the time of the loss not by re-evaluating a wreck. You have been paying premiums at the valued amount agreed at $100,000. For the insurance to write up a policy for 100K at all they are agreeing in writing that you car is worth that much. The fact that you policy exists proves that they have already agreed that your car is worth 100K and they will pay that upon loss.
Classic insurance is NOT like regular stuff where the car you bought 6 years ago for $55,000 is now depreciated to $22,000. The insurance is going to pay you the 22K blue book value not today's replacement cost of $64,000. If you've noticed how your rate have decreased for no apparent reason it's because you regular car had devalued.
Vintage vehicles ARE at least holding their value if not escalating some small amount.
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Once an insurance company gives you an evaluation it's set. If you go the opposite way and an insurance company wants to underpay you for a total loss you have to get an appraisal company to go against that. I've had to do it and you will get more $.
Insurance companies usually evaluate at less than standard because they obviously don't want to pay you more for a total loss.
Vintage insurance companies have a different philosophy though they still need to make profit. Many were begun by hobbyists and do operate by rules that benefit the owner.
But if there is a fairly universal practice of offering protection beyond the normal evaluation the result is an increase across the board in value.
You can't go to State Farm with a 2008 that cost $28,000 and get them to evaluate it for $35,000, ie., more than market price. You can't get your 1998 which cost $38,000 new evaluated for more than current replacement value of $12,000 either. Regular insurance doesn't work like collector where the agreed upon value is paid.
When collector insurance companies offer more coverage which equals higher evaluation on a given model of car it effectively is raising the perceived market value on ALL those cars.
Your #2-3 condition '49 Wazoo generally sells for about $20K on the open market. The collector insurance offers to cover your car at $25K which is what a primo #1 condition goes for. A precidence has been set by evaluating ALL '49 Wazoos at #1 pricing.
It clouds the market with people with junky Wazoos believing they should get premium price. It affects things when after a time people know that ALL '49 Wazoos are being generally valued at $26K.
Nobody is going to initally price their #3 condition '49 Wazoo at $20K when their insurance company insures it for $25K and they have it in writing!
I certainly can't tell how long it takes for this practice to subtley affect the market but it will eventually.
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Ah so THAT'S what the old term "turtle back" meant!
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Now you got it! Al Gore didn't invent global warming. He invented the global warming business. From now till the day you die every gomer and yahoo will be competing to sell you some crapola that will allegedly do something to slow or stop GW. Every damned "thing" will bank on GW to elicit your sympathy and patriotism. You don't want to be a butthead and not buy this anti-GW product do you? Buy solar gas heaters! Buy aluminum siding! Buy a weather vane! Buy a sweater! Buy underwear for Britney! It's not only green it's patriotic as hell!
Laws will be made and remade since there's money to be made in every imaginable legal area also of GW too. Make or change a law in the name of the GW business. Who can fault that? How could anyone doing that have any ulterior morive? We just have SUCH a delightful future with this latest greenweenie assault on us.
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48Lincoln- What you describe is partly why vintage prices have become obscene. Back in the 70s to the early-mid 80s the collectable car market realtive to hobbyists and the basing of values upon specialized appraisers, insurance companies and esoteric processes was non-existant.
The cars that we here own and see at shows and cruise-ins now were not much sought after. But the rich folks who owned Mercedes 300 SL Gullwings and 1939 540Ks, Horches, Bugattis, Dusenbergs and other already high priced exotica began playing a game to expand their worth.
They'd put them up for auction- with an insane reserve- and watch the cars get bid way up. They'd invoke their reserves not met right and then hustle to their insurance company to get them to elevate the value based on written bids. So their $200K car soom was worth 300K or more- remember mid-1980s that was a lot.
Of course most of these folks had collections of automobilias esoterica exotica so across the board their classics inflated in value on paper at least.
So these people with other business endeavours would use the alleged value of their car collections in part or whole as collateral for some hoky-doky venture they were involved in.
It took a while but the artificially increased values began applying to "regular" vintage autos too. Not so much there as a base for business capital but out of prestige and leverage when someone was selling so they'd be able to parlay as much cash as possible out of the creaky car they were selling.
Just because an insurance company will pay loss on a car of a certain amount does not mean the car is worth that on the open market. This second my insurance company is sending out notices to their customers saying how I can raise my coverage for a little extra.
They would evaluate my car as a #1 condition vehicle...as long as I pay more insurance. My car is not in #1 condition and this practice is yet another aspect of the things at work which artifically ruins the hobby for all of us. Rich a-hole auctions where quite average autos go for beyond the premuim price give rise to every yahoo out there proporting equality for his #4 dogmeatmobile.
And as we see with Tri 5 Chevies it has nothing to do with rarity or number existing. It has to do with popularity. Popularity real or conceived, actual or imagined.
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Bingo, Dandy Dave! Maybe the dealer was fronting a purchase for Boyd Coddington who was planning on making it into a gasser.
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Everyone is simply assuming that in 2025 people will have relative interest in 25 year old cars simply because they did in 2000. You may go gaga over 1982 Granadas but I don't and lots of people never will simply because they know that by the 1970s true uniqueness in automobilia was long gone.
They know that 100s of 1000s of one year and model of car produced compared to perhaps 30,000 makes the lower production car more valuable across the board in most cases.
The simpliest viewer knows the relative rareness of a 1934 Lincoln over a 58 Chevy. They know a 1966 Dart can't compare to a 1950 Cadillac 2-dr HT in any definition of "cool."
If all of you are planning at least for your cars to be around then why is a 2000 Toyota going to be an attraction when people can drool over virtually the same cars at shows and cruise ins today?
My Packard has 77,000 on the clock and at less than 500 per year should make 2025, though I won't, with the original engine still ticking. Around here 1-2000 miles a year is extreme on collector cars or rods.
So who's gonna care about 2000 Mustangs when they can look at 1965s still cooking in 2025?
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On the Groucho Marx show sponsored by Desoto and the tune, "It's delightful, it delovely it's Desoto..."
I'd follow this with Dinah Shore in 2nd with, "See the USA in your Chevrolet..."
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Wayne, I'm in your category now at probably no more than 3,500 miles annually for all cars driven by my wife and self so it really doesn't create financial problems for me either.
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A 410 amp 12v started my Northstar once with a totally dead battery.
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1937hd45- you got that right! One local swap meet no matter how large is national in scope. While I found my Packard on Ebay within 2 weeks after about a month of local looking I had no surprises. Of course the owner posted some 40 pictures of the car.
Without the internet the car hobby would be a joke. You'd have to subscribe to several hundreds of dollars of periodicals and you still wouldn't match the search power of the web. Or you'd be advertising that Nash starter for sale in the local newspaper of Turkey Flats population 7,000- Nash fans 4.
Now no matter what item in any category you are contemplating purchasing you should check the web 1st. You will get an idea of cost and availability and save wasted gas and phone calls and lost time.
When I need a refrigerator water filter I buy it on the internet instead of from Sears. Why should I drive there and pay nearly double?
Does everyone know a 6 volt jump starter even exists much less where to buy one? Unless you lived near Chicago or found a catalog 2,000 miles away you wouldn't know http://www.lectriclimited.com/battery-butler.htm this is the place to get one.
This forum is doing exactly what it was planned to do- assist with information by my posting that.
Whatever the true or perceived evils of Ebay or computers in general they do make the hobby better.
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My friend who has teenish kids in his unimmediate family who think that that the Japs are basically the ones responsible for cars as we know them. I guess it's like talking to little kids asking what did people watch during the Civil War, not really knowing that TV has not been perpetual throughout history.
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Wayne did you see the Discovery Channel program on future cars? Well hydrogen is the least of it. There are so many concepts in R&D now with serious backing that it will come to pass before this century ends for sure.
What's almost scary is that a few are a hair's breath away from being viable in today's sense, meaning initial purchase cost and longevity coupled to available fuel.
You know the EPA recently effectively banned hobbyists spray painting their cars with toxics, ie. paint. Read Classic Car February '08 Richard Lentinello's column and you'll see they will make it illegal to OWN paint unless you are a certified pro. Sounds like R12 and the refridgerant hoohaa again.
So with that type of warped logic it's for sure at sometime in the future they'll outlaw toxic gasoline and restrict its use to specially licensed individuals.
If you want to fire up your 2017 Buick in 2092 it might be legal because they cleaned up the air by fitting all those catalytic converters to cows' mouths and butts to prevent methane release, but finding gasoline might be real tough. In a future society brainwashed to believe that everything wrong with the world was fossil fuels-related why will there be a commercial demand for gasoline?
The most intreuging future car was the one from France powered by compressed air. That works 100%. Now they're trying to get an on board air compressor to use less compressed air than it puts out to have near perpetual motion!
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6v jump starter $39 here- http://www.lectriclimited.com/battery-butler.htm
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I simply mean that if SOME 1935 Packards did have trim rings who is to say YOUR car can't or didn't at one time.
If trim rings weren't invented or used until 1937 than of course a 35 should have them to keep accurate.
I'd reckon it near impossible to find out what percentage of 35s had trim rings factory mounted to fall into the "common" category. We'll never know how many owners later purchased them after taking delivery of their car either. Certainly Packard buyers were more apt to pay $200 extra for options than a Ford buyer was.
One thing about old vehicles is that we are at a disadvantage as to having a viable cross section of any one era of vehicles to look at. Our proxy view 70 years later may not be accurate. I think a lot of owners feel responsible to the public in relatinon to showing their cars that they have many extra factory add-ons to cover the range.
But it is rationaly correct to say "what was typical?" Even the skew of the Tri 5s models we'll see at any event or venue is wrong. The vast majority are 2-Dr. HTs or sedans. The legions of 4 Dr. sedans and HTs are missing but in 1958 the 55,56,57 4-door cars is what we commonly saw.
And the fact that trim rings are alomost always full of dings and poor chrome and expensive as is, plus require a good deal more investment to restore them, maybe it's best you save the $$.
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When gasoline is priced per gallon like crude oil is per barrel- $100 none but the richest few will be able to have it. One day it'll be like whale oil. Sure it exists today and can be puchased for some relatively outrageous price but since gasoline and internal combustion are, and forever will, be linked to pollution to some degree it's not going to be looked upon any more favorably in 100 years than we perceive the "need" for anyone to possess whale oil by killing whales.
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In 35 years- 2042 do you really think anyone is going to be firing up any IC car for any purpose with no gasoline?
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I had tons of similar trouble with my browser's new mail look. This is from my IP and it it was ongoingly problamatic so I had the option to change back and it all works fine. It's always some javascript error, even with latest java, or other usually minor setting that some site somewhere doesn't digest when you attempt to access it.
Quite frankly it's getting almost to the point where one has to weigh the value of the web vs. all the jumping through hoops needed to simply access it safely and not screw something up. The complexity and questionable interactivity between your browser, IP, Windows version, Ad- blocking and how all that works or doesn't work with Norton is getting weary.
At least in th eolden days of like 1991 the modems were dead slow but there was no spam, viruses, or adware.
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Going here will give you a different set of numbers http://www.vmrintl.com/ Not SO much in #1 values vs. #2 but in description of conditions. Their break down is better, to me, than NADA's. This is where I see cars said to be #2s become #3s.
#1 Excellent: A close to perfect original or a very well restored vehicle. Generally a body-off restoration, but a well done body-on restoration that has been fully detailed may qualify. The vehicle is stunning to look at and any flaws are trivial and not readily apparent. Everything works as new. All equipment is original, NOS, or excellent quality reproductions. (See show car description in How to Use section.)
#2 Very Good: An extremely presentable vehicle showing minimal wear, or a well restored vehicle. Runs and drives smooth and tight. Needs no mechanical or cosmetic work. All areas (chassis not required) have been fully detailed. Beautiful to look at but clearly below a #1 vehicle.
#3 Good: Presentable inside and out with some signs of wear. Not detailed but very clean. Body should be straight and solid with no apparent rust and absolutely no rust-through anywhere. Shiny, attractive paint but may have evidence of minor fading or checking or other imperfections. Runs and drives well. May need some minor mechanical or cosmetic work but is fully usable and enjoyable as is.
#4 Fair: runs and drives OK but needs work throughout the vehicle. Body shows signs of wear or previous restoration work. Any rust should be minimal and not in any structural areas. Cosmetics, body, and mechanics all need work to some degree.
#5 Poor: In need of complete restoration, but is complete and not a rust bucket beyond repair. May or may not run. Not roadworthy.
Parts or Salvage: Incomplete vehicle most useful for parts. Generally, take 50-60% of the #5 value.
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Nada's less precise condition guide-
Low Retail Value
This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is".
Some of the vehicles in this publication could be considered "Daily Drivers" and are not valued as a classic vehicle. When determining a value for a daily driver, it is recommended that the subscriber use the low retail value.
Note: This value does not represent a "parts car".
Average Retail Value
This vehicle would be in good condition overall. It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer".
High Retail Value
This vehicle would be in excellent condition overall. It could be a completely restored or an extremely well maintained original vehicle showing very minimal wear. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are not in need of reconditioning. The interior would be in excellent condition. Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *.
* "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle is not driven. It would generally be in a museum or transported in an enclosed trailer to concourse judging and car shows. This type of car would be stored in a climate-regulated facility.
There's nothing wrong with paying somewhat more to get a truly solid high quality car. You might "save" $4,000 on purchase and in a couple years spend it on stuff you weren't aware of before.
The thing is look at multiple cars if you can in person for comparison. As mentioned i saw a 54 Chevy at a cruise in for $10,500 and I told my pal i could find them on Ebay in that condition- it needed everything cosmetically for sure- all day long for probably $6-7,000. Well when I looked I found a goodly number of equal or better 54 Chevies for $4,500-$5500!!
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I have approached my vehicle with the concept that as a 1950 automobile i want it to appear as if it were a gently used car for sometime in the 50s. Not showroom new, but the way it actually looks, like a few year old daily drive on the road.
I sought out accessories that an owner in the 50s might have installed. It little stuff like repro Standard Oil Red Crown valve caps, an era-correct dash compass, a traffic light viewer, license toppers, the Thermador swamp cooler, 1950 plates, desert water bag, etc. I have a nice cane in rich wood I put against the seat. I wear a fedora at auto events. Others I've see lay them on the seats.
The thing is what YOU want your car to look like and be not so much what was common. These cars are no longer common. Who is to say your car can't represent one with beauty rings?
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You'll also find that younger guys even at savvy parts stores like NAPA will ask "who made Packard?" when they begin a search for you, like it was some sub-model of Chrysler or something.
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We agree that future generations should see cars as they were manufactured. But how many future generations are we talking here till gasoline is a thing of the past and EVERYTHING powered by it becomes static junk? That day is coming. Yeah some cars should be in museums but there won't be room for all of em.
As for influencing others whenever you show your original 51 county Squire or I my 50 Packard we're making the boldest viewpoint statement possible in regard to stock vs modded. But we can only go so far. If a guy at the same show has a 51 Woodie with aftermarkets rims, steering wheel and a non-stock upholstry job you certainly aren't going to tell him the error of his way or you might get a mouth full of knuckles.
While I almost never see another Packard at any event I've see pictures of 48-50 bathtubs with painted bumpers, chrome and V-8s. I mean how bad does ANY car look with bumpers originally finished in chrome and painted like the body. The owner is not worth talking to but viewers will easily see how great a mass of chrome looks as though it were 1950 again compared to painting it.
So keep taking your cars out a let people see them. That will do more than anything in promoting what decent stockers look like. Once you look at a few cars of the same model with some mods they quickly become mundane in a larger sense.
A forum such as this will not be read by anyone on the edge of deciding whether to stay stock or make mods anyhow. Showing the original beauty of your cars will.
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And note- that if you obtain a car that has set up and has rodents nests, poop, remains etc. do NOT attempt to clean it out without the proper air mask and eye protection. The Hanta Virus contributed to another illness I know of by a person that didn't protect themselves for the airborne junk when cleaning up an derelict old car. Be careful!
$100/barrel. What will it do?
in General Discussion
Posted
I can agree with Wayne and Ron insofar as the truly rare, high dollar vehicles must be trailered to be seen safely. There is a point where investment outweighs the NEED for Joe Doaks or the Gomer brothers to get a view of a $600,000 car driving on a freeway.
As for making fun of Pebble Beachers' cars and attitudes I'd be pretty damned paranoid if I'd just finished a 500K restoration of a 1938 Delage, Delahaye, Rolls, Talbot or Maserati with the usual fair of stumble-by hicks with their brood of sticky, drooling clones trailing behind at an auto event.
Guys with "regular" vintage vehicles are wary enough of viewers I've noticed with signs on all corners as they sit for hours, eyes on their cars.
As for upscale exotica, frankly I'd appreciate going to a venue where the best of show is a 1947 Cisitalia 202 or a 1939 Bughatti 57 instead of a 1957 Chevy or 1956 Ford.
The Concours people and the folks who actually run vintage race cars at real races have my vote for having all the trailered cars they can afford. Can you imagine destroying a Pegaso or Scarab even though you have the funds to rebuild it and race it again?
Thankfully the Concours people will continue to show their cars at safe venues whatever fuel costs. When spending $2 million to rebuild a race wrecked Maserati gasoline just becomes something to wash parts in.