Pierce66

Hi Bill: First of all..I aint no "hi flautin" lawyer. I am retired, and now enjoy being a LOW faultin car bum ! Second of all, there aint no library around here - at my ranch, out here in the middle of no-where (far west side of Hollis Hills, Long Island, New Yerk), my local buddies and I just shoot jack rabbets, chew tabacky, and drink beer (afterwards we shoot the cans..!) We aint got no tyme for no ditchinaries...! Seriously, BillP, I am aware of a number of extreme speed test runs with very exotic machinery PRIOR to even the early 1920's. But you have to wait until the introduction of the mighty "J" series Duesies before you will find the rear axle ratios, and power, sufficient to drive a production car over 100 mph. Please do NOT interpet this as making fun of the La Salle. It was a brilliant move by General Motors to "push" an upper mid-income car. It was certainly a good buy for the money. Of course it would not be fair to compare its performance with the much more expensive luxury cars of its day. But, c'mon, Bill P - 95 miles an hour ? AVERAGE of 95 miles an hour ? I'd like to know a bit more about that ! Now - here's something interesting. I just took delivery of a pretty well restored '28 Rolls Phantom. This thing has a 460 cu. in over-head valve engine, that was gone thru by a firm called MacDOnalds, apparently well known in the Rolls groups. Incidentally, they assure me they simply wont do an engine unless they can go to "insert" type rod bearings. Of course the motor in this thing, like all motors from the old days, is "crippled" by a low compression ratio, made necessary by the low octane fuels of the day. So while it is MUCH, MUCH more powerful than ANYTHING I am aware of in production in those years I rather doubt if it produces more than, say, around 300 ft lbs of torque, and about 150 h.p. Anyway, what it DOES have, is something that absolutely astonishes me. The thing is HIGH geared. BONE STOCK. The guy who ordered it new, was some kind of speed buff. Thing has about a 3.23 ratio, and THAT is on top of 21" wheels ! Even in LOW gear, it sort of "bogs". I am not crazy enough to see what its top speed is on the so called "reporduction" white walls now on it - but I would not be surprised if it would do close to ninety, or about 15-18 mph faster than any other car of that era of which I am aware. Of course it is silly to compare a twenty thousand dollar Rolls with a $1,000 LaSalle, so this is just for info. only (to get the equiv. purchasing power, multiply those numbers by about 25). Point is - I just learned something about the 1920's - until driving this Rolls for the first time, I had NO idea that REALLY high axle ratios, were available, even as an "option", that many years ago ( no, GM did not have such an option then). Woof !

For BILLp and ALBERT : Hi, guys - NOT picking on you personally - just curious. Exchanging ideas is how we learn from one another. Hey..BillP. A 1920's era La Salle going an AVERAGE of 95 mph ? Can you tell us more about this ? This dosn't jibe with my own knowledge of what middle-priced cars of that era could produce in the way of performance - in fact, I dont know of ANY General Motors car, even the biggest, most powerful, and most expensive ones, of the late 1920's that had either the rear axle ratios, or the raw power, to hit anywhere NEAR 95 mph. What am I missing ? Hey ALBERT. Where did you get the idea that leaded gasoline didn't come on the market until the 1950's "? "Dog Spot"

WARNING - PLEASE ! Do NOT "force" a generator to make the "appearance" of putting out electricity, by forcibly closing the "cut out" points by hand ! If there isn't enough VOLTAGE coming out of the generator to close these points, then there IS a failure in the system, and what you are doing is DANGEROUS ! Of COURSE, as you said in your "post", you feel the generator getting hot to the touch when you do this - because you are turning it into a "resistance heater", which is an excellant way to start a fire ! You are on the right track in trying to find EXPERT assitance ! Good luck - let us know how this all turns out ! Dog Spot

I have never seen a Lagonda V-12 ! What can you tell us about them ? What was their displacement, bore and stroke ? How were the cars geared ? Sadly, we had little exposure to European classics out here in the far west (ooops..I mean..western part of Hollis Hills, Long Island, New York) during those delightful early years of the Classic Car Club Of America. Of course I am partial to the large displacement "heavy iron" American classics. Tell us more about what to many of us Americans, is a mystery. "Dog Spot"

Hi Brian: Are you SURE you want to limit your interest in automotive matters to the time periods you specify ? I suspect you will find many of these guys in here will agree with me that it is fun and educational to enjoy as wide a range of automotive matters as you can. Yes - there are a number of books and stories floating around with all kinds of theories as to why Packard died. So many people with so many "axes" to grind. But the "bottom line" is...if you cant sell product, you cant keep a factory going. In Packard's case - again, they came out of the war fat with cash, that COULD have been plowed into product quality and development. No point in getting mad at me for simply reporting the REALITIES - I was personally present and saw the ever increasing sales resistance to Packard products as the 1950's unfolded. So many of us loved the Packard and all it represented so much, it was (and is ! ) practically a religion for some of us. But liking a particular car is only one way to enjoy our hobby. Other ways include trying to learn what we can about the industry and how these products came to be. It's fun to study this stuff. Incidentally, I dont have to READ about Packard's history...I LIVED a part of it..small part indeed...but I was "there". Best Regards "Dog Spot"

For Bill P: Chevrolet got away with poured babbit bearings until 1952 because it was a short stroke engine, with cars that were not THAT low geared, and, of course, road speeds were lower. Reciprocating loads were much MUCH lower than in engines like the old "in line" Packards. To my knowledge, no automotive manufacturer - NONE anywhere would DARE use poured babbit bearings in any power-plant rod application today. If you are really sincere in your belief of the acceptability of poured babbit, my suggestion is you write a paper for the S.A.E. Journal. In the case of Packard, poured babbet is a particularly bad choice, even for driving at speeds that would be considered modest by today's standards. Packard rods have more space between the finished surface of the rod bearing, and the "backing" of the rod, leading to greater opportunity for "pound out". Packard tried very hard to solve the "poured babbit pound-out" problem, going off in a number of directions, including, but not limited to oil coolers, and finally those beautiful finned rod caps that appeared in '34, just before they gave up on the practice, and started using the "insert" type rod bearing. Some of our Packard buffs may be aware of the "World's Fair Speed Record" Packard did as a sales "promo" with a "new" 1935 Standard Eight, to demonstrate how, when a car is equipped with modern "insert type" rod bearings, it can be run at extreme speeds all day (and night) without harm. The industry - wide introduction of the "insert" type rod bearing in the 1930's, in my view, was a land-mark and major event, because it permitted higher compression, higher bearing "wiping" speeds, and higher crank-pin loads, thus permitting power-plant designers to come up with the high rpm high power-per-lb. of machinery that we have today. Bill - you may mean well, but your information does a dis-service to those who want to actually drive their old cars. Remember, not only are we dealing with VERY long stroke engines in the case of Packards of that era, we are also dealing with extremely high reciprocating loads on the bearings, owing to low gearing. When a poured-babbet rod bearing fails on one of these long-stroke engines, it usually ruins the crank-pin, meaning still another engine-tear down. There is a wealth of information on the "hows and whys" the industry gave up on poured babbit, how durability in service increased, found in SAE Journals during that era. I strongly recommend to you and others reading these posts, that you go browsing thru old SAE Journals. Even tho written by "technicals" for "technicals", you will find them fairly reading, and most certainly will straighten out your mis-conceptions. Copies of the old SAE Journals can be found in just about any medium-sized city's library. We do not serve our fellow car buffs well if we waste time in personality disputes. Let's see what we can learn from each other; much more fun and efficient use of our fellow hobbyist's time. Dog Spot

Sounds like you have a bit of work ahead of you. Where is what "block" cracked. The grey-iron cylinder block, or the aluminum crankcase? Either CAN be welded, so dont give up if you cant find a replacement engine. I cant recall whether the six of that era had off-set crank-shaft counter-weights. If so, they have to come off to grind the crank-shaft. Crankshafts HAVE to be perfectly in spec. No tolerance for error. Again, a job for a firm that specializes in this stuff. You need a machine shop that can figure out how to put "insert" type rod bearings in the rods. Poured babbit DID work under the driving conditions of the 1920's, when it was rarely possible to go over 35 mph, and when you did, not for long periods of time. On long-stroke engines, poured babbit is an invitation to screw up a freshly re-built engine BIG TIME. Dont worry about modern gas or oil. They are VASTLY supeior than what was available in the old days. Only problem is 'vapor lock', caused by the much much higher "Ried Vapor Pressure" of today's fuels - so an electric fuel pump, mounted as close to the gas tank, and as low as possible, is a "must" for warm weather driving. I'd fix the vacuum tank up just for show. I cant recall when the last six was built...if recollection serves, there was no six in 1928 - that was the year they introduced its replacement for the lower priced line of Packard cars, the so called "standard eight". I am a bit of a purist - while the '28 "standard eight" would probably fit in your chassis, I personally would not alter the car. It is what it is, and should be respected as a historical artifact ( by now the guys who read "Cheif's" remarks to the lady with the Caddy, have figured out the whole thing was a "put on" to smoke out the LEGITIMATE car buffs in here...!). As for cam rollers - you will find the arms and rollers themselves are the same-well - SHOULD be the same - my recollection is there was some "in year production changes" that COULD give you fits..obviously, the mounting platforms are different given the different cylinder config. Dont be bashful to ask questions...the more questions that are asked...the more everyone learns - including me ! Dog Spot

Packard V-8: You weren't listening. Again, there IS NO REGULATOR circuit in Packards (and any other car, I presume) prior to 1935. Cars of his era had "THIRD BRUSH" type generators, that had NO regulation. NONE. Only, as Ed Miller put it, an "on off switch", or "generator cut out relay". This relay has only ONE function. When it receives voltage HIGHER than the battery plate voltage, it closes. The generator then charges at a given rate, depending on rpm and ambient temperature. A generator can be "bad", yet still show SOME out-put. In this fellow's case, he discovered that by physically closing the cut-out relay's points with his hand, he could see a "charge" indication on his ammeter. So what ! Obviously the cut-out relay wasnt sensing enough VOLTS to "close" its points. Eleven times out of ten, this is the classic symptom of a bad generator - however, given the other problems, the "cut out" relay is most likely gone too. Obviously, some basic shop techniques (such as using a "growler" to check the armature, and meters to check the field coil) , are not that difficult for someone FAMILIAR with electrical systems. YOU may be technically competent to analyize and repair electrical generating and regulating equipment, but this fellow is the first to admit he is not. So - again, let's encourage him to get COMPETENT help. This is NOT something for the so called "back yard mechanic". I will bet a chocolate chip cookie that there are enough of the old guys around, that SOMEWHRE near him is a shop that will KNOW what it is looking at, and fix him right up. And a Cherry Good Morning from Cal Worthington's Dog Spot !

Hate to be the bearer of bad news - sounds to me BOTH the "cut out" relay AND your generator are gone. If your generator was producing more than the minimum VOLTS and the cut-out relay was all right, the points should have closed. Seven AMPS ? Nowhere near enough - my guess is either a bad armature, bad field coils, or BOTH. Again - I am just making wild guesses without being there with test equipment. Again, strongly recommend you find a REAL generator guy who KNOWS the stuff from that era. Sorry I cant be of more help. Dog Spot

If you look thru this forum, you should be able to find car clubs near you. Many car buffs, such as myself, certainly enjoy helping out in "historical interest" events like this. However, we are a little bit skittish about the risk to our cars. When you present your proposal to car clubs and/or the individual car owners, I suggest you emphasize on whatever security steps you are taking to protect the cars. A well-meaning but thoughtless public can do TENS of thousands of dollars to a collector car. Just the other day, a particularly well-formed and barely dressed young lady was about to climb onto and sit on the hood of my "new" '28 Rolls, and use the Flying Lady radiator ornament as a grab-rest ! Needless to say, my words of discouragment to her, were not particularly kind and gentle...! When I am "propositioned" to bring my collector cars to a public event, I am more receptive if the promoter assures me the cars will be roped off, AND there will be some kind of "security" watching over the cars. Boy Scout troops and high school ROTC units often are willing to do this, just for the fun of being close to the cars. Sadly, since 1960, high school ROTC units no longer are equipped with real army rifles, so they can't shoot the people who try and tinker with our cars. Wish I were closer to you - unfortunately, you are way too far away from me for me to help out personally. Good Luck - sounds like fun. Greetings and best wishes from the swamps of Hollis Hills, Long Island, New York Dog Spot

For JT: Shhhhhhhhh !

The original "cut out" was NOT sealed or crimped. Probably replaced in the late 50's, when "crimped" electrical control boxes (assuming my memory is correct) first started to appear. Good luck Dog Spot

Packin - wish I could do a better job of helping you - but from a distance, not much I can do. I STRONGLY recommend you find an automotive electrical shop that actually WORKS on electrical equipment (rather than just "change out" units..which is pretty much the rule today). I can't tell much from your discussions. Even if there was NOTHING wrong with either your generator, or your cut-out, if you were to take the cover off the cut-out, and physcially close the "contacts" with your hands, your ammeter would show "discharge", since the battery voltage would be trying to turn your generator into a motor! Remember, your generator drive is what aligns the timing chain - dont try and turn over your motor with the generator off ! Best of luck - wish I could be of more help ! Dog Spot

Albert - PLEASE...stop confusing the poor guy by using the term "regulator". Assuming the charging system in pre '35 Packards is of the "original" type..THERE IS NO REGULATOR. As Ed Miller notes, it is simply a "cut out" relay, that closes when the charging voltage is up, opens when the generator slows down to the point it is producing less than battery voltage. From his description, this guy may have several problems INSIDE the generator, including, but not limited to shorted field coils, bad armature, as well as possibly having "fried" the cut-out relay. Just getting all that stuff wet probably is un-related to his troubles. Incidentally, when they are working properly, you can set the "third brush" on them so they produce upwards of 15 amps, which should be enough, assuming standard bulbs, to "keep ahead" of the drain for night driving. Gawd..think about it..how spoiled we are with today's alternators - typical car today produces well over 60 amps at 12 volts...which would be 120 amps at 6 volts! Sorry, I dont know the Chicago area as it is today - but this is a job for someone who understands these now obsolete systems. Dog Spot

Brian - NO way Packard could have survived. Bottom line - it had so ruined its reputation with poor "build quality", towards the end, you couldn't give em away. If you look at the yearly sales figures, you will see there was a big but very short "jump" in sales, when they started to advertise the '55's, with the big advertising campaign focused on the "Packard Is Back" theme. Trouble was, when the actual cars got into the hands of the public, word spread about how much trouble they were, and that was it. What is so sad and unnecessary about all this, is that Packard pioneered so much of our technical history - their engineers literally "set the standard" for engineering drawings, along with so many other contributions to automobile technology, INCLUDING the V-8. Packard was a pioneer in V type engines, and its legendary reputation for quality and performance served them well. That's the tragedy - they came out of World War Two fat with profits, that COULD have been plowed into product development. Instead, they elected to "muddle thru" with products that were neither technically nor qualitatively competitive. Yes, I have seen that "promo" movie of how superior the torsion ride was. Great gimmick. Trouble is, most people dont buy a car to "jump" it over a railroad grade crossing. New car buyers want a trouble-free car. New car buyers are typically NOT automotive hobbyists who are willing to "tinker". The traditional Packard slogan "Ask The Man Who Owns One" served them well when the product was something to be proud of. Tragically, that same slogan was what killed them when the increasingly poor product quality made them a laughing stock. Sometimes, a clear-eyed view of history isnt pleasant. There is much to learn, and much we can benefit as individuals, from a review of the rise and fall of the Packard Motor Car Company. Of course we all wish it had a happy ending... "Dog Spot"

Hi Randall: Best of luck on your "new" '56 Cad. Great choice for an old car buff - sounds like you, with a little work, will have a great car! I have followed your various "posts" for some time, and thus know you and your son MEAN well, but you are the first to admit you are not experienced technicians. Please...PLEASE...before you break anything...ASK us ! There is a wealth of technical info. you can access from the guys in here...just ASK ! There is NO such thing as a stupid question about old cars. The only stupidity, is going ahead without utilizing the support we fellow car buffs are more than happy to provide. Yeah..yeah...we have our differences...c'mon..Randall...that pick up truck of yours is a "classic".......? Yeah...right...! Now... ASK us...I am sure all the car buffs in here feel the same way - we want to help ! I had a number of '50's Cads over the years, in addition to the ones I worked on as a kid when working as a mechanic to put myself thru school. I am SURE there are LOTS of guys in here even BETTER informed on this stuff than I am. All you have to do, is "post" your questions ! From the deepest darkest regions of the hills of Hollis, on far away Long Island, New York...... Dog Spot

Yeah - I "second" that about FIVE POINTS. Used em on those "knee action" typeson a number of pre 50's cars that came into the shop. They are great. Expensive, but worth it. Now, 'bout your quesion on fluids. You cant really go wrong if you stick to legit. consumer grade lubricants. For liability reasons, they HAVE to be good, and "good" today, means so vastly superior to the crap we had when I was a kid, it aint funny. For shocks, no problem. Any auto parts store should have hydraulic fluid. Now, given todays clerks, I would NOT tell them what you want. I'd just nose around till I found cans of either "tractor fluid" or "hydraulic jack" fluid. For transmissions and rear ends, again, you cant go wrong today. That is, unless you start listening to the damn fool self appointed "experts". AMY modern generic 90W gear oil will probably say something like "extreme pressure gear lubricant". Last time I bought some, I bought some that is rated 80W-140. Good stuff. Oh, I suppose in a really worn out transmission, it wouldn't be thick enough on a really hot day to act like a "brake" on the gears in your tranny, so, if you are "into" fast shifts, your synchros might work as fast as they should, but otherwise, would be just fine. C'mon, guys, am I the only old timer in here ? You mean NOBODY knows what the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway was ?

chrome bolt..? Or was it originally NICKLE plated... ? ? Dog Spot Oh, by the way, when you put that starter back in, how 'bout ignoring the "stock" ground wire, and add a ground, ONE CONTINIOUS WIRE, going DIRECLY from the POSITIVE terminal on the battery, to the engine block. And dont use lamp-cord, either. At LEAST "0". If the starter is in reas. condition, it will crank over like gang-busters, the way Packard built em, from then on. Anyone else know the Queens area around Hollis ? Bet not too many of you know what the Vanerbilt ExpressWay was !

how 'bout anything and I mean ANYTHING with a Lucas electrical system ?

Wow...an antique car that will "peel rubber" in three of its gears ? Hey J446 what kind of antique are you talking about - that dosnt sound like the antique cars I work with. By the way, where are you in New York City area. Do you know about the old Vanderbilt Motor Speedway ? It ran right behind our house-in fact, sections of it are still there. Dog Spot

I agree. Hotter an engine runs, the better. This was not true in the old days, when the primitive oils would 'thin out' and 'coke up', with bearing damage and sticky valves. With today's oils, I use thermostats in all my vehicles (and I have owned vehicles from pretty much every era) that get them as hot as I can. ( the above presumes a cooling system that is in good condition ) Dog Spot