MikeC5
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Posts posted by MikeC5
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The first few minutes of this video explains how the warping effect from shot peening is quantified and related to the intensity of peen. The panel warps up towards the shot peen side because compressive residual stress from all those little hammer blows push against each other causing the panel to warp. The compressive residual stress layer on the part surface also helps prevent cracks from beginning and growing (why it's used on highly stressed parts that are subject to fatigue cracking).
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In case anyone was wondering, I ordered and received springs from a vendor who advertised them as 9 gauge wire. I asked them to measure the wire diameter and was told it's 'about' 1/8" diameter. That's closer to AWG than the other scales. So I get the springs and the wire actually measures 0.148" consistently. According to the attached, that's 9 gauge on the Stubs/Birmingham scale. I guess the moral is, if it's important, order one and measure it before ordering a pile of them. In my case, the least rusted springs measure around 0.133", so I'm going with the the 0.148" wire springs. Same for the edge wire from another vendor. 9 gauge and measures 0.148" diameter. https://www.pyromation.com/Catalog/w03.pdf
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Rear seat frame completed. The welding did result in a bow to the forward tube. The first picture shows the 'stress relief' fixture. I heated the u-channel side with oxy-propane to orange hot then air cool. Straightened it up pretty well.
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In the last quarter of this video, he does give some clues about removing some of the stuffing to transition the end of the tube to flat. But then he rolls over part of the pleat to keep the width constant which does not seem to be how it was done in the last photo from my previous post.
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Hi Cutdown, I think I understand what you're saying now. My guess would be that you need to stretch out the cover and flatten the tubes as much as they will be when final fitted to the spring assembly and then sew the front skirt on. I'm not sure how exactly this would be done and I haven't gotten to that step yet on mine. I think part of the question is, does the cotton stuffing inside the tube get tapered down thinner as it approaches the forward edge of seat? In the last photo of my previous post, it does appear they somehow managed to keep the tube width constant right up to the skirt attachment. Perhaps you can temporarily tack the seat cover the the springs, stretching and flattening out the tubes and then somehow pin the front skirt in place. Then make a mark at each joint (between tubes) and a matching mark on the skirt. Then when sewing on the skirt, you have to make sure you stretch out the tube enough so the marks line up before stitching that section. I'll have to do some digging on Youtube and see what I can find....
I'm also planning to cover the spring assembly in canvas rather than burlap but do not know how much 'pre-compression' of the spring is considered normal. Maybe we'll get a little advice from someone who has done this before.
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Hi Cutdown, I have a '25 but yours looks very similar. My front seat spring measured at the forward edge was also about 8 &1/2 inches. There wasn't much left of the original horse hair and leather but I think it was less than 2". As for the seat back, it has 3 hooks that secure the the top of the seat frame to slots in the sheet metal (see photo). The lower part of the frame has tabs with bolt holes. Bolts secure the bottom of the frame to captured nuts on sheet metal in places. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about the pleats (tubes) narrowing where they meet the front skirt. Do you mean less cotton inside the pleat? I also attached a photo of front seat in a '25 that I saw at Hershey a few years ago.
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As I mentioned in an earlier post, the vendors do not know if AWG is the measurement system used. Unfortunately, AWG isn't the only measurement system to call wire diameter 'gauge'. I posted this link earlier which shows that a given gauge wire diameter can differ considerably depending on which measurement system is used.....
https://www.pyromation.com/Catalog/w03.pdf If I could get them to put a caliper on a spring, I could deduce which system is used....
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Right, a car doesn't have to be flooded to be a rust bucket. If it lives near the coast, salty air infiltrates and any unpainted surfaces will rust. It tends to occur from the top down as salt laden moist air condenses on inner body surfaces instead of rust belt cars where they rust from the bottom up due to salted roads. Maybe inspection of hard to reach places with a bore scope might help reveal hidden rust.
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Thanks Guys. I think the biggest challenge will be making the pleated leather seat covers. I've got a pile of Youtube videos, some books/articles, an old Singer 111 walking foot sewing machine and scraps of the original seats to get me going. It should make a good winter project. I have to start shopping for hides..
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A small update, the perimeter spring retainer is welded in place on the front seat base. The channel is easily crimped over the edge of the springs.
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It seems Restoration Supply co. actually tells you the spring wire diameter in inches (0.135")... what a concept. But they do not specify the gauge so I'm still looking for that Rosetta Stone. Too bad they're twice the price of many upholstery supply places.
https://restorationstuff.com/shop/#fb0=49
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I realize that I won't find exact duplicates of the original springs (unless maybe I have them custom made) but at least in outward appearance, these hourglass upholstery springs look pretty much the same. I suspect there aren't that many manufacturers of them and retail supplies come from the same few factories. Short of designing a spring to match the originals (including estimating the spring constant from the old springs) and having them made, the best I can do is try to match the shape, number of turns and wire diameter. I certainly won't hurt to try asking one of the mattress manufacturers too.
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I sent notes to a couple of manufacturers and asked a few suppliers to ask their suppliers. We'll see.
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Thanks Digger. One other thing that I can't seem to nail down is what gauge definition is used for these types of springs? Retail suppliers advertise 8 or 9 gauge springs but none of them can tell me what diameter wire they're made from (calipers are in short supply, it seems). There are a few different gauge definitions; AWG, SWG, Birmingham, Music wire, etc.. All of these have a different diameter (in inches) for a 9 gauge wire. I'd like to be sure I'm getting springs with the same (or close) wire diameter. Anyone have any insight on this?
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Ha ha! That's good to know, no need to worry about it.
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An old mattress or two might give you some of the springs but not all. The springs vary in height, front to back. On the front cushion, they go from 4" to 8" (4, 5, 6, 7, 8). This is what gives the seat a wedge shape which, I believe, is to provide thigh support. The rear seat cushion goes 5, 6, 7, 8, 9" springs. Because of the hourglass shape of them, I don't think trying to cut down longer ones to makes shorter ones would work very well (you would end up with different diameters on the large end depending on how much is trimmed off).
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I took a drive this afternoon to a nearby deserted industrial park (Sunday) and practiced shifting. I did have some success but still need much more practice to be consistent. Thank you all for your tips on this. One thing I noticed while doing this is no matter what I tried, I could not prevent a short duration 'crunch' when shifting out of top gear to neutral. When the mainshaft gear is sliding out of its pocket inside the speedo gear, it's rotating at mainshaft speed (which is dictated by car speed through the rear end and driveshaft). At essentially the same time, this gear is engaging the more/less stationary counter shaft gear. Not sure how you can avoid some grinding here. Or does it indicate my clutch is not adjusted properly (not fully disengaging?)
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Thanks, I'm going to print this out and have it with me in the car. Maybe even just sitting in the car in the garage (not running) and going through the motions will help.
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Thanks for the tip David. I will double check this. One thing I also recently found out; there is more than one standard that define the diameter of wire to 'gage'. It appears the most common one is the AWG (American Wire Gage) which seems to be used only for conductors (as in electrical wiring). Then there is U.S. Standard Gage, which is significantly different. I need to contact some of these suppliers and ask for the actual wire diameter to avoid confusion.... https://www.pyromation.com/Catalog/w03.pdf
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So sorry to see this Mathew but the important thing is you were not seriously injured and will recover quickly.
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22, I think you're correct. But I think any 'crash box' that requires sliding of gears would be classified as such. This photo shows a constant mesh 5 speed (Subaru) gear box. The gears are always in mesh. A 'modern' standard trans uses synchronizers to get the gears to equal speed for shifting and things called 'dogs' do the sliding the engage or disengage the gears.
I see what you mean Tony, when you shift from top gear to neutral, the counter shaft is reengaged. I think I'm just not revving the engine enough to get 2nd gear to mesh. From your description Minibago, it sounds like you need to shift quickly after getting the revs up. I'll keep trying...
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Perhaps but I also like to get experience and learn some new skills during the way. The seat bases are simple enough that I'm giving it a try (see my thread over in DB section) https://forums.aaca.org/topic/377743-fabricating-seat-spring-assembly/#comment-2369335
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Without a 3D model or seeing it live, that's the best description I've seen on how it works. These annotated photos may also help a bit. The key thing that the diagrams don't really explain is that the speedometer drive spiral gear is really 2 gears in one (it drives the speedometer gear/cable and see following). The first photos shows the main shaft of the trans with cover removed. The red arrow points to the input shaft, which will be turning at engine speed unless clutch pedal is pushed down (disengaging engine from transmission). The blue arrow points to the speedo spiral gear. The first sliding gear on the main shaft (yellow arrow) can slide forward and back on the main shaft as can the other straight-cut gears on main shaft. When you move the shift lever, the shift forks slide the gears forward or aft depending on gear selected. This lets the main shaft gears engage (or not) the gears on the counter shaft (the gears do not slide forward/aft on counter shaft). Getting back to the speedo gear, the second photo shows what this gear looks like in its hollow interior (blue arrow). It's really a 'negative' of the first sliding gear on the main shaft. When you select top gear, the shift fork moves this sliding gear into its 'negative' pocket inside the speedo gear, thus locking them together. At the same time, the other shift forks move the other two gears on main shaft so they do not mesh with counter shaft gears. The result is that drive torque is transmitted through the main shaft alone and and the counter shaft just sits there unengaged, not turning. I added a few other photos that may help too.
While the idea of disengaging the counter shaft in top gear may make the transmission quieter, etc., it also makes it much more difficult to achieve a top gear to 2nd gear downshift. In order to down shift in a non-synchronized gear box, the driver must try and bring the main shaft gear and counter shaft gears up to the same rpm so the teeth can mesh (otherwise, they will grind loudly). This trick is called 'double clutching' and it goes something like this: push in clutch, blip the throttle, shift to neutral, let out clutch, push in clutch, blip throttle again, shift to 2nd (this is how it's explained for a conventional gearbox where the counter shaft is never disengaged), But in the DB transmission, when driving along in top gear the counter shaft is sitting still. Only the viscosity of the transmission oil will (hopefully) drag the counter shaft gears along to help a downshift. This is one reason why really thick trans oil will (sometimes) help with downshifts although I have never been able to get a clean downshift myself (which may be a lack of proper technique on my part).
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I like it! The yellow looks good on it.
Fabricating Seat Spring assembly
in Dodge & Dodge Brothers
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Thanks Matt. I'm having to do some modification on the springs because the ends are too large in diameter. Will post detail later.