JV Puleo
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Posts posted by JV Puleo
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To drill the holes for the cotter pins I squared off a block of steel. I think it's 3/4" x 1-3/8" but the size is not terrible important.
Then into the drill press to put a hole through it the long way.
Reamed to 1/2". It's purposely off center top to bottom to give the set screw that will secure the bolt a few more threads.
Without moving the vice, I turned it down and put a center hole in for the pin hole, them moved it down to drill a tap for a 1/4-20 set screw. By keeping the same orientation on the piece these holes will come out perfectly centered on the long hole without having to measure anything.
I then moved ot over to my small drill press and drilled the pin hole through the block. The hole size is about .100 for a 3/32 cotter pin.
Then it's just a matter of putting each bolt in the fixture, locking it with the set screw and drilling the hole.
All done, or at least as done as I can now. The last two bolts at the front of the line are not threaded yet. Those go through brackets that are riveted to the chassis with bolts in them that will have to be cut off. The brackets have to come off to be bushed so there is nothing to be gained by not waiting until I have the bracket in hand to measure before trimming and threading the bolts They are, otherwise, finished.
I packed everything away on a shelf in a box labeled "shackle bolts"...
Now I can go back to the engine.
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That is really a good looking car, from a period when very few seem to have been really attractive. The great ones are really great but most are, to me, fairly ugly (and I like the period...at least the mechanical aspects).
If you haven't already thought of it, can you take the muffler apart? It may well have one of those mufflers with the removable cast ends. It might be a good idea to make sure it isn't full of mouse nests.
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I think we have to ask ourselves "what modifications are needed" if we want to use old (by that I mean pre-war) vehicles rather than cart them around on a trailer. The changes you've made to this truck are both subtle and, given we aren't going to drive them on the roads of the 1930s, in keeping with safety and modern circumstances. The truth is, nearly ALL "restorations" include some modifications...some for reasons of driveability but more simply because the material and techniques used at the time are no longer available. How many restorers brush paint a brass car...yet they were ALL done that way...or use iron pistons in an engine which are, for the most part, unobtainable. A car like Edinmass in currently working on is exceptional and it's appropriate that everything be done to preserve it as is but that isn't applicable to 99% of the "restorations" out there. If I have any problem at all with restoration its the hypocrisy of saying "your modifications are wrong but mine are ok"...
Cars are mechanical devices meant to be used. As such, keeping them working is a chore and it always involves a certain amount of creative engineering. Personally, I detest "rodding" an early car but I don't think subtle changes for the sake of remaining usable falls into that category. There are plenty of cars left that are beyond any practical use other than making them into something they never were... I only wish the "rod" community would stick to those. If they did, It would hand them the ethical high ground regarding preservation...like making an old brick factory building into apartments. We could be thankful for what is preserved.
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If I were going to try to fix those threaded holes I would bore them out and make a brass or bronze sleeve, with a fine external thread secured with Locktite and the internal thread as it is or, if whatever attaches there can be modified, a slightly smaller inside diameter to add thickness to the sleeve. I wouldn't do that until after the stitching is done but it would give you a threaded diameter that is completely free of whatever flaws the stitching leaves. The truth is, there aren't many people who could make the parts but you've demonstrated that you are one of them! I've made sleeves with a wall thickness as little as 1/16".
To bore the holes accurately I'd use an end mill ground to the desired diameter...that may be had to find or someone to grind it so if you needed one I'd be glad to organize it for you and mail it. It will also be necessary to buy a special tap...those are readily available. Fine threads are not generally used in cast iron but I don't feel that applies when the piece is going to be locked in place forever.
Oh...and I'd make the sleeves first so you know they will work...a little long so the surface can be fly-cut after they are in place.
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Today I drilled and tapped the holes for the Zerk fittings.
Then set the drill press up to drill the little holes the grease comes out of. I did this with a small center drill which will give me a tapered hole and made certain to go through only one side of the bolt.
With all the holes drilled. I blew them out to get rid of any small chips and screwed in the grease fittings.
All that remains to be done is to drill the holes for the split pins. I'll make a fixture for that. I have them for 3/8" and 7/16" but I've never made one in 1/2".
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That's interesting. I wonder if there was any standard for carburetors on vehicles sold to the government? I expect not... I cut a lot of odd threads. In fact, I learned to single-point threads because what was available over the counter was often not what I needed so I can empathize with your problem.
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4 hours ago, John_Mereness said:
When the Selden patent expired, what had been the technical committee of the ALAM reorganized itself as the Society of Automotive Engineers. The current SAE is the direct descendent of the ALAM. The SAE threads were standardized by them after WWI when the government decided it would not buy any motor vehicles that did not use a standard threading system. This resulted from the logistical problems multiple threads caused during the war.
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That is good to know. I had presumed that proper lubrication of the shackles was important to the ride and the handling but I've never undertaken this sort of job with a car I drove afterward. I don't think I've even taken out an original bolt that didn't have the hole in the center plugged with hardened grease.
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In between replacing all the plumbing in my house I have managed to get a little done on the Mitchell project. I finished drilling the center holes in the bolts. This proved to be a long process because I was going very slowly making sure not to break a drill. To finish them I needed a longer than normal drill. These are tricky to use because in a small size like this (1/8") they want to flex. I drilled the holes most of the way with a conventional drill, then went back and did them again with the long drill. The hole that was there served to support the long drill so even though it was slow, it did get done without mishaps.
In order to get the holes to a uniform depth, I used my "tail-stock depth fixture". I made this a long time ago because there is no scale on the quill of the lathe. If you want to drill a hole to a specific depth you have to guess. This isn't accurate to more than a few thousandths but it has proved a real godsend.
Then the bottom of the cavity in the bolts was flattened using a center-cutting end mill held in an ER collet.
And a #3 hole drilled 3/8" deep...this was the test.
I threaded the hole and screwed in a small Zerk fitting. I know this isn't entirely kosher but it's important to get grease into the spring eyes and I'm making all these pieces to such a close tolerance that I like the idea of having a pressurized grease gun to push it in. Also, since I soldered the tops on the caps I'm not sure how much pressure they can take but used simply as dust covers they won't be a problem. And, greasing the springs will be easier and cleaner.
Since I now know it works, I'll go ahead and do the remainder of the bolts.
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I'd use a hard fiber washer under the lock washer...
Copper crush washers should do as well but are only good for a single use unless re-annealed.
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That is a great planer Jeff, just the right size. I've yet to get mine operational but looking forward to using it.
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1 hour ago, edinmass said:
No clue.......since every late model White has a different ignition system, there is no hard and fast rule. Interested in hearing your thoughts, I expected it to have an Eisemann unit on it.......car is very unmolested.........and the bracket holding it in looks factory to me. Thoughts?By 1917 impulse starters were commonplace. What make mag is it? I've seen a National Archives photo of the testing room at American Bosch for impulse starters. The first impulse starter was patented by Unterberg & Helme (U&H Magneto) about 1908. They called it the "snap starter". I think that the Bosch system of having a separate starting coil, the "Bosch Dual Magneto" with a starting and running position on the switch was a work-around to avoid the U&H patents - U&H did have a US patent on their system. By 1917 that had been accomplished because the U&H patent would not have run out until around 1920-22. Another possibility is that because U&H was a German company, it is likely that all their patents were seized by the Alien Property Custodian when WWI started. That's the genesis of the American Bosch company - the assets of the German company were seized and sold so American Bosch was not the American outlet of the German company. The same thing happened with Bayer Asprin... the American company bought the rights to the name during WWI.
I also notice that the crankshaft has balance weights on it. That's a real sign of high quality work. Their value was understood but practically all the makers did without them because it was so much more expensive. It was cheaper to de-tune the engine so it wouldn't over rev...It will be interesting to see if they are forged in one piece with the crank or bolted on. I think the bolted-on type came earlier. I know I've seen them illustrated c1910.
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So...it doesn't have ball bearings. That is interesting since I think all the other gas Whites do.
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Remembering when I started in the old car world - now more than 40 years ago - virtually no one was in the 20s or 30s or even 40s. I was in my 20s but that was considered VERY unusual and I submit I was probably the youngest brass car owner any of them had ever met. The same can be said for the CCCA Classics...most of the owners were anywhere from their mid 50s to 80s so I don't see any dramatic change taking place. Perhaps the impression of change is created by the increased interest in much later post-war cars which has, for me at least, killed any interest in attending the local shows. The advent of "trailering" cars to shows, and competition for "perfection" hasn't helped either...when pretty much everyone drove to the show there was some incentive to going on the spur of the moment. If you have to own a towing rig, worry about trailer parking and prepare everything in advance attending a show becomes a major undertaking and it's easy to see why many potential enthusiasts can't be bothered.
Back in the 70s I stopped at a friend's house one Sunday morning. He happened to mention that there was s show in Brookline, at the Lars Anderson Museum that day so we all piled into my 26 Cadillac and drove to Boston. That doesn't sound like something that would happen now but I remember it as one of the best shows I've ever attended. It was there I saw an unrestored 1911 Locomobile 48 and a similarly unrestored Steven Duryea (about 1910)...both driven in by their owners. Ed Roy was there with his model Simplex's...and I met "Mr. Johnson" the magneto expert who restored mags for George Waterman and had tuned S.F. Edge's car for the Gordon Bennet race in 1905.
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About 90% of the problems people have with cone clutches is a result of wear rather than design...the lining is certainly important and I wouldn't use anything but leather but it is also very important that whatever the clutch slides on, usually a bushing in the center that fits over the end of the crankshaft, be in good condition. If is is worn the clutch can tip slightly and it will not engage smoothly no matter what you use for a lining. The Silver Ghost RR had a cone clutch and I've never heard any of the common complaints about it...but it was exceptionally well made. Dynamic balancing wasn't available in 1918 but they did balance clutches statically. If it is in balance, with a good fitting central bushing, it will come out and in perfectly straight.
I can see from your photos that you have little spring-loaded plungers to push the facing material out a tiny bit. Those were there to prevent grabbing so it would be a good idea to replace the springs with new ones that have a known spring rate. The amount they push out is not as critical as the requirement that they all be the same. Cone clutches are fine but, like many things on old cars, require adjustments that the vast majority of modern mechanics have never seen.
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It looks like a spring-loaded clutch brake designed to slow the clutch down when it is disengaged. That would explain the sacrificial material and the worn grooves but I don't see how it would effect the grabbing issue unless it is too worn and and the clutch is spinning too fast. If that is the case, it might buck when initially engaged but I can't see why it would do so when disengaging.
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I haven't been on a "car adventure" for 40 years...this is the next best thing!
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There are plenty of people here who can likely identify some of them but you have to post them one at a time...how can we see them clearly if there is another picture obscuring half the car.
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I finished the threading...not a difficult job but still it takes time when you have 13 of them to do...the last two can't be done until I've removed the mounting from the frame. I'm not confident I'd measure it perfectly and there is very little room to work with on that one.
Next I have to drill them. I started by putting a center hole in each...
And then set up the lathe to drill. The hole in the center is 1/8". This is also a tedious job because the holes are about 2-1/2" deep and the last thing you want is to break a drill off . That would effectively ruin the piece as there is no good way to get a broken drill out. The answer is to be very careful and take you time...which will be a lot less than if you destroy one and have to make it over.
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Frank, I think you are a sheet metal genius. I'm not sure I would even have attemped to fix that much less succeed.
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In between re-plumbing my house, I've been pressing on with the shackle bolts.
I now had to trim them to the exact length. I cannon, however use the 5C collets with the stop at the bottom because the 7/8 hex on the bolts will not fit inside the 5C. It will fit inside the old collets that came with the lathe but those have no provision for a stop. In order to put each bolt in the collet so it was protruding exactly the same amount I made a sleeve to go over it, inside the collet.
I trimmed one to exactly the length I wanted and set up stops on the late bed. In this way I was able to do the others so that they all came out identical...the bolts for the front springs are 1/4" shorter than those for the rear springs because the rear springs are that much wider.
I used the same technique to set the grooving tool to cut the relief for the threads.
And repeated the process for the threading. This is the first one. I only finished 3 before I decided to call it a day.
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Yes, they are both on the big size for what most "home shop" machinists are looking for but not too big for a garage. To my mind, tiny "bench top" machines are of marginal use unless all you ever work on is very small parts. The lathe, despite it's age (it could be pre-WWI but I suspect about 1918–1925) is infinitely more capable than any of the mid-size Chinese imports although using it will engender a learning curve. You can't use carbide tooling very well on these older machines because the speeds are too low but I've never had a problem with high speed steel and it's much cheaper...it's a situation where none of this stuff is viable from a commercial point of view but that has only made it readily accessible to hobbyists.
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This is slightly off topic but may be of interest. If anyone reading this thread in the New England area is thinking about undertaking this sort of work I have a friend who is disposing of some machines. These are in a shop building he owns. The gentleman who operated the shop was a long time friend of his but died unexpectedly. My friend is stuck trying to dispose of the tools so he can rent the building. There is a Reed-Prentice Lathe and a Bridgeport mill. Reed-Prentice was a good machine, much favored by the Navy. I know very little about Bridgeports but this one is not the early "round ram" type. I believe it takes R8 collets which are common as dirt and cheap. The machines are in Upton, Mass and the building does have a loading door. If anyone is interested, send me a PM and I can put you in touch with the owner. His son lives next door so even if he's not available, viewing them is possible. They haven't been advertised anywhere as yet. Although I haven't done it, I believe both could be powered up and they must have single phase motors because the building does not have 3-phase service, although there may be a phase converter...I didn't look but I am certain all the tooling for each machine will go with it. I don't have prices but I know the owner to be very reasonable and realistic. Chances are, any reasonable offer would be readily accepted...
Ten or fifteen years ago I'd have been all over this lathe but I have no need, or room for another.
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I'll second what Matt says. I was in the mail-order printing business for many years with my late father. He always said that the satisfied customer outnumber the complainers by 10 to one and most of the "complaints" were based on trivialities... I always take adverse comments with a grain of salt unless the person making the complaint mentions something specific and explains what the problem is. That isn't to say all vendors are good - they certainly aren't but the internet is a very poor way of judging.
A retired professor friend of mine once said that the internet was "the most effective means of disseminating bad information ever invented."
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For John348 & Padgett...homemade tool solutions
in General Discussion
Posted
That was an EXTREMELY good idea. As someone who often does things the hard way, I really appreciate clever tools and that is one of the best I've ever seen.