Gunsmoke
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Posts posted by Gunsmoke
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There were a variety of means of bolting up. Check your long brace for 2 old bolt holes, that should help you figure out where the original clamps went, and based on their spacing, just what type of secondary bracket went to car chassis. Typically the U-bolts were much closer to frame horns, as this left a 2' cantilever of rear brace in front of each wheel to allow it to flex on impact with something without kinking/bending. So typically the clamps would be 1" or 2" from outside of frame horns. The rusty car shows the special frame bracket with an "eye" on end to take a vertical bolt. Those may be tough to find, but a spring shop can do that if you really wanted to match originals, mind you, you would have to make a very accurate pattern as the bolt location in side of frame are critical and the "eye" must be perfectly vertical when installed. Once you have figured out what configuration you want (any choice will be fine) ask for missing parts in buy/sell area.
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First problem is the bumper bracket is mounted backwards, the curved outer ends of the bracket should turn towards the tires. This bracket may also need a bit of tweaking so center mounting point will allow bumper to be in a straight line (like Viv's photos show). Then it should be a matter of straightening the 2 front bars, not an easy task as they are typically heavy spring steel. A heavy truck shop should have a spring re-arching machine to set them correct for you if you take them all 3 pieces. That's what I would do, make a diagram for the shop showing what you want end product to look like (and take along a photo of correct one) and they can typically sort it out in an hour or so with the right gear. Biggest risk is if they are not careful and snap a bar, but that's the risk you take. BTW, these are virtually impossible to reshape on your own even with the best of vices/mauls/heat. I've edited this to add a 1926 Chrysler showing the front bumper setup. Note the clamps to secure bracket to brackets coming off frame horns are more substantial then the "U" bolts on yours.
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I will add Studebaker to the 'just missed the list" section for now (I had forgotten them). As for Marque/Marquee, I originally typed in Marque and spellcheck told me to ad an "e". Will have to go to the source for advice,....yoohoo, Sister Holywater!
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joe-P said add "6. Did not prostitute itself by selling an SUV model." I could not agree more, although it would have dropped MB, BMW, VW, Ford, Porsche, perhaps others. Have never owned an SUV and I consider them conceptually a camel (a horse designed by committee). They are as a rule not sporty, have marginal utility (most you cannot get a sheet of plywood in), and their high riding 4WD nature make them expensive to build, maintain, fuel and since they are primarily for getting groceries, the companies load them with every bell and whistle possible. The original Land Rovers were a serious vehicle for rugged terrain touring, as were early Broncos, Toyota Land Cruisers, some Jeep products, and some other early vehicles of this genre. But they were not called SUV's, and were pretty utilitarian. My son just bought a 2022 Suburu Crosstrek 6 Speed manual, well made vehicle but the poshness of the inside suggests it is not intended for anything other than boulevard cruising. And an operators manual 1" thick.
Cadfan - The research delineated the significant ownership changes of all the marquees over their business history, even Ferrari. Over 100 years, I am sure every company (perhaps RR an exception) would have had a hiccup, quality control issue.
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John 348, your comment "All of the GM styling points you mentioned were just reflective of the times and economy in the US, and was very short lived." I think sums up very nicely the problem the big 3 had, they were fad chasers, and styling merchants, rather than being true quality car companies. Explains why they never established a signature vehicle, the Corvette being an exception (although I was never sure what it was supposed to be), first generation were pretty roadsters, next generation powered up styling exercises, later and up to now, not sure what to say, highly personalized playboy's car maybe. Other than NASCAR, not sure Chrysler or GM ever made a race car of consequence.
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I gather the vibe here is that they are going to play ball and get in a car ending in 'sex'. Good thing it's not a Playboy!
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John 348: My 2 toughest decisions were on excluding GM and including Bugatti and Aston Martin. Bugatti had so many iconic cars, but a long break with no cars, may even violate my 75 year rule. Re GM, while they dominated production in the NA market for 40 years, their product line was terribly bland IMHO (chrome, fins, big blocks in luxury yachts, and a few years of Muscle Cars (usually over-powered straight liners), one notable exception for me being the 1950's Corvettes (before they started to fatten them up) and the early 30's Cadillacs. Could never envisage paying $200K for a GM product.
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The Greatest Car Companies and their Icons
I’ve studied automotive history for many years, have had an interest in old cars since birth, and have yet to read an article on just what one person thinks are The Greatest Car Companies and their Icons. So I thought I’d take a shot at confessing my own ideals. The exercise would be easier perhaps if divided between pre-war (1890-1945) and Post-War (1945-2022), but like most old car fiends I never take the easy way. In arriving at a list, I decided “profitability” of the company/business and other aspects of a purely “business” nature would not be a factor as that would require substantial un-interesting (at least to me) research and analysis and debate (including the pre-war German Government’s role. (note some content is from various Wikipedia sources)
However any exercise needs a few governing parameters. Mine were:
1. Marque Company (in one form or another) had to have manufactured car for 75 years or more.
2. The Company brand objective has to have been solid and consistent throughout its history.
3. The cars have been universally recognized as a good-high standard for their sector or period.
4. At times, the Company would have produced Iconic cars or such Innovative cars as to affect the industry.
5. Some of the Marquee Cars will have generated a long term visceral positive reaction among knowledgeable car enthusiasts.
While many enthusiasts might quickly compile a top 20-30 Great Car Companies within these parameters, sorting them into a top down list of 12 will eventually show some bias. At end of piece I have included photos of the Iconic cars mentioned for the 12 makes. From my parameters, 3 companies have earned the top positions, Ferrari, Rolls Royce and Mercedes Benz (arguably could be in any order), and for different primary reasons.
1. Ferrari (1939-2022) has from its beginnings set the standard for high performance sports cars for road and track, and smoothly merged those standards into touring cars as well. Throughout its history, the company has been noted for its continued participation in racing, especially in Formula One, where it is the oldest and most successful racing team, holding the most constructors' championships (16) and having produced the highest number of drivers' championship wins (15). Ferrari road cars are generally seen as a symbol of speed, luxury and wealth. In June 2018, a 1963 250 GTO became the most expensive car in history, setting an all-time record selling price of $70 million. While the product goal and market has remained the same throughout its history, corporate ownership has changed over the years. They maintain a reputation as the most valued and collectible cars in the world.
2. Rolls Royce (1904-2022)/Bentley. While Ferrari aimed at the best in sports cars, Rolls-Royce (1904-2022) took aim at the highest of quality Luxury Touring Cars. Targeted initially at Royalty and successful businessmen, no dollar was spared in delivering a gold standard. Throughout its history, the tenets of high quality and luxury as set out in the stunning 1907 Silver Ghost , remained constant. For a 40 years period 1931-1971), they took control of the Bentley franchise, and its reputation for fast and quality sports and racing cars. While the RR luxury sedans are universally recognizable (with their huge tombstone radiators), the Bentleys were the favorite of the sporting class, and maintain a faithful and considerable following.
3. Mercedes Benz (1901-2022) If Ferrari and RR confined themselves to niche markets (performance and luxury touring), Mercedes Benz is considered a luxury car manufacturer who built high quality cars for all sectors of the marketplace. During their over 100 year history, icons like the 1930 SSKL and 1955 Gullwing share the stages with their great Grand Prix cars of the 30’s, their F1 cars of today, and luxury sedans popular with Presidents, Kings and Queens. Mercedes-Benz is the largest seller of premium vehicles in the world, selling 2 million passenger cars annually. The slogan for the brand is "the best or nothing".
The photos depict some of the Icons of these 3 marques and the remaining 9 marques. (note the Type 154 Mercedes GP of 1939 is misplaced last, should be with the other Mercedes photos. Perhaps an administrator can relocate it?)
Any list of The Greatest Car Companies has to recognize the roles they played in bringing this form of transportation to the masses. That as a major parameter leads to Ford, and Volkswagen.
4. Ford Motor Company (1903-2022) Henry Ford has been often credited with putting America on the roads, and accomplishing that by shrewd business decisions early in the Company history. Under the firm hand of Henry, the keys elements of assembly line productivity (design/engineering, supply, process, workforce retention and buy-in, marketing and simplicity) were combined to deliver a low priced but reliable everyman’s car, the ubiquitous Model T, of which some 15M were sold between 1908 and 1927. In later generations, while focusing on their main objective of serving the needs of the masses for basic transport, they delved into memorable and iconic niche markets with the 1955 Thunderbird, the 1965 Cobra and later the Ford GT40 which proved to be a Ferrari beater. Today Ford continues innovation in trucks, EVs and adjustments to the modern reality of building vehicles for the masses.
5. Volkswagen (1930-2022). Much like Ford 25 years earlier, the “Peoples Car or Volks Waggen” was the attempt by this German company to build a low priced high quality car for the masses. The innovative rear engine “beetle shaped” result became an iconic model which in one form or another continued in production for 60 years and 21M units, serving for many years as “the worlds car”. Even today variants in front wheel drive are sold throughout the word. While the VW “Beetle’ established the company’s reputation for quality control and sound engineering, they moved into other markets, including diesel engine cars, luxury cars and trucks.
The next 3 have proven long term records for high quality, design excellence and iconic models, BMW, Porsche and Jaguar
6. BMW (1928-2022) BMW Began its high profile in 1936 with the BMW 328 Roadster (fewer than 500) an almost instant favorite with the sporting crowd. The Company’s steadfast reputation for quality, technical advancement and taut, well handling touring cars for over 50 years has made them a favorite for many discerning drivers. In the modern touring sedan marketplace, many place them at the top.
7. Porsche (1939-2022) Perhaps no other Car company has survived longer on one basic concept car than Porsche. Starting in 1939 (and following Ferdinand Porsche’s key development work on the Volkswagen Beetle) , Porsche set out the basic design of the model he would manufacture independently, and initially based on the VW concept and parts. It would become an icon, eventually transitioning through the late 40’s/50’s 356 series and the later 911’s. The sleek, high quality, rear engined sports car, became a favorite of many generations and are highly prized today, regardless of year of manufacture.
8. Jaguar (1922-2022) With the Swallow of 1922 and SS100 of the mid 1930’s (both under the Swallow Company), Jaguar began making a name in the British industry in 1945 when Swallow became Jaguar by building high quality and well mannered cars. It moved into the sports car field with the early 50’s XK 120/140/150 series which led to great success in racing, and Jaguar used their growing popularity to deliver to the marketplace the iconic Jaguar XKE in 1961-1975, considered by many enthusiasts as one of the most beautiful mass produced car designs ever. Through this period, their sedate but refined sedans remained popular.
Rounding out my list of 12 are Bugatti, Aston Martin, Audi and Alfa Romeo.
9. Bugatti (1909-2022) Going back to 1913 with the Type 13, and through the type 35, (and its descendants very successful in European racing circuits) the monumental Type 41 Bugatti Royale and many sport/touring series culminating in the Type 57 (and its variants), the horseshoe shaped radiator on the stunning cars is etched in the minds of all enthusiasts. Ettore Bugatti and later his son Jean designed some stunning cars, combining the fields of art and engineering to an impeccable standard. While the company and its name disappeared for a number of years, its recent iteration carries on the attention to design and engineering the elder Bugatti established for the Marquee.
10. Aston Martin (1913-2022) Beginning with the Aston Martin Ulster in 1932, this small company quickly established a reputation for sports car performance. Following the introduction of the David Brown (DB) family in 1947, the early 50’s DB 3/4/5 series became a serious competitor on the race track. The Aston Martin DB5 of James bond 007 fame has placed the marquee in the world’s limelight for 60 years. Although the marquee has survived in production for over 100 years, ownership has changed hands many times.
11. Audi (1932-2022) For many enthusiasts, the nearly incomparable Audi C-3 and D-3 of the late 30’s European grand prix’s (the first rear wheel drive GP car) introduced them to the brand. The Company began with a merger of smaller companies including DKW, NSU and Horch, thus the Auto Union tag, later to become AUDI. Their product line focused primarily on sedate high quality sedans through most of their history, and they established a history of designing and equipping them as great rally and touring cars. The Audi Quattro was one of the first serious 4WD cars.
12. Alfa Romeo (1910-2022) In the 1930’s Alfa began to compete seriously with the major European marquees, building and racing small light and well engineered sports/touring cars. Enzo Ferrari was the first A/R guy to lead their racing team, in 1929, establishing Scuderia Ferrari, before going independent in 1939. Eventually they could not compete with the government sponsored cars from Mercedes and Audi, and went on to become a predominant producer of well mannered sports cars up to present.
Only so much room in a list of 12 so some companies who produced Icons or prolifically, such as Packard, Hudson, studebaker, Maserati, Lamborghini, Honda, Toyota, and Volvo, Citroen, Renault, Peugeot didn’t make my list. Other highly praised marquees who produced some stunning or high quality cars also did not qualify based on their short histories or very limited production numbers, like Auburn, Cord, Duesenberg, Pierce Arrow, Maybach, Horch, Delage, Talbot-Lago, Isotto- Fraschini, and Hispana Suiza. Finally, some companies were huge business successes and produced lots of “ordinary cars” but nothing generally considered high quality, desirable and iconic, like GM, Chrysler, Fiat, British Leyland, and I’m sure there are others. Have I missed an obvious one? Bruised someone's ego? Lots of time to edit this and make it a “baker’s dozen”! I may very well do that based on feedback from the experts, and fellow critics!
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Seems to me you would like to see this special collectible of your Dad's go to someone who will not only highly appreciate it, but keep it in a special place and ensure it's history is shared with like minded people. So Terry Bond may be just that guy, sounds like no risk of him flipping it.
Reminds me of a friend who has a series of very nice mid-20's Star automobiles. He became friends with an old gent in Florida while spending the winters there. The old gent had a lovely Star Roadster he had owned for years, which my friend helped him keep roadworthy. One spring as my friend closed up for the trip back home, the old gent came by and told him he wanted him to have the Star, he wanted someone who could take good care of it. After initially resisting the free offer, the old gent convinced him it was the only wish he had. So my friend went home, travelled back to Florida with a trailer and brought it back. I'm sure the old gent is tickled pink. Value in some cases is much more than monetary.
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I'm chuckling, all the eloquence in the recent topic on Pronunciation Quiz has perked the ears/eyes of the grammar police. I do flinch at grammar mistakes, but usually give way. Saw (or is it seen?) several in topic headings this past month, most common is to/too, their/there/ they're, were/where, etc. Not to mention clear typing errors not checked (mechanics seem to have fat fingers!). Occasionally I will PM the poster to allow the opportunity for correction without it becoming a part of the topic, which is my recommended course of correction. An alternative is to get out Sister Holywater's strap. Always nice to see photos like these witnessing that there are still many old cars sitting ready to be reclaimed by Mother Nature or Father Time (are caps suitable here?).
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Enjoying this rather entertaining and light hearted look at language and how it gets used/abused over time. I am not only interested in old cars, but history and genealogy as well. Re REO/Reo we are all familiar with BUICK/Buick, FORD/Ford badging, the use or non-use of CAPS is entirely user choice.
Enuf of cars, or should I say Industrial Arts!! Back to English. I understand cursive writing is going the way of the Dodo bird. Such a shame in my view. In some family history research 10 yrs ago, I came across a list of Baptist Church Members from 1876 the first year my Church was built. I lived in a very small community called Homeville, which while it sounded generic, I later learned was likely named after my GGGGGrandfather Stetson Holmes (a prominent businessman/selectman born in Pembroke Mass. in 1753) and his family, who arrived in Nova Scotia (as British Empire Loyalists) around 1795 and were given a 1000 land acre grant (covering most of the community). The Cursive writing in this page from the list is exceptional by today's measures, indeed I don't know anyone who could routinely write this well. The "scribe" was a GGrandson of Stetson, William Holmes Jr., and note many Holmes members in the Church.
Like GregLar, and Wayne S, and some others on here, while we love old cars, it is not our only passion.
Now back to Manual Training/Industrial Arts or what ever they call it today!
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For laughs, in Brazil (Portugese) it is pronounced Wheelies! That should make the JEEP fans smile. JMHO, but many families pronounced and spelled their surname differently than original. A quick look at historical English surnames found Willy and Willis, but no Willys. So at some point, the original surname was likely modified. Could have been as simple as adding an S to Willy indicating some thing like the Willy's family from Connecticut, or the Willys living in the next county. Or someone (census people) mis-spelled Willis by replacing an i with an y. But I agree, if Mr. John Willys was proud to say Wil-lis, so be it.
Acronyms are everywhere, BMW (Bavarian Motor Works), RCA, IBM, etc, and usually are spelled as their letters because there is no obvious short cut. But when the acronym can have a more pleasant or practical pronunciation it becomes the common pronunciation very quickly, the most obvious one of late being NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization).
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Ree-oh and Wil-leze. General English rule is words ending with YS are pronounced EZE. Now of course you will recognize the discrepancies often occurring between "Proper English" usage, and "Americanized English". Words like Colour/Color, Labour/Labor, Favourable/ Favorable are examples, and it would not be unusual to start pronouncing YS as IS. If you like Wil-liss, then it should be spelled Willis. As for REO, (Ransom Eli Olds great comeback) imagine if you decided A-U-D-I was correct way to pronounce AUDI. Too early Saturday morning for class, I'm off to do the NYT Sunday Crossword from last week.
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A good friend fully restored his own Chevy starting with a car found in a farmers field 35 years ago, took him about 15 years. He did his own body work and paint. Car is perfect, runs like a top, and note the front bumper guard appears same as yours, he told me a while back it was an authentic period accessory, he picked up in Mexico. He is getting up there and listed this for sale 2 years ago for $25K Canadian (about $20K USD).
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I'd be guessing something like this 1938 Dodge, top tends to taper towards rear causing the illusion you likely see in old photo. Many MOPARS and other makes in this era had very similar look, so pinning it down might be unrealistic based on the fuzzy photo.
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Brakes may be seized, can sometimes be freed up by pulling the car, or jacking one wheel at a time and doing some work on them, but sometimes a real challenge to free up. This can be checked by trying to move the car forward or backward with tires pumped up and transmission in neutral. If those are free, really nothing else to worry about, these cars have very heavy sheet metal, so you can push just about anywhere. If brakes are seized and it needs to be "dragged" onto a flat bed, not a big deal, just hard on the tires! They probably need replacing anyway!
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I don't think you could go wrong at that price (likely marketable at twice the price), as long as you understand you are buying a 40 yr old car. From what I see, and based on your note that it runs normal/fine, I would buy it and take it to a good reliable shop for a full checkup. They can give you an honest assessment of it mechanically (or you could do this before a purchase)(brakes, tires, exhaust, suspension, fluids, leaks, rust, timing belt, etc), typically takes about 1 hour of their time and you know what it will cost to have it a reliable "driver". Then you know how reliable it will be and what little things need to be kept an eye on. Were it me, I'd drive it just the way it looks (as a survivor car) for a couple of years, cars last better if they are driven regularly. Then if it serves you well, you still enjoy it, then you can contemplate getting it refreshed (paint etc). At any point, you should be able to get your investment back, and have not had too much disappointment. I had a 300ZX for 15 years, great car, very high quality car, and that helps keep these cars popular.
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So much for ASAP! Tried to send a PM, nothing!
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Is your car similar to this one, 1923 Buick type 54? The rearmost bow it appears should land in saddle close to anchor bolt, subsequent bows remain above the mentioned bolt. None of the bows should land on rear deck. I note this car has deck cleats, does yours need then? Check for old holes in rear deck from underside. Over time the curvature of some old bows might distort, narrowing (or widening) them at sharp curves, causing imperfect fit.
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Additional superb photos from the same 1912 Olds Defender sold at auction a while back. Restoration appears outstanding. Intake manifold shape appears to be only significant difference from OP where the carb is higher by a few inches. Note Oldsmobile Defender cast in blocks, suggesting this is different engine (perhaps smaller) than other Olds in 1912. Also OP appears to have a magneto? I've also posted a 1911 Olds Autocrat/Special motor. Looks closer to the OP.
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While it is a bitza (mix of Triumph and aftermarket), looks like it was built carefully from a good kit, will be a fun car to own and enjoy. i owned 1970 Triumph TR6 from new (straight 6), would love to still have it. Is this car a 6cyl or a 4cyl.
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Neither is 1931 Chevrolet.
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If same as the 1931 Chrysler CD8's it was a blue/grey like this. When I restored mine, I removed the cover off the transmission tunnel and the top cover of the transmission (that had been protected by a thick insulating pad) was in perfect condition, all original paint. I took it to a paint store and they made a perfect match. They could not color match "engine enamel" so I first sprayed the engine with black engine enamel, followed by the proper color in the "color matched' automobile paint. There is a supplier in the USA who sells many colors of "engine paint", but we cannot import it to Canada.
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Citroen appears to be about 1924 Town Coupe, high cab, suicide doors etc, and based on rad shape and eyebrows on front fenders. So K31 is on mark, likely mid 20's DB.
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Jim Taylor's Collection Being Sold
in General Discussion
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Steve M got on here ahead of me saying "Wow, I continue not to understand the willingness to criticize someone who have been successful in life and can own whatever he or she wants. Jim Taylor had a right to curate his collection and enjoy it as he sees fit......" I agree 100%, if I was Mr.Taylor I'd be royally pissed that someone posted the link to the auction on here and the junkyard dogs came ripping out of their scrap yards yapping and snarling. What's with it guys. Sometimes inconsiderate and unsolicited opinions hurt people! Mr Taylor never asked for any opinion. STAY (or should I say SIT)!