1910Hupp
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Posts posted by 1910Hupp
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It lives!!! I have slowly assembled the engine and ancillaries back together . I finished last night and for a couple of hours contemplated starting it
Made all sorts of excuses why I should delay it until the light of day -basically I was scared it wouldn't start and I would go to bed dissappointed but in the end I flipped it over . Two flips and it was running - so quiet and so smooth compared with previously. No fluid leaks . I ran it for 5 minutes then dumped all the fluids and refreshed them all . Other than a minor inlet manifold leak and that the timing also might need a little adjustment as it sounds a little retarded everything great in my household !! -Thanks for all the help Karl
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I agree David - I started bidding on it and would have gone to $500 then I fiqured I already had one and there was a lovely 1910 picnic set which I wanted more so I started bidding on that -only to miss out by $50 -Karl
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Max and I think Edgar (my two favorite Aussies) Have suggested that the engine petcocks should be 5/8 inch high.
Here are a photo of mine . They are obvioulsy way to high with a height of 1 1/2 inches from the base of the thread . Before I cut them can I confirm 5/8 from the top of the thread or the base of the thread ??
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David Thanks The frame wasn't supported enough and the brake rods where still connected
I was trying to line the gearbox mounting , U-Joint and gearbox linkages all at once in three dimensions and all round the drive shaft (itself under tension from the rear spring) -I actually worked all this out this at 1 am this morning - I'm sure will go together when I do as you suggested. Karl
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Well the engine is back and looks really good Today I bit the bullet and decided to reinstall it -What a nightmare
Its taken me 7 hours and I'm no further ahead than I was this morning -My Problem is lining it all up . Lining up the U joint is difficult but do able but when I do this I can't seem to get the engine to move back far enough. The engine mounts won't line up with the mounting points on the cross members Specifically it is about 1/2 inch to far forward when the U Joint is fully engaged . ie the rear cross member has the bottom of the gear box sitting on it rather than rear engine mount area .
I suspect its got some thing to do with the drive shaft as when we removed the engine the drive shaft sprung upwards rather than falling down as I expected it to. When the U joint engages I can't push the torque tube down as it is connnected to the gearbox and that is sitting on the cross member . The gearbox won't drop down until it moves further back which it won't do .If I push the torque tube down and block it where I think it should be I can't line up the U Joint properly . Ugh Some advice would be sure appreciated Karl
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Well I have the engine and gearbox back and they look great. When I re install it how do I get the male part of the U joint to slide in to the back of the gearbox I presumbe I need to hold it up somehow but not much room to do this . Help! Karl
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I run an original Breeze on my car and find it works fine. You have to fiddle with it a bit when starting and adjusting for running, but isn't that part of the fun?
I don't believe they were NBG, as the car sold at a record pace for the time, and the company stayed in business well past many competitors!
Are some later carbs better? Well, sure, but again, if you want to experience what early motorists experienced, keep it original and learn how things worked when they weren't easy or convenient.
Crap, sorry, I'll get off the soap box, it seems to stand in my way on a lot of posts....
Whatever carb, drive and have fun...
David Don't worry about your soap box I agree with you regards originality. I located my Breeze (and the appropriate manifold) with great difficulty and no small expense and once I've worked it over I will install it. The reasons I have not tackled it yet is my preliminary inspection suggests it might be pretty worn out and it might be cheaper for me to start with a better core . All my other cars are original down to original tool kits and owners manuals However it remains a fact that the number of early Hupmobiles out there (and as you point out there are lots because they sold well) vastly exceeds the number of Breeze Carbs in circulation which suggests that previous owners have removed and discarded them for some reason. Conversely most early Model Ts (including my 1913) are running original carbs. I suspect the reason is not so much to do with performance but servicability of the carb. As far as I can work out Breeze disappeared some time in the teens making it hard to get parts to service their carbs . With the Model T you have always been able to get carb parts right up to now 100+ years later -Karl
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My car is fitted with a Model T carb (Holley NH) which seems to work fine . I have the correct carb and manifold in storage but will need to restore the carb prior to use . The previous owner of my car told me that Breeze carbs are rare because they were NBG ( No Bloody Good) and got changed to something that worked better fairly rapidly. None the less I do know of a few owners who use the Breeze and really like it. Karl
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Hi Andrew Nice to have another ANZAC on board . The Fuel cap is available from CARS and maybe the hub caps . I suspect you will need to make the rest but not that complicated to do. You would be wise to contact Edgar Bowen who lives in Queensland and seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of Model 20s . He can be contacted via the post he made to my recent thread on my Hupps engine problems -I hope yours has been restored better than mine was!!
Surprisingly a large number of early Hupps have survived down under. I know that in 1910 200 were imported into New Zealand alone . My Great Grandfather even had one (unfortunately I don't believe it's my one).
All the best mate - Karl
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Thanks Edgar I have forwarded this very helpful information to the Engine rebuilder
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Camshaft housing cracks have has been welded in the past Also some cracks in the crankcase which have been dealt to
as well . All welds look like they have been done well although the camshaft housing ones are a little porous and probably more so now we have skimmed the housing . Will coat the inside with Araldite prior to reassembly to seal it up. The delay at the moment is the camshaft. I actually have a spare but its not in the greatest condition and I suspect is probably just as brittle as the original so safer to make a new one. The cam has been formed and sent away for stress relieving then it comes back to be ground then sent away again for nitriding. The quote for the cam was NZ$300-400 which currently equates to about US$ 260-340 which sounds pretty cheap for a camshaft. Apart from some new rod and bearing cap bolts thats all the parts we have used So the bulk of the cost will be labour (about US$ 50-60 an hour) . I have great faith in the engine reconditioner having ridden in a 1910 Stoddart Dayton the engine and drive train of which was completely rebuild by this shop. They even went as far as making patterns and casting up cylinder blocks for it -It runs like a swiss watch ( or an Austin (Bantam) Seven on steriods as one of my friends describes it) !
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Yes, that's a mess! .....a good time to look through the engine and transmission, if this wear is there then I'd bet you'll find another problem or two......
How True David -So Far we have found Camshaft installed in bearings at an angle , Camshaft gear flogged out , Camshaft bent 40 thou (and subsequently broke in two when we tried to straightened it as so brittle). Camshaft cover plate and engine face both not true Grub screw fragement stuck in and partially blockiing a bearing oiler hole Several bearing bolt nuts stripped (and just finger tight on one) and those that weren't stripped had been mushroomed through overtightening. The engine reconditioner thought that we probably had less than 200 miles before one let go with devestating results . Much as I might begrudge the cost of strip down and rebuild ( not to mention the new cam shaft) it is going to work out a lot cheaper doing it now than later ! Karl
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Ah yes David but today we have also found the camshaft has a 40 thou bend in it and the camshaft /Tappet carrier mounting plate has a warped face on it. You combine all these factors and we might be quite a way out of where we should be . Or you could go the Enrico Fermi (Manhattan Project Atomic Bomb Scientist) way . He had a theory that multiple small flucuations from the norm tend to cancel each other out and can be ignored in an equation . He was famous for calculating the force of the Trinity explosion (accurately as it turned out) by ripping up a page of his notebook and seeing how far the blast wave blew the scraps of paper. But I digress - Any way its put paid to my idea of using a plaster mould to hold the camshaft in its current positon when we pour the babbit . Karl
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As per the previous thread we have stripped the motor down and find now that one reason for the assymetric wear in the cam gear is that on the prevous owners rebuild the camshaft was not babitted parallel to the case meaning the cam gear was not at right agles to the crank gear which has probably contributed to the problem. I need some help from the experts Edgar, David ,Ken or anyone else regards the best way to set up the camshaft when we rebabbit it -Karl
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Progress to date - The engine is out which was something of an anticlimax it probably took less than 2 hours form begnning to end to remove it. My son helped me and we went nice and slowly taking lots of notes and photos.
The engine has been disassembled and I have attached some photos . As expected the camshaft gear has been rocking back and forth on the key in the camshaft and we will need to replace this. My understanding is that the camshaft is set up and then babbit
is poured round it. We thought we
would prepare a plaster cast of the clearances as it sits currently and use this to ensure correct placement when we repour the babbit - Unless any one else has a more elegant way to set it up ???There is some wear on the front surface of the sliding gear in the gearbox but is trivial. Otherwise things look pretty good . The valves all look good The bearings are excellent We have crack tested the crank and it is fine . Interestingly enough we placed a model T crank on top of the crank shaft and they are almost identical The engine reconditioner is convinced if needed a model T crank could be machined to fit Karl
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The engine and transmision was rebuilt 2000 miles ago by the previous owner at huge expense (I have the receipts) Since I have had it its always had a rattle in the back of the motor which I (and every one else who had listened ) had just assumed was transmission. I now suspect it was movement of the camshaft gear on the camshaft. I'm actually quite looking forward to pulling the engine and having a look round -I use the car a lot and it will be reassuring for me to know that every thing has been done right . Gearbox has always shifted nicely and clutch has always worked as well as any 1910 clutch with minimal if any drop in revs with engagement so I'm hopeful that these components will need nothing done to them. Already as I take things off for removal I have discovered that the upstands on the crankcase petcocks are at least 1 inch which Max has suggested is 3/8 to long and may explain the oil leakage I get
In the meantime the Model T will furfill my veteran motoring over the remainder of our summer
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Here are the pictures of the cam gear It has been rocking back and forth and has wallowed out
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Thanks David I have a matching set of cam and crank gears so fiqured would be best to replace both . As you say would also give me the opportunity to inspect the transmision bearings and internals of the engine as well. I think I will pull the engine and gear box together - Am I correct in assuming that the U joint just pulls out of the back of the gearbox ie is not held in by anything other than press fit? -Karl
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Today I took the Hupp for a run and it was going really well then it missed .I lost all power and then it stopped and I coasted to the side of the road . Following that it would fire once but not catch on and run . I've had problems with the magneto cutting out and it has been rebuilt twice already -as I had compression and fuel i figured thart it was the magneto especially because the spark I had seemed weak!
My son towed me home and I pulled the magneto to find that the cam gear is all chewed up and I suspect the magneto drive is losing drive hence the failure. Regardless of the magneto condition I can't put the magneto back without replacing the cam drive . I have a matching set of gears for the crank and cam which I will need to install . My understanding is that I will have to remove the engine to do this and also remove and rebabbit the camshaft . I've never removed the engine before and would appreciate some advice . Is it easier to remove the engine with or without the transmission. I I could I would prefer to leave the transmission in place if i can . Any advice gratefully received
I taken some photos but have to resisze them before I can post them
Thanks Karl
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They turn up frequently on Ebay I've brought two reasonably complete ones in the last 12 months to allow refurbishment of my gauges -Karl
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Yep great cars just put the magneto back in mine today -Been a bit of a saga over the last few months and don't think it is over yet although the car is running great when I put the magneto back in I noted a lot of wear on the cam gear and even a broken tooth with about 40% loss on one tooth. I have a new cam and crank gear but am not looking forward to the strip down to install them. Karl
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It should have a fixed timing magneto on it, Bosch DU-4, which works fine, don't let anyone talk you into changing to a variable timing model.
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David I think you are a little late as I supsect the brass rod /bell crank is an advance and retard lever.
I have fitted mine with advance and retard and it transforms the car. The previous owner had advance and retard on it but took it off as he didn't notice an improvement . That was probably due to a magneto that needed rebuilding . The only issue I have at the moment is devising a bell crank system to reduce the sensativity of my lever ie give me more travel at the lever and less at the magneto -Karl
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I have finally suceeded in replacing the Bosch DU4 Fixed magneto with a variable timing one . I have spent the last few weeks experimenting with start and run settings . This has been complicated because the engine is very sensative to small movements of the ignition setting lever I probably need to devise some sort of bell crank system to allow more movement of the lever to less movement at the magneto . However I discovered a very effective way of sorting optimal settings out today. I had morning tea with my local mechanic who suggested we just put a timing light on the car . We used a spare 12v battery as a power source , Marked TDC with white paint on the flywheel and clipped on to Lead One as normal . It was amazing and worked perfectly. Using the normal marks on the cylinder block face I now know exactly what position of the lever corresponds to the orginal mag setting (which not surprisingly allows the car to start and run well) and I can also see that there is still plenty of advance from this position to allow me to experiment with if I wish. Karl
Bad Day for the Model 20
in Hupmobile
Posted
Engine now running nicely attached is a link to a video I took this morning of the car running