No Start Situation

[Chacheska]

I have a 1932 V12 Cadillac that has been sitting for about 7 years. During that time I have lubed the cylinders every year or so by squirting Marvel Mystery Oil in the plug holes, letting it sit for a week and then cranking the engine over a few times without the plugs in to keep the rings from sticking. This car ran from 1995 until about 7 years ago. I tried starting it the other day. It cranks but wont fire. I checked the spark at each coil. Both seem fine but one is weaker than the other. The plugs in the left bank were fouled by the Marvel Mystery Oil so I wiped them off and used emery cloth to clean the contacts. I also used the emery on the points, all the brass contacts on the underside of the cap and the tip of the rotor. Still cranks but doesn't fire. I then tried ether sprayed in both carbs. Still no fire. I was sure that would do it. One bank of cylinders has compression that averages in the 50's and the other bank averages in the 60's. Low but it always fired in the past. A knowledgeable friend suggested using a 12 volt battery to try to fire it. I don't know what that would do to any of the ignition parts, like the points, condensers or coils. He said a 12 volt battery wouldn't hurt anything during short turn use just to start the car. He also suggested that some of the valves may be stuck open but since I cranked it over occassionaly over the years I didn't think that would be the problem. I also filled both carb bowls with fuel as well as the fuel pump bowl to make sure the carbs had fuel but none of that helped. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

Have you checked the points and condenser? I've had problems with them on cars that have been sitting for a long time. The actual contacts either became pitted, maybe from having the ignition on with them "almost" closed, or possibly from corrosion. More likely, the condenser has given out and the points are now very pitted. The condenser is there to prevent excessive arcing, and if it goes bad, your points will arc weld themselves together. It is worth a quick look.

[Chacheska]

Thanks for the reply, Chuck. As I mentioned, I took emery cloth and cleaned the points. Would that not be sufficient? Is there a way to check the condensers with a multimeter/volt meter? Never had to change points in the old V12 so that would be a little challenging for me. The condensers would be the easier way to start a process of elimination. Is there a voltage output test I can do to check the coils?

Karl

[JLee]

If you have a weak spark at the coil, the condensers are probably working. The usual test of a condenser is to replace it. Chuck is probably on the right track with the points, even if you ran some emery cloth through them. With the Distributor cap off, crank the engine with the ignition on and watch the points. You might need a mirror to see into the distributor. Each set of points should have a strong regular spark as they open. If they do not, try cleaning them with a piece of good quality sand paper rather than emery cloth. The emery cloth can leave bits of the abrasive in the points and foul them. Use a fairly fine grit like 180 or 220. Because the car has been sitting for some time, it will take more than a swipe or two to clean off any corrosion build-up. If the sandpaper comes out with a gouge or a scratch that indicates pitted points, as the opposite side of the pit will have a buildup of material cutting into the paper. You can file down the built-up part, but it's hard to do in the distributor. Make sure you check the gap. If the points don't open far enough the spark will be weak.

You can use the 12 volt battery providing you don't crank it too long. The biggest hazzard is overheating the starter and melting solder. The 12 volts won't hurt the points and the coils will handle the extra voltage for a short period. Don't try any lights with the 12 volt battery connected. If the starter is in good condition, and the primary ignition is working, the 6 volt system will start it.

On a cold engine that has not been run for some time, the 50 - 60 lb compression is adequate.

Good luck.

Jon Lee

[Chacheska]

Thanks for the reply and good advice, Jon. Last night I tried 'jumping' it with a 12 volt battery from a small car. The car wasn't running. I hooked up the batteries the way I thought they should connect ....... negative post from the 12 volt to the positive post of the 6 volt positive ground battery. My friend manned the cables while I cranked it. It cranked at normal speed but didn't start. When my friend took off the positive cable off the 6 volt it sparked pretty hard. A friend of mine old me today that I should have ran positive to positive and negative to negative despite the fact the grounds are different. That doesn't make sense to me but considering the big spark I suppose he was right. Now I'm hoping I didn't fry anything. Shouldn't the cables be reversed when jumping since the grounding is reversed? Anyway, I'll try your suggestions tomorrow. Another suggestion was to check spark at the plug gaps by removing the plugs and cranking it. Thanks again, Jon.

Karl

[Johan Boltendal]

Check your spark at the plugs, if it is there, change the no doubt fouled 12 plugs, the Marvel oil will have destroyed these any way after 7 years of cranking only. If there is no spark at the plugs and there is one at each coil, you have a distributor cap/wire or rotor failure.Allow me to remark you are tacklimg this the wrong way around.

Do not use the ether again it could blow your engine and harm you quite seriously.The same goes for the 12V battery it could ruin your wiring, your gauges and a lot more, bulbs is of the leat interest in this sequence, there is no need for it too, it's like entering you house with a sledge hammer instead of a key.

If you try to restart an engine after so many years, you should better follow the rules, clean the carburators and the tank,fill the tank with new petrol,clean and check the Autovac system,set your points gap, check the ignition and related wiring, replace the engine oil and coolant fluid, take a well loaded 6V battery and it will run,starting at 7 or 8 cylinders and if you are lucky run at all 12 after some time.Let us know when it's running and how you achieved this. Johan

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

When jumping batteries, you always connect positive to positive and negative to negative. If you reverse the polarity, you run the risk of seriously injuring yourself. When reversed, you are using the lower voltage battery to short circuit the higher voltage battery. That's not good. It could cause the electrolyte to boil and spray all over you and everything around you. If enough hydrogen is released in the process, it could even start a fire or explode. Obviously, that's not good.

Even jumping a 6-volt battery from a 12-volt counterpart is a risky proposition. Usually, it will work OK if done intermittently, but it should never be left connected for any length of time.

If one car is positive ground, and the other is negative ground you still connect positive to positive and negative to negative, as marked on the battery. You must be very careful that nothing metal from one car touches the other. (Like the door- you could arc weld one car to the other if you aren't careful).

As for your problem, I'd put all new plugs in the car, replace the condensers, and check the points for both gap and pitting. Is the gas fresh? A lot of today's gasoline looses its volatility in just a few months. It still looks like gasoline, but it burns about as well as diesel fuel. It can certainly make for some hard starting.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

As for checking the condenser, the best bet is to replace them like Jon said. You can use an analog type volt ohmmeter to give a quick, but not definitive check. You need the kind with an old fashioned meter, not a digital readout. Put the meter in the Ohms X 1 scale. Short the two leads together and zero the meter so the meter says zero ohms. Disconnect the condenser, and touch the meter leads to the contacts (usually the case and the single wire or terminal. The meter should deflect towards the "zero? mark and then fall back towards infinity. Assuming it does that, reverse the leads, to check the same thing with the opposite polarity. Once again, the needle should rise toward the "Zero Ohms" mark and fall off. If it does this, the condenser is probably OK. If it stays at or near the "0" position on the meter, it is shorted and should be discarded. If nothing happens - the needle doesn't swing at all - then it is open and needs to be replaced.

A shorted condenser will keep the car from starting. An open condenser will make your points pit very rapidly and also produce a weak spark. The pitted points may also keep your car from starting. You can get universal condensers at most auto parts stores for less than two dollars. They won't look right but they will work OK.

[JLee]

Karl, in my opinion you have had some good advice from both Chuck and Johan. We will all be waitng the outcome.

Jon Lee

[Chacheska]

Jon, Chuck and Johan ...... thanks VERY much for taking the time to try to help me. I tried getting on the forum a few days ago but couldn't access it for some reason. Wouldn't load. This is what I did without the benefit of reading all your advice. A modern day mechhanic friend of mine went with me to try to start it. I put in 12 new plugs and cranked it. Nothing. I decided to do a compression check. Cylinder #1 was 75lbs. #3 was 0!! I could feel the sweat beading on my back. I re-threaded the tester and tried it again. 0 again. One more time and 0 again. My heart sank. I figured a bent push rod. The other cylinders on the left side were all in the low 70's. The left side has always been the stronger side. The right has always been a little weak so I tried #2 which was 55 lbs. #4 was also 55 lbs. #6 was 30 lbs! Squirted oil into in and still 30 lbs. Valve problem. Nos 8 & 10 were in the mid 60's and #12 was 40 lbs. Oil squirting resulted in a reading of 53 lbs. Ring problem. My mechanic friend grabbed the ether and told me to crank it while he sprayed it into the left carb. The engine coughed for the first time. He sprayed it again and it fired. Boy, it ran pretty rough! We chocked it for a good 10 minutes until it ran more smoothly. I was under the impression ether was only harmful if you used it a lot. After running the car for 30 minutes I shut 'er down and did another compression check. Cylinder #3 was now 75 lbs!! Needless to say I was thrilled. Stuck valve. Nos 6 and 12 were still at 30 and 40. 7 years ago those two were in the mid to upper 40's so they worsened, especially #6. Cyl #9 dropped from 70 to 55 lbs when hot. One other cylinder dropped 10 lbs. I'm confused by that. I thought hot engines had higher comperession. Two days later I started it again. It took a few minutes of cranking but it started on it's own. During the initial startup the temp gauge was in the 11:30 position and held steady for the entire half an hour but it idled very low. I adjusted the T handles under the carbs which affects fuel to the carbs and turned each throttle screw 3 full turns to increase idle. Those things made the car run better but the temp gauge increased to just past the 12:00 position. The left exhaust (stronger compression side) was smoking a little, had some popping but felt relatively cool coming out the pipe. The weaker right side had no smoke, no popping but was hot coming out the pipe. I'm assuming the left side T handle needs to be adjusted to let in less fuel for a leaner mixture and vice versa for the right, yes? Now that I read some of the other suggestions I will do more tests. Sorry this was so long but I wanted to let you know what happened. Feel free to give me more advice based on the new info. Thanks, gentlemen!

Karl

[Chacheska]

One more point I want to make regarding cranking the engine with Marvel in it. I ALWAYS let the Marvel soak in for at least a week before cranking the engine over and ALWAYS crank the engine over on and off for a good couple of minutes with the spark plugs removed so as not to foul them. Then I wait another week or so before trying to fire it with the plugs in. The insulators on the left (strong) side were fouled a bit while the right (weak) side looked relatively clean. Not too surprising considering the valves and/or rings on the right allowed more Marvel to get past them.

Karl

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

I'm happy to hear that you got it running. After you get the carburetors more or less balanced, it sounds to me like you need to drive the car! Frequently, regular use is the best cure of all.

I should talk. I've got a couple of cars that I haven't driven in well over a year, so I understand where you are coming from. I suspect I'll have some of the same "fun" you've been having. Maybe I need fewer cars. (NAH!)

[R W Burgess]

Two stars denotes a very interesting story. I would also say that the polarity issue with the battery cable jump should be a lesson learned. Battery jumping should ALWAYS be positive to positive, negative to negative.

A great thread. Thanks!

Wayne

[Chacheska]

I wish this story had a happy ending but after sitting for just 3 days the beast won't start again. I think I'm going to begin by taking the carbs apart and cleaning them. Can't hurt. If it won't start after that I'll start with the electrical system. You're absolutley right, Chuck. You can't let these cars sit around without starting them for long periods of time. Better get going on yours before you suffer my fate!

Karl