Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 RO: what kind of oil pressure readings did u have PRIOR to the rebuilt pump??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 RO: U DID put a gasket between the engine and pump flange i hope?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Keith, NOW you think of it! (lol)YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 RB. i'm always thinking of something after the fact. During my second bout with the oil pump problems 2 years ago i forgot to put the idler gear in the pump. Having assembled and diassembled that pump so many times fitting and re-fitting the bushings and so-forth i just forgot it on final assembly. When i sat down for a rest at the bench and make a quick phone call i looked over and saw the idler gear setting there glistening in the light. Off came the pan and the pump ( for about the 8th time that month) and the gear installed. When you young guys start pushing 50 years old you'll understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Us YOUNG guys?? Thanks for the kind words - Jack Harlin and I appreciate them!I'm glad I posted a Packard medallion instead of a self-portrait.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 26, 2003 Author Share Posted July 26, 2003 No gasket existed between the pump flange and the engine on either this car or the parts car; however, I did put down a pretty good layer of the red high temperature gasket sealer like I used on the oil pan gasket, just a thicker layer of it on the flange. Indeed, I am having difficulty understanding the problems with this gauge. In the past I have had vaccuum gauges, fuel pressure gauges, oil temperature gauges, transmission temperature gauges, tranny fluid level indicators, and a few others, many with the compression fittings setup and have never had a problem getting a gauge to read as expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 26, 2003 Author Share Posted July 26, 2003 Keith, the pump that came off the car had readings up to 55 psi, but this dissipated rapidly down to just a few psi. This pump is from the parts car. My T/L is strictly manual. There is a two-way switch from the dash directly to the F and A terminals and each lead protected by a 20 amp fuse. The motor was obviuosly just stuck has afew taps on the housing with a hammer got it running. Guess I will exercise ever so often to try and keep it in good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 RO: i would advise AGAINST using any self curing sealers on the oil pump mounting flange. There IS supposed to be a gasket there. It is quite possible that the oil pressure may forced the sealer out. Both of my Exec's had a gasket between the engine and the pump. Altho the SERVICE ,manual says nothing about a gasket, the PARTS catalouge DOES. see plate 29 exploded view of engine and p83 of section 5 in the parts catalouge part number 5.04032 for the gasket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 Check for a poor ground on the TL motor. If it has a good ground then its probably the brushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Little gasket, yep, I see that now in the parts book....oh well! The red high temperature "gasket maker" had well over 24 hours to set up well as we struggled with the oil pan front bolts and the piston exhaust tube bracket under the car of which one side got trapped between the the flywheel cover and the the engine side. I think the eaisest way to do this farcical fiasco job would be with one of those auto rotater jobs where you rotate the car 90 degrees fro access. That way you could even sit down for some portions of the job and not have to be straining looking up while lying down in cramped quarters. After blowing 1/2 quart out the engine block sender unit hole last night and reinstalling new fittings, today upon firing up three times, it appears to be behaving. We'll have to check it out on a road test next week. Got the tailpipe piece back together so it runs quiet now, and the engine sounds pretty good although I do hear a little clickety clack from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Brown Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Randy: I think your car is haunted. Maybe a little holy water and a St. Chris medal will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Yeah, Steve, I told Nell I'm beginning to think the car is possessed. Maybe I can scare it into submission bu threatening it with a chevy engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 27, 2003 Author Share Posted July 27, 2003 Short test drive today in the '56and the oil pressure remained at 25 or higher at 30-35 mph speed; leveled out right at 10 psi during idle. So far so good. Now to determine why the brand new temperature sending unit does not do its job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 28, 2003 Author Share Posted July 28, 2003 Shuttin' it all down for awhile....too hot to deal with this Packard LEMON. Old temperature sending unit works but not a good reading, new one does nothing. Oil pressure reading was good for first few miles, up to 35 psi but then ran down to no more than 15 psi at 45 mph and drops to an indicated 0 psi at fast idle and only recovers to maybe 10-15 at rev. up to 2000-2500 RPM. And then the speedometer and odometer went out and "something" made a very loud noise in the front suspension area a few times on the drive today. Speedo cable it isn't as it is still intact. Too many nagging UAs (unexplained anomalies).The oil pressure gauge is the second mechanical one on the car...oil is in the nylon tubing line. Read 0 psi (pegged on 0) when I parked it. Perhaps now I know why the car was parked for so many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 RO: i think the pump is the problem. Pressure relief valve is opening when it gets hot. Probably bad PR valve spring. The Zero pressure is probably really 3 pounds and just not enuf to move needle on gauge but keeps things lubricated at low speeds up to 25mph or so. Odd tho, anything under 7 pounds should make noisy lifters. Try plugging off the oil filter to see if it will pick up some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 30, 2003 Author Share Posted July 30, 2003 Brian, looks like a typical temp. sender unit to me and it has the threaded screw terminal. Haven't pulled any others out of the other cars so not sure which is the correct "length" but the new one has a longer sensing element on it by about 3/8-1/2." I'll have to check out those end bushings up front as the sound indeed was heavy metallic. Not a good day as the speedo cable also went out. As for the pump, if you trace back through (don't fall asleep)the many postings on this thread and I take that coupled with a good many emails from folks, all indications were the oil pump was the culprit. We checked the shaft on the new pump and the wobble/gap created on the old pump is not there on the new pump, so we are convinced the pump was bad. Having said that, I will say I did not get any feedback regarding my old pump, just a replacement one. I looked in the manual for possible causes of this lower oil pressure after traveling a little distance and eliminated everything but the PRV assembly. I did call and talk to Aller again tonight after he called me this morning and I believe he is also convinced enough now it is the spring in the new pump even though it's all new components. He said he sent me one of the newest designs thinking that would be best and I would certainly agree with that, but historically speaking he indicated of all the rebuilt pumps out there today, the older cotter pin type perform best and that is what he is going to send me. It is unfortunate I have no way of testing the pump without all the pain and agony of removing it from the car...but we'll do that and return it to Aller who will verify the pump as good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 30, 2003 Author Share Posted July 30, 2003 Clarification: 3/8-1/2" longer than the one I removed from THIS car. It has 240 stamped on the side. I cleaned it up but if it is reading correctly, then I'm running really cool but I doubt that as one can touch the radiator cap and get the ouch real quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 30, 2003 Author Share Posted July 30, 2003 In my "spare" time I am going to hook the new temp sending unit up to a spare gauge I have, heat the sender up, and see what the guage reads or if it will read. Now that brings up a question related to an earlier posting I had. The gas gauge and the temperature gauge are BOTH hooked up to a voltage regulator on the back of the instrument panel under the speedometer. I am wondering if that reduces the voltage to 6 Volts in which case I could just forget the voltage regulator and hook directly to a 6-volt battery, a few which I have around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52deluxe Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 as for the front sway bar bushings you can go down to autozone and in there help section or suspension section "its been a while" they have some bright red bushings in several sizes, i just took off one side and matched them up. i spent all of 6.00 for both sides and have had no more noise in the front end. my 70 dodge sometimes make strange noises in the front turned out the passenger side king pin is worn. when i hit a bump the tire moves and makes a really irritating noise.just a thought.tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 RO check the packardclub web site (tune Up section), I know the 54 Packard (6V) and the 55 Packard (12v) Both Use the same part # for the instrument voltage regulator as well as the same fuel sending unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted July 31, 2003 Author Share Posted July 31, 2003 Update. Since a new oil pump is on the way, I went ahead and took the time to hook up another oil pressure gauge at the oil filter inlet and have confirmed the oil pressure is in reality dropping as both gauges (independent makes) had identical readings. Started off just shy of 40 psi and then does pretty good for a few minutes and at 30-35 mph or an idle of 1500+ stayed around 20-25 psi. Idle good at 10-15 psi and engine sounds great. But after it warms up, the oil pressure goes down to less than 5 on both gauges and this time I could hear some clacking starting to occur in the engine. Reving up the engine will not bring it back up above 15-20 psi. After reading similar characteristics a guy was having with his new engine and new oil pump this morning on a Ford site with the conclusion the PRV was the problem, it certainly looks like that is the problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 1, 2003 Author Share Posted August 1, 2003 Found the email from back in early July from Randy Berger about a plug in the engine on the passenger side down from the oil pressure sending unit on top of the block. I saw that plug when I was under the car. I asked Bob A. about it, but he pointed toward the oil filter area. When I get back into this thing, if I cna get that plug out "easily" I plan to tap in there and get the line out of the way by doing it that way. Randy, et. al., anyone actually hooked up an oil pressure gauge using that point? Any idea why that plug is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I cannot say why that area was drilled and tapped, but that is where I installed the fitting for my direct-reading oil gauge. I just assumed if the main passage feed was good enough for Packard's gauge, it's good enough for me. Squirt a little PB Blaster on the plug a day before you are going to remove it.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 The hole is there for manufacturing purposes. So that the oil gallery could be externally drilled at the factory which connects the right side of the engine oiling to the left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 RO, there is one thing I would do and it was mentioned before - make a rod with an attachment on the end to engage the tang of the oil pump. With the distributor removed insert the tool into the hole and maneuver it to engage the tang on the pump. With an electric drill spinning counter-clockwise you can see the pressure build up on your direct-reading gauge, and with the key turned on verify the idiot light went out. Naturally I would pay more attention to the gauge, but it's nice to verify that everything works as it should. You can do this before reinstalling the lower torque cover and starter and save yourself some labor.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 2, 2003 Author Share Posted August 2, 2003 I saved that posting/email. I had thought, however, that cranking the engine with the coil wire disconnected would have seen the pressure build up on the gauge, but it did not occur at all. But when we reconnected the coil wire and dealt with the flooded carburetor at 10 PM, the car fired up with no tapping. Runs good and quiet until the oil heats up, pressure goes way down, and clicking starts to occur. Pump didn't arrive today, so it's up into Tennessee where I have the parts car stashed to make some patterns for the holes for the moldings above the doors. The '56 did not have the moldings oddly enough although there was an indentatiion for holes on the left front door but none on the right front door. Right now I have two oil pressure gauges hooked up and the idiot light is negated due to using that sending unit hole for one of the gauges. Once we verify some decent oil pressure, I'll run the mechanical (or electric) gauge sending unit into that pipe plug hole you mentioned as it is quite accessible under there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 2, 2003 Author Share Posted August 2, 2003 Keith and Randy, I sent you emails with a couple jpegs attached to try and confirm the oil pressure pickup point plug. Will post them here once the submitted photos get approved. This is not quite what I remember from being under the car a couple weeks ago, but all I could find today. The car was much higher in the air and tailpipes and things removed when I saw the plug the first time. It is close to a "freeze" plug and a fitting, dependent upon size, might be a little hard to access, but should not be a problem. If I run a mechanical type line under there, I think I'll go to the copper tubing. What did you use, Randy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 2, 2003 Author Share Posted August 2, 2003 OK, Keith, I see the correct alternate plug just about an inch or so towards the passenger side from the top-mounted sending unit. Looks like I'll have to remove the piston vent tube for access, but have plenty of experience doing that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 RO, attached is best picture I could take showing original oil pressure sending unit and place where I tapped in for direct-reading gauge. My original sending unit is different from yours as I have a gauge. That's my trouble light in the upper left. This plug is easiest to get at if either the heater is removed or the distributor and original sending unit are removed. I'll email the pic around to the "packardnutz" also.YFAM,Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 3, 2003 Author Share Posted August 3, 2003 Good picture, Randy. I will remove that piston vent tube and hopefully have room to work in there. Don't want to go there via the heater system; been there on the parts car and it was very ugly. I'll try to restablish the idiot light sender in the top and tap in to the side with the pressure sender like you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 3, 2003 Author Share Posted August 3, 2003 Yes, that original type sender for a real gauge looks like what is on my Patrician. Looks like you have a good metal line for the direct reading gauge; right now I just have the tranparent tygon type tubing, but will use copper tube for the final setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 RO, I used the transparent line that came with the gauge and coiled the excess to allow for any movement or stress. It's been on there for a long time (30 years?).YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 3, 2003 Author Share Posted August 3, 2003 I see that now, can see a little oil in the line in the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 7, 2003 Author Share Posted August 7, 2003 Here's a photo courtesy of Mano Forsman in Sweden of the PI vacuum inhibited rebuilt oil pump. http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2676 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 7, 2003 Author Share Posted August 7, 2003 Keith, take notice of what Mano in Sweden used for vacuum assist. He rebuiltthe engine 100% totally ( EVERYTHING NEW ) and even bought a redesgined oilpump from the Club in California (vacuum part off and new plain cover. Hetook the Windsh.Wiper vacuum from a Rambler V8 dual fuel pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 7, 2003 Author Share Posted August 7, 2003 Attached photo shows the new mechanical oil pressure sending unit just beside the factory-mounted sending unit on top. When one removes that piston vacuum tube, it provides access to do this.http://www.aaca.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2677 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 RO: We need to get Mano online with us here at AACA Packard chat.Take a CLOSE look at the lower plate on the pump. You can ENLARGE the pic by clicking on the pic. Maybe my eyes r going bad BUT, that lower plate DOES NOT resemble ANYTHING thick enuf to incorporate a lower bushing as i understand PI does. WILL SOMEONE ELSE please take a look at it and confirm or refute my claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted August 8, 2003 Author Share Posted August 8, 2003 Yeah, I did blow the picture up very very large for details of the pump but cannot discern what you say. When I talked with PI about a month ago they pushed this "redsigned" aspect but made no mention of any lower bushing or anything other than a plate to replace the vacuum pump and blocking off the pipe. Mano is very knowledgeable on Packards and Kaisers. I met him through the Kaiser Frazers Owners Club International. He knows all about those oil pumps and the oil level situation, etc. and related in an emial to me that even after 100% engine rebuild with the PI pump, he still experienced engine clatter, which for him as I recall occurred mostly after long idles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Keith, you're absolutely right. If that pump is from PI, they have changed their opinion and are no longer installing a lower bushing. The plate would have to be 1/2 inch thick to install the bushing in a blind hole.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 RB: yes, about 3 years ago when i talked to PI voice to voice he indicated they used a 5/8 plate to replace the thin thrust plate and vac pump. The picture of Manos pump looks like just the thin production thrust plate. Maybe PI has changed their 're-design'. Also, the man at PI said that "we do NOT rebuild the pump but, only install the lower bushing and plate. The pump must be in good factory condition to apply our redesign." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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