Please share your knowledge about these cars

[Guest BJM]

These cars are really old and if someone owns one or is an automotive historian, please enlighten me.

1929 Graham Paige sedan

1916-18 Gray Dort Tourings

1924 Gardner

1930 Hupmobile

1916 Liberty Touring

1920 Oakland Touring

1919 Overland Touring

1921 Sayer Touring

Some of these I have never heard of. Others I have but don't have any reference articles on. I'm just generally curious about years made, what engines they had, where they sat in the hierarchy of low price to high price, where made/manufactured. Any photos, that sort of thing.

Thanks

Jake

[1937hd45]

Jake, The easy answer is to get a copy of The Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942 by Beverly Rea Kimes & Henry Austin Clark, Jr. It lists info on over 5000 cars made in the USA before WWII. Photos and histories of the cars and the people that built them. Four and a half pounds of info! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BJM]

I understand - I own the Post War version plus standard catalogs for Buick and Pontiac but those snippets are not necessarily what I am looking for. I'm kind of looking for owners comments on these cars, or historians that know a lot (or at least more then I do).

The Hemmings Classic Car magazine does a great job on pre-war cars I have never heard of. They also did a piece on a HCCA tour in Pennsylvania in the last issue. I have located the above cars for sale and although I may not purchase any or all of them, I sure would like to know more about them.

[Peter J.Heizmann]

3Jakes...Try the AACA Library & Research Center.

On the home page, click on "Library" in the far right column.

Regards,

Peter J... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest aussie610]

I can help with graham paige, either check my website http://au.geocities.com/graham_paige610/ or go to www.graham-paige.com

[Guest BJM]

Thanks Peter and Neil, I'll do both today!

[Guest c.johnson]

I have a 1920 Oakland 4 door sedan, model 6-34C, and a 1922 Oakland sedan, model 6-44.

My father has a 1917 Overland, model 75 (I think)

I would be glad to let you know what info I have.

cj

[Ivan Saxton]

The information I can give you is from Show issue of MoToR for Jan 1921, which may vary from the exact cars you want to know about, but may give a fair impression. I dont know Gray-Dort. Jim Formby had a lot of a Gray once, which appeared to be early 20's by appearance as best we could judge. The engine was a bit reminiscent of T Ford in size and style. Someone seems to have most desperately wanted it, because it disappeared: To whom I know not. I saw both 4 and 6 cyl Dorts on farms about the same time, but I know noone with one here now. Gray-Dort I never saw, so I'll just give you Dort.

Lycoming K engine, 30hp@2000rpm, expect 18mpg, detacheable L head, 2" diam big ends, 2 main bearings,splash feed oiling, 1 21/32" cast iron valves, thermosyphon cooling, 4 cyl 3 1/2x5 bore/stroke. cone clutch, 3 sp unit g/box,4.07 axle ratio, torque tube, cantilever rear springs, 108" WB, touring wt 2450lbs, $1215

Gardner same Lycoming 4cyl engine, same expected 18mpg, with smaller 1 1/2'' diam valves, but listed 35bhp @2200rpm. axle ratio was 4.42 to 1, 112"WB with Hotchkiss drive, semi-elliptic rear springs, weight 2480lbs cost $1195.

Note the cast iron valves, which you would need to throw over your shoulder without looking to see where they landed for both cars. It is interesting to note the diference in valve size, which could indicate that one make was using earlier series engines.

I would suggest that the 4 cyl Lycoming engine later used in the 4 cyl Auburn was probably a close derivative. From memory the date of that was about 24-26 era. Tom Cox said there was one in Sydney in the early 1960's, which went surprisingly well; and I knew of one near Charlton in northern Victoria a couple of years later that belonged to a bank manager, I was told; in good condition, asking 25 pounds. Stuart Middlehurst and I jointly owned a Summit with the same engine. It was an Australian make assembled from American components, and distinguished by a peculiar system of three interlinked semi-elliptic springs on each side, with the extreme ends attached to the axles. It was cut into a ute, was well used, and though it ran when it came I never saw it do so. It cost us 12 pounds & ten shillings. Eventually I told Sturart that as he was more interested in it than I, he should consider it his. I have never regretted that.

Liberty six cost $1795. The engine was listed as their own detacheable L-head with block and crankcase cast as one. Expect 18mpg, 3 1/8 x 5'' bore/stroke, 1" diam Nickel steel valves, 2"diam big ends, and 4 main bearings, listed as drilled crankshaft with pressure and splash oil feed, which doesn't make sense. plate clutch, 3 speed unit gear box, 4.66 to 1 axle ratio, 117"WB, touring wt 3000lb. thermosyphon cooling

Oakland own engine with block/crankcase cast as one, detacheable head OHV 6 cyl 2 15/16 x4 3/4" B&S

44bhp@2600rpm.1 5/8"diam big ends, 3 main bearings, aluminium pistons (only one of these cars I am quoting here that did not have cast iron pistons) 1 1/8"tungsten steel valves, drilled crankshaft,but again curiously listed as force feed and splash oiling, water pump cooling, cone clutch and 3 speed unit g/box, 4.5 axle ratio, hotchkiss drive with semi-elliptics; touring wt 2421lbs. cost $1365.

Overlqand L-head 4 3 3/8 x 4 b/s. no power, rpm, or economy figures stated. cast steel valves

1 3/8" diam, 1 3/8"diam big ends, guess the number of main bearings, crankshaft not drilled, force feed and splash oiling, plate clutch, 3sp g/box in unit, torque tube/cantilever rear springs, 100" WB, 4.5 axle ratio, touring wt 1940lbs, and it only cost you $895 new.

Sayer six had a 7R continental L-head engine, 3 1/4x 4 1/2 b/s detacheable head engine. 55hp at 2200rpm, and expect 15mpg. 2 1/4diam big ends with 4 main bearings and pressure oiling, and drilled crankshaft. water pump cooling. Hotchkiss drive with semi-elliptic rear springs, 4.75 rear axle ratio, 118"WB, touring wt 2850lb, cost $2195.

Obviously low to middle price range cars. If you were choosing one to buy new in 1921, Oakland might be good value if you wanted a more lively performance.

You are stretching the friendship to need all this typed out with 2-4 fingers, Jake. MoToR show issues are the best source of contemporary detail of cars. I take less notice of modern compendium books. because they generally dont tell you what you really want to know.

Ivan Saxton

[Guest BJM]

Ivan,

Thanks so much for the effort. It was/is an enjoyable read. As you can guess, these are all at the Reynolds Museum as is the 1915 Cadillac V8. I have tried the Library link on the AACA forum but it appears I need to send in the request, which is fine, but I am an impatient bloke.

I was not able to find anything on the Internet so far on the Sayer automobile excepting commercial uses as the Sayer and Scobill company.

The "Continental" engine - it appears in many cars pre-war. It appears this was the engine of choice for those upstart companies that wanted to build a unbiquitous car, but did not want to invest in the engineering to do so. I can't say I am much a fan of that thinking, and in fact all of these companies went out of business eventually, as probably did Continental and Lycoming, or else they became manufacturers of industrial applications motors.

More research to follow, but thanks. There certainly can not be many if any Sayers around.

[Guest BJM]

Liberty made from 1916 to 1924 when it was absorbed by another company. Always a six cylinder. I highly suspect the name Liberty came from the war effort in America during WW I.

[Guest prewar40]

I'm sure that everything written about Gardner is correct; but for the 1920-1922 models. In 1923 Gardner upgraded the engine and this was also used in 1924. 4 cyl, 213.6 CID, 43-45 HP, Bore and Stroke 3 11/16 x 5. MoToR (Jan 1924) said cast iron pistons Gardner said light weight. Valves were still cast iron. This was a 5 bearing engine, and the only 5 bearing 4 cyl in 1923-1924. A Lycoming engine that would be used in 1925 with Auburn, and I think ElCar. Gear ratio was 4.80. Wheel base 112. Price range $995 for the roadster and touring; $1,445 for the sedan. Cannonball Baker made the first MIDWINTER coast to coast run in a 1924 Gardner sedan. New York to Los Angeles, in February. Running time 4 days 14 hours 15 minutes. I'll try to attach a picture of a 1923 sedan.

[Guest BJM]

Nice looking car and/or a great restoration. It's a heavy looking car to me-very solid. Weren't the steel disc wheels an indicator of mid to higher price vehicles by 1924? I like wood spoke, but they always seemed 'horse drawn' so disc wheels were a movement to a true "auto"mobile.

[Guest c.johnson]

Ivan;

Very good, but not quite right. Oakland used a Northway engine from about 1912 through 1921, when Oakland changed to Saginaw engines with model 6-44. (Dykes manual for this period has the info correct)

Northway engines were also used in Scripps Booth, and Oldsmobile for this period, but Oakland was noted for the 6cy ohv.

Northway model 111 D engines are very easy to spot as they have the pushrods for the rocker arms on the outside of the engine - looks like some kind of knitting machine when the car is running.

Anyway, a small bit on Northway engines.

[Ivan Saxton]

Thank you for correcting that. I just copied from my only fragile copy of MoToR, and I guess they printed what the manufacturers provided. Should we then assume that Northway was even a part of GM, and thus maker of different engines for several GM divisions? I have been told that Chev 4 and Oldsmobile four were almost identical Northway engines; the heads being interchangeable except that Olds had three exhaust ports, while most Chev had one, increasing later to two. So the Olds head is prbably the best to use if you want to adapt for a T Ford Speedster. One of my friends, (to whom I gave a model 80 Pierce that didn't really interest me much) said he has a spare 4 valve Olds head I can use for that purpose, which might be even more interesting. Whether that is Northway or aftermarket is another question.

The exposed pushrods operating are fascinating. A friend had a 1916 6 cyl Buick which was exposed, but they enclosed them after that. Stuart Middlehurst spoke of the assortment of very old trucks that the biggest brewery in Melbourne used to deliver headache supplies to hotels outside the central area that were still served by horse drawn waggons through the late 1940's. His favourite was a very very old slow reving Bussing NAG 4 cyl, and he described overtaking it on a long hill, with the open pushrods visible because there were no sides on the engine bonnet (you call hood).

A valve mechanism even more curious is the 6 cyl, 6 litre cuff-valve Peugeot, with slender conrods from crankshafts on either side of the engine operating blade rockers on the cross T's which control the valves in the top of the bore. One valve crank runs at engine speed, the other at half engine speed. When the two conrods are in agreement the valve moves; in disagreement it stays put. I have a spare cylinder head to send to Jean-Pierre in France to complete his second engine: then I'll try to persuade him to take a digital video of his restored car running with the valve cover removed so we can all enjoy it.

Ivan

[Guest c.johnson]

Here is a quote from an article about Northway:

"Northway was purchased by WC Durant for the growing General Motors Company in 1909. A few years later, it was reported for the year 1912, that Northway was making 11,000 engines a year. Oakland was then the largest single customer with buying 5000 engines, with the rest of Northway?s production spread among twelve other car and truck assemblers. By the early Twenties, because of growth volume and a lack of design control, both Oakland and Oldsmobile moved away from outsourcing their engines, and begun to build their own engines in house in Pontiac and Lansing. So even 75 years ago, GM had to worrier about the market resistance to badge engineering and the lack of brand identification. In the end, the Northway engine was known only as a truck engine, with GMC Truck becoming its only customer. In mid 1925, the once proud Northway Motor and Manufacturing Division was transferred out from under the Inter Company Parts Group to direct operation and control under the GM Truck Division. But this was short lived, because after Yellow Truck and Coach Manufacturing Company purchased and acquired the GM Truck Division in September 1925, the Northway division was quietly disbanded and discontinued. By March 1926, the Northway property in Detroit, which was by then called GM truck Plant No. 7, was purchased by Chevrolet Motor Division for the manufacture of front and rear axles and parts for past model Chevrolets. "

I know I got this from an AACA member, who published it in a car magazine. I hope whomever it was will forgive me - and chalk it up to my getting older, but I'll be darned if I can remember who gave it to me, or in which magazine it was. Otherwise I firmly believe giving credit where credit is due.