MarvMarvs Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 My 1956 Cadillac with the 365 V8(also with brake problems)recently started producing white exhaust. It does have the "sweet" exhaust smell so I think its coolant but,the oil is normal and clear without any water and is not "Milky". The engine by the way runs great. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heidigirl Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 first thing that comes to mind is a blown head gasket. does it smoke continually or just at start up and until the engine is warm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Sounds like you are getting coolant into the combustion chambers...probably a bad head gasket, or (less likely) a cracked head or block.Do you know if the vehicle has ever been over-heated ? ( Could cause a cylinder head to warp)Head gasket failures do not always mean that coolant will get into the crankcase... but if it does, and gets circulated through the oiling system, it will destroy any bearing it somes in contact with; also the coolant will form a goopy sludge with the engine oil and cause corrosion...It would probably be best to confirm whether or not this is indeed coolant showing-up in the exhaust, and if so, to find the cause and correct it. Especially if the car sits for long periods between runs.The car may run acceptably for many miles before other collateral problems surface, and by then it will probably mean "complete overhaul".Performing a "cylinder leak-down test" or having a "dye test" done on the coolant should determine whether or not there is leakage between the combustion chambers and the cooling system.Bear in mind that while under compression and ignition, combustion chamber pressures far exceed the approximately 15 lbs of pressure in the cooling system at operating temp... BUT, when you park the car "hot", that 15 lb head of pressure on the cooling system will force coolant past a bad gasket or cracked casting into places it shouldn't go, and the coolant will lay there until the next time the engine is operated.How many miles on the Caddy ? If it's over 50,000 miles, this wouldn't be a bad time to pull the heads and do a valve job and replace the valve guide seals (which are probably rock-hard by now)...Just my $.02/worth... my 1960 Chrysler Windsor had to have its engine rebuilt at 82,000 miles because a blown head gasket went un-diagnosed for too many miles...Good luck ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvMarvs Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 At this point it smokes continually, but I haven't wanted to run it too long because I might be doing damage to it even though its running good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvMarvs Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 The car was represented as having had the engine and transmission rebuilt. It has always run well, especially after I had it tuned up. I did have the radiator re-done with new hoses and belts. It previously had a leak in the lower tank. I am not aware if it had ever been overheated, at least not by me. We had been driving the car regularly up thru the fall, but this winter have not driven it much. Especially since we started having brake problems and now this potential problem with the white exhaust smoke(coolant probably). At this point I'm not inclined to run it because of doing possible damage to the engine. At this point I don't appear to have any water in the oil, it is dark,clear amber, as it should be. I'm not sure of actual mileage though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken G Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 One point, no two, that nobody seems to have raised before. If you are getting coolant into the cylinders, enough to deliver obvious steam in the exhaust, you must be losing substantial amounts of coolant. Are you? Also, it would be unlikely that you would get exactly the same degree of leakage into all cylinders. If when the engine is warm, you crank it without starting and then check the spark plugs, is one of them wet?The other point is that if coolant goes into a cylinder, almost certainly exhaust gas goes into the coolant. In fact it is more likely because there's much more positive pressure expelling gas through a leak then negative sucking in water. If you take off the filler cap, I assume you do not see bubbles or foam in the radiator, because you would have said so already, but do you smell exhaust fumes? On my Rover, a local garage applied the hydro-carbon analyzer used for smog testing to the air in the top of the radiator and demonstrated that the hydro-carbon content was not dissimilar to that at the exhaust pipe .... pretty convincing evidence of a leak (a head gasket or worse still, a crack in the block), even though the compression was fine.Ken G, 1925 Rover 16/50 (San Francisco) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbartlett Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I know nothing about Cadillacs, but is there any chance that you are burning brake fluid via a leak in the master cylinder passing fluid into the vacuum booster, and from there into the intake manifold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mena Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Hey Mark:Brake fluid, and tranny fluid being drawn into the intake through vacuum lines will also cause white smoke.Does the car have power brakes, or automatic tranny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Boltendal Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 If you are not running the car at the moment take out the plugs after a day or two, have some body start the car and see if coolant comes out of one of the cylinders, to determine the cylinder it concernes, if any.An early indicatormight be a grey white, clean burned plug, due to the coolant that was burned.Hope you find the bad one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvMarvs Posted February 23, 2006 Author Share Posted February 23, 2006 Hi, yes the Caddy has both automatic transmission & power brakes. If it was brake fluid would it still have the same "sweet" smell as if it was coolant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I'm not certain, but I believe brake fluid when burned has a "sharp", acrid odor to it...not "sweet" like coolant ...If you're feeling brave, wet your finger with a little coolant and touch it to your tongue... if what you smell in the exhaust is like what you taste on your finger, then you're burning coolant.Randy Berger started another thread regarding the actually physical possibility of brake fluid being able to get past the brake booster diaphragm, and be drawn into the intake...the most power brake boosters are designed, it would be very difficult for brake fluid to get past both the seals in the master cylinder AND the diaphragm in the booster too...A quick check for this would be to disconnect the vacuum hose from the booster and see of there's any evidence of brake fluid in the booster-end of the hose.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Another thing to check is the spark plugs, engine coolent hitting a hot spark plug will clean the plug, if you have one really clean plug you know even what cylinder it is, you may also see bubbles rising out of the rad when the engine is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketDude Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I'm not familiar with the trans on that car, but if it has vacuum modulator, it can rupture and suck trans fluid into the engine and it will smoke like crazy. I have seen it many times with a powerglide trans. they use a vacuum modulator, using engine vacuum to control shifting, and they can rupture and suck fluid into the intake manifold. It will smoke like a freight train! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 you have blow-by.your have a bad cylinder.by a $15 compression tester and check all cylinders, the psi should be 195psi to 165psi. low numbers are not bad, just all cylindes need to be even. so a 195,195 165, 125, etc is not good.then squirt some motor oil in each cylinder and repeat the process. The psi numbers should rise 20psi on each one.Also, if you start the engine and take off the oil filler cap, and see if you have "smoke signage" come out, this is leaking valve guides.I drove my white cloud maker for five years, with a 135psi cylinder, before the rear main seal blow out from the back pressure and i lost four qts of oil in 100 miles.If the previous owner rebuild all that stuff, and sold the car, he must have gotten pissed off about something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Tommy,It's the "Sweet smell" of the white smoke that raises a red flag."Sweet" = "Coolant" (ethylene glycol)"Blow By" usually is combustion gasses getting forced past the rings, into the crankcase, and out through the breather ( then on through the PCV system on "newer" cars ).Blow-by or oil-smoke from bad rings "just stinks" and while it isn't terribly good for the environment or the image of the vehicle producing said cloud, it doesn't necessarily mean that the motor is in imminent danger of self-destructing. Coolant getting where it shouldn't is another matter, and should be investigated and corrected as soon as possible.I'm perhaps a little over-sensitized to this particular issue, owing to my experience with a 1960 Chrysler big-block that was sent to an early rebuild due to a failed head gasket: it allowed coolant to leak into an oil gallery, and contaminated the oil. The previous owner had no clue as to what was going on, with the exception of probably having to add coolant to the radiator frequently.The damage evidenced itself when the rod bearings began to knock, after being destroyed by the antifreeze now present & circulating in the oil.When I tore the motor down, there was less than .005" taper in the cylinder bores, very little ridge at the top of the cylinders, and cross-hatching from the factory honing was still visible on the cylinder walls; this engine would have EASILY run up to 150,000 miles before requiring overhaul, had it not been for this head-gasket failure at 80,000 miles.Collateral damage: three spun rod bearings, "wiped" cam, scored mains. Crank had to be cut .030" on the rods and .010" on the mains. New Cam & bearings. Three rods re-conditioned on the big end. Original pistons cleaned and knurled. Cylinders honed. All valve springs replaced (half of them snapped when the ehad was disassembled). Heads rebuilt.The project ran about $1,500.00 with myself doing all of the work except for machine-shop services.I'm not saying that I know exactly what is wrong with Marv's Caddy, but I do think it should be thoroughly checked-out at this point, before real damage occurs.As for my Chrysler, I got it when the engine was knocking badly, but still running. There was no "sweet smell" to give away the headgasket problem. Wish there had been.Just my little voice of experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvMarvs Posted February 27, 2006 Author Share Posted February 27, 2006 Frank, I am going to work on the brakes first and get the booster/treadle-vac fixed. Then I'll see if I still have any smoke once I get the brakes sorted out. The smell does throw me though, and I don't intend on running it much until I can figure it out. There is no water in the oil at this time, but I will keep everyone posted. Thanks, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Good enough Marv...I don't think I have any new ideas to contribute to the topic at this point...( Actually, I do have something new to contribute: If you disconnect the vacuum line bewteen the engine and the brake booster, plug it to prevent a vacuum leak to the engine, then start and run the engine in the driveway until it's thoroughly warmed-up. If the white smoke "magically" disappears, look at the inside of that vacuum line for tell-tale traces of moisture/brake fluid odor that would suggest booster issues. If indeed the white smoke/odor went away after disconnecting the booster, then re-connect it and see if the smoke/odor returns...if it does, then the booster is the culprit.From my accidental "taste-testing" of both ethylene-glycol coolant and DOT-3 & 4 brake fluid, brake fluid has a much "sharper" odor/taste than does coolant, and brake fluid being burned in the engine has an "acrid" smell (similar to the odor produced when something electronic "fries"). Sort of the culinary difference between white vinegar (brake fluid) and Balsamic (coolant)...If you're having braking issues, that 's pretty important to get resolved too !Good luck with your Caddy ! (My uncle used to have a '54 Caddy series 62 that I lusted after when in high-school...a green four-door with every toy except A/C !) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvMarvs Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Hi Frank, thanks for all of the info! My wife grew up with her dads 1955 Coupe DeVille and had wanted one for quite a long time. We had quite a tough time finding anything reasonable in good condition out here in California. So many have already been purchased and shipped out of the state long ago. And, so much of whats left is either fully restored and cost a kings ransom to buy, or are absolute junk. We thought this was a car in reasonable mechanical shape that we could drive a little, and work on restoring it with out it breaking down on us constantly. We had it for about 6 months before things started happening. But we love it and will get it done eventually. Luckily we belong to a local car club thats been around awhile, and a lot of the guys have years of experiance on these old cars that I don't. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Mark,Writing from one of the "Rust Capitals" of the East, we like to find something with nice coachwork, then the mechanicals are a "piece of cake"...Any "antique" is a "used car", and rarely can you be absolutely certain as to what has or hasn't been done to it over the years... same goes for "restorations" and "engine rebuilds"... unless you get thorough documentation with the vehicle (and occasionally you run across such a car), there's some risk involved.Take comfort in the reasonably certain knowledge that you probably won't have to "fix the same thing twice" on your Caddy... A lot of owner/restorers just deal with maintenance and repairs as-needed, especially if the car is a decent survivor...so, there's always something to be done...It takes a while to get to know the car, find out what its issues are, and then deal with them...Hang in there ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvMarvs Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 Frank, thanks for the encouragement. I will definately hang in there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvMarvs Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Frank, I just got my Caddy back from having ABS brake & steering in Orange, Ca. completely re-do my brakes. The treadle-vac was completely overhauled(it was shot and full of fluid), they relaced all 4 wheel cylinders & replaced all of the brake lines, and did a complete inspection. They found the previous owner had installed a new set of shoes all around backwards! Also the emergency brake cable was so bad it broke on them and they replaced that as well. The long and the short of it is that my brakes now work beautifully!! Also, no more white smoke coming out of the exhaust, it was drawing brake fluid into the intake and that was what was doing it. I must admit I had so much going on and was a little stumped as to exactly what was what.These guys were recommended to me by more than one classic car guy, they specialize in working on the older cars. Just wanted to update anyone who was following this one, thanks for all of the input from everyone. So far so good for now, you never know when something else might crop up with an older car. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Marv,Thanks for "the rest of the story" !Glad it was brake-related, and not the engine... also glad that the brakes got the attention they apparently needed Good luck ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarvMarvs Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 Frank, your welcome. Thanks for all of the great advice and suggestions. It is a great car despite the problems that have crept up. The brakes truly did need attention, and now we can drive it with a great deal more confidence. My wife and I were out driving it this weekend, and sure enjoyed having it back. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest De Soto Frank Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Well, you have to expect a few problems now and then with a fifty year-old car... When I was young and foolish, I didn't think too much about brakes... all I cared about was making the old jalopy "go"... then I had several vehicles (each over twenty years old) that blew-out brake lines or wheel cylinders (all but one incident occured in the garage or driveway, thank goodness!), and I began to think about brakes a little differently !Enjoy driving your Caddy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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