UNRESOLVED MATTER WITH TPC & PAC

[Guest]

It is with great regret that I have to handle the Berry matter in this way, but I feel that there is no other way.

Since coming back from Hershey is October last year I have been very silent on the matter in this forum. Even after the rude treatment given me at the PAC tent, I came home and tried to get the matter resolved through other people at PAC. The bottom line is that the PAC and the editor of TPC refuse to print my letter to the editor sent to him last March. What they offerd to print was a letter composed by them that basically would have me making an apology for making the matter public in this forum and thanking the editor for the privilage to being able to add the submitted information to his story. The lettter they prospoed would have made no mention of the blatant mistakes and the unethical use of his emplyers name in the Berry story.

There are a couple of things that realy bother me about this whole thing. They refuse to make an apology to me for the bad behavoir they showed me at Hershey. They demand that I thank them for for being able to add to the Berry story. When it should be them that should be thanking my wife and me for making it possible for them to get the story of Mr. Berry.

I might also say that this matter with PAC is far from being closed, and I will press them on the matter at times of my choosing.

John F. Shireman

[Guest Packardsforever]

Man, my biggest worry is getting my 54 Pacific to start again. I have no idea what you guys are talking about and just want to enjoy the Packard cars.

[R W Burgess]

Brian, I've been following this situation since before Hershey, even had intention of checking out the PAC tent, but the weather got the better of me.

I'm disappointed that John couldn't get anywhere with the people in Hershey.

Wayne

[Guest]

Just as in the Revival Story there are some interesting questions that the author raises in his writing of the Berry story. I think that the author and the editor of the TPC being one in the same should be asked. If someone from this forum should ask him to answer these questions if asked, he should have the courage to answer the questions.

Thank You for your support in this matter.

John F. Shireman

[Guest AlK]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Man, my biggest worry is getting my 54 Pacific to start again. I have no idea what you guys are talking about and just want to enjoy the Packard cars. </div></div>

Packardsforever:

Trust me when I tell you that this is one topic that you will want to stay lightyears away from. Most of the posters here, have and that would be the best advice that you could get. I'm sure you will chapter and verse on a rebuttal later on.

[Guest]

AlK: Talking of lightyears. It seems that the people running PAC and the editor of the TPC seem to do, stay lightyears away from a subject when they are caught with thier pants down. Meaning when they are wrong on something and someone points out thier mistake, they hide behind a wall silenece

Every time I bring up this matter you always seem to get on my case, get on the case of the people you seem to want to defend. They are are ones who choose the way this matter has gone, not me. They started this and I will dang well finnish it no matter how it takes.

Remember that if you come north this year, please come and visit me.

John F. Shireman

[Guest]

Stu: In the story you wrote about Brad Berry that was published in the winter edition of the TPC raises some interesting questions.

On page 25 you stated that Brad's 1948 Custome Eight was repainted and had a replacement top. Then on page 28 you again stated (IT HAD CLEARLY BEEN REAPINTED SINCE STELLA AND I HAD SEEN IT IN 1991). On page in the TPC you have a copy of the sales flyers from the auction. On the flyer it clearly states in big Capital Letters that Brad 48 was UNRESTORED. It seems to me that after reading your story, that you are saying that the auctioneer Mr. Grant Miller and Sam Rockey misrepsented the car. DID GRANT MILLER AND SAM ROCKEY MISREPESENT THE CAR. The way I have always figured things that when a car is repainted it can no longer be considerd unrestored.

I invite you to come in here and answer my question, I know that you have answered questions asked of you about the Berry Story in other venues.

John F. Shireman

[Guest imported_Packards1]

Where I come from a paint job is not a restoration. If it was, Earl Schieb restored more cars than anyone.

[Guest BigKev]

I have to agree with you on that. Unrestored is not the same as original. Original, to me, means that the paint, body components, engine, upholstery have not been redone, except normal regular maintance parts. A car rusting in a field for the last 30 years should by definition be called original as nothing has ever been done to it. Unrestored simply means that the car was NOT put back to a state that mimics how it came from the factory. By that definition, a car can be both original and unrestored at the same time. A car can be repainted a hundred times and still be unrestored. But by that point, I would not call it original anymore as it does not have the same paint as it left the factory with. I think there are very few fully restored cars could also be called original.

Just me $ .02's

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Kev,

?? Can you Repeat that One More Time ??

<img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> No, I agree Fully........I think. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BigKev]

Yeah, I re-read that and fixed it. I guess when you have the kids asking questions every two seconds, your train of thought goes right off the track.

[Guest imported_Packards1]

While working at the old Cadillac plant in Detroit 25 years ago, I watched finished cars at the end of the assembly line, being spot sanded, bondoed, primed and painted all in the lenght of 50 yards. It was awful to see the "original" paint being screwed up. They masked around everything and of course panels did not match. This was on the car GM called the standard of the world. (SOW for short). We all know what a sow is. Can you imagine the care that went into the Checy vega line? Anyway, The point is that even "original" cars are not like they are supposed to leave the factory all the time. My 56 400 never had the back side of the wheels finish painted or the edges of the fender skirts painted, only primer. I think a judge would say it wasn't "original" like that.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, Is it original Like it Supposed to Be, Or original Like it actually was when built? Is the question that is Often Overlooked in Show judging. Especially when judging pre-war cars, cause there are not that many people still alive that really know the difference, for sure.

[Guest BigKev]

It pretty common for cars to get repaired at the factory or in route from the factory. As an example, I bought my Honda brand new from the dealer in 96, about 3 years ago I noticed what I thought was small scratches all over the front of the hood from rocks.

When I took the car in to get in repainted I was told that the front of the hood had been repainted once before and the used a lacquer based paint instead of the enamel based paint like the rest of the car. The heat from the engine caused the section painted in lacquer paint to crack. So of course it cost me extra to have the hood stipped down to metal, and that is where they found the skim coat of bondo. It must have been damaged in shipment and repaired before delivery to the dealer.

I found out this is pretty normal practice by the factory and by the transportion companies.

[R W Burgess]

Kev, The same thing happened to my Dad's newly ordered '63 Impala. As the car carrier was unloading it at the dealership, the top gate came down and bent in the top rear "ridge" line of both rear fenders. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> The dealer called Dad and told him what had happened and that they were repairing it. It looked fine till the day he traded it. Honest dealers of yesterday, another thing of the past.

Wayne

[Guest Albert]

Kinda makes me wonder how much damage was done to the cars that traveled by trains? Twenty years ago all the railway cars that carried the new car where open, now they have closed them up completly, maybe too many kids and stones, who knows...

[Guest]

To answer some of you fellow posters about repainted cars in this hobby. In the part of the country that I live in if there is an unrestored class if your car has been repaited, you will not be permitted entry into that class.

Stu: I just got done converting some VHS tapes over to DVD. Would you like a dvd showing Brad receiving the trophy from the local AACA show for best unrestored automobile. Some how I doubt that you will take me up on my offer about the dvd. I very disapointed that you have not answered the question that I ask you concerning you fictional story about Brad. It seems to me that if you write something for public consumption, that when someone asks you queestions about the story, you should be more than willing to answer them.

Just to remind you of onething, when you and I talked about your coming to see Brad, you stated you just wanted to come and visit. There was no mention ever made to me or to Brad, of your intentions of writing a story about Brad. So at the very least you and your wife came under false pretenses. How often have you obtained other stories in this manner?

John F. Shireman

[DutchDarrin]

Mr. Shireman & Mr. Blond

Has there been any movement to settle this matter?

THE GREAT GRAND WIZARD

1929 Packard Sedan-Limousine by Willoughby

[Guest JT]

GGW, why don't you flame elsewhere <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

(Yawn)

BTW?was Sendan a custom coachbuilder? A competitor of Derham & Henney in the Limo biz? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[mrpushbutton]

It's time to get over this and die of something else.

[Clipper47]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's time to get over this and die of something else. </div></div>

Amen.

[Guest AlK]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's time to get over this and die of something else. </div></div>

Amen. </div></div>

DITTO and in spades, however I fear that we are in for more of the same.

[Guest JT]

I'll bet GGW is having a laugh about now <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gee, if perfect typing/spelling/grammar/punctuation are required to participate in this forum, I guess I better go somewhere else to discuss Packards. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I saw the word "Sendan", but it was pretty obvious what the writer intended the word to be. However, it looks like he was good enough to take time out to correct that error once it was pointed out. </div></div>

Hi Brian,

I?m sure I?ve made my share of typos, but the point being that this ?new member? seems to be another PFH style troll whose first & only post is an attempt to resurrect a matter that IMHO doesn?t belong here in the first place.

I seriously doubt the ?THE GRAND WIZARD? is indeed a new member who owns the car in his sig. If he is a legit new member, my apologies are humbly extended. However, I can?t imagine a genuine new member with a ?27 limo stumbling in here only to stir the pot about an old issue. If it isn?t PFH, it?s someone else on his level.

Best,

John

[DutchDarrin]

I consider asking a question neither flaming or stirring the pot.

The automobile that I own, is a 1929 model, not a 1927.

THE GREAT GRAND WIZARD

1929 Packard Sedan Limousine by Willoughby

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I consider asking a question neither flaming or stirring the pot.

The automobile that I own, is a 1929 model, not a 1927.

THE GREAT GRAND WIZARD

1929 Packard Sedan Limousine by Willoughby </div></div>

Hi Wizard, glad to meet you and sorry about the typo regarding the year of your car. Tell us more!!!! Where do you live? Are you a member of PI or PAC? How long have you had your car? Is it restored?....original???

I just found it strange that your first post to this forum would be a question about a thread that has been dormant for a month, rather than introducing yourself to the forum and sharing some info about you and your car (we?ve had some issues here with trolls who just show up to start arguments and sidetrack meaningful discussion of Packards).

Best,

John

[mrpushbutton]

John--Turbopackman's plea to see your side of the story has struck a chord with me. I have ended up being a semi-professional obit writer for another hobby publication (not antique cars) where we have a membership fading into the sunset at an accelerated pace. One thing I have discovered doing this is that the people we know and whose company we enjoy are multi-faceted characters. I have found that after a good friend's passing that I knew the "hobby" side of him/her. I then met and talked (and drank) with others who knew the family,work,church and even the childhood/schooldays aspects of the same person. When we get up at the memorial service to speak, we enlighten each other to a side the others knew very little of. We all know one layer, one facet of all but the most simple minded persons, and in this hobby, we are complex characters with widely divergent backgrounds and motivations.

This is what makes the movie "Citizen Kane" so fascinating, that Orson Welles, at the grand old age of 24 recognized this and made it the central plot of what is considered the finest Hollywood film ever made.

Which brings me to this point:(finally) What if: you wrote a piece on "the Brad I knew" and not begin this article with a lot of junk tearing down Stu's piece, which was written from the facet of Brad that he perceived. Leave all of that intrigue out, concentrate on the Brad that you knew, from your memories and knowledge of his activities. Post it here, where it will be enjoyed. Stuart will most certainly read it, and he, as a club publication editor is most certainly in constant need for material. If he reads a piece that genuinely reveals a facet of a man known to the hobby, that is an interesting, positive read, he may very well include it in a future issue. I can't blame him for not wanting to publish an article that starts out "you are full of crap, you don't kow what you are talking about....blah,blah,blah........

I can't explain any reluctance to print your letter to the editor, however. That is the forum for such discussions, and a proper place to refute inaccurate article text. In my guise as a published author, I would be happy to help you write this, and would offer non-judgemental advice on content and structure. Write away, and send to my private mail box here. I'll help, if you want.

[Guest]

Mr. Pushbutton: Let me start of by saying that your offer is very generous, something that I will think over, after the current disagrement with SBR and Pac comes to a conclussion. I will also ad, that until my letter in its orignal form is published in the TPC, the dispute will continue on. I in one way can see why Stu refuses to publish my letter, because it would certainly cast alot doubts, about his honesty and integrity as an author, in the Packard Community.

I must admit that I would certainly be nice to see a truth full article printed in the TPC about Brad, but I will make no contributions while the current editor of the TPC remains in his post. Now on other hand if Stu and PAC wants to come into this forum, and make a public apology to me and my wife, for the lack of respect shown for us, and the bad behavior shown to me last October, then that stance might change. Had Stu written a truthfull article about Brad there would be no dispute, however he choose to use the article, as a vehicle to get some free publicity for his current employer and a few selected Packard buddies, and also to try and enhance his own reputation and his wifes.

In closing this reply to you, I will meet you part way on your offer. What I propose to do, is as follows, send you a series of emails containing the cover letter and the letter to the editor, that I sent Stu back in March of last year.

It also might be noted that if Stu comes out an states that he never received such a letter, I proof that he did.

John F. Shireman

[Guest BJM]

This is indeed the proper forum to continue said discussion. John's last comments are straight forward and without unprofessional emotion. Yes, there are some who want this subject to pass, yet when it pops up-there is immediate interest. It smacks of exclusivity at the top of the club, which I am not a member nor do I own a Packard.

In the Buick Club of America, which I am a member, there are several Board meetings annually including at the National Meet, where this subject could be brought up. If I were bringing it up, I would be stressed out and nervous, but one would be allowed to speak. Now, I don't know about the Packard club.

[Guest BJM]

By the by,

Who is this PFH and what is Stuart Blond's sign on name?

[Guest]

Mr. Pushbutton: Check your AACA mailbox. You have a message.

[Guest]

mrpushbutton: I am still waiting for you to send me your email address. I would very much like to keep up my end of my offer to you. That is that I send a copy of the letter, that Stu Blond has from me concerning the Berry matter.

John F. Shireman