56 special problems...any help please..

[xschx]

i can't get my car started. after a while trying before and suggestions from people i finally changed the starter solenoid this past weekend. it seemed to work as the car at least started to turn over. so it started for about 10 seconds before it died and then after trying again it seemed to kill the battery. so i put another battery i had on and it started to turn over again. it sounded sluggish probably because of it sitting for so long and losing the lubrication. so the other battery seemed to have died. i just figured the drag was using more power. so to hopefully make it start better i atempted to install the pertronix electronic iginition kit and coil i got. i ended up wiring it wrong by hooking the red wire to the coil + instead of to the ballast resistor. i didn't think the car had the resistor due to the poor diagram instructions. so when i attempted to start the car a relay clicked like a machine gun and i stopped it as soon as i could react. i took it all out and put the old points and coil back in. then i charged the battery a little and it tried to turn over a little and then nothing. it just seems to kill batteries. must take a lot to start. so i went out and bought a brand new ever start maxx with 1000 cranking amps. hooked it up last night and nothing. just a relay click. not even the solenoid it reacting anymore. tonight i hooked the battery to the charger and it showed 0 on the meter for a charge. so either it was dead from the store, which it being from walmart i don't doubt, or the car killed it. could something have happened where it is shorting batteries? the guy kept saying the ignition kit was for a 12v negative ground system which i thought the car was. could i have fried the solenoid already or a relay or something? its just frustrating because the starting system is simple on this car yet nothing seems to work. any help is much appreciated. any answers like what i can and can't ruin and what to try, how to test things like the solenoid off the car or something. i really hope i didn't get a bad solenoid because it was brand new in box and wasn't cheap and sold as is from ebay.

[Guest John Chapman]

xschx~

Could be a lot of things and a good chance it's a few in combination. I recommend you read the following link:

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=72823

Dr. Buick has put together a pretty good checklist of things to do on a dormant motor that might be helpful. There is a post dealing specifically with starting an engine that has been sitting a while.

One thing to check quickly is the condition of the battery cables and the connections. If they are corroded, you won't get all the juice through them that you'll need. Also, make sure that you've got a good ground to the block (done with a gounding strap) and the connections are clean and tight.

To identify one item on an old car is tough... chances are it's a combo of corroded connections, weak cables, poorly lubricated rotating parts, tired ignition parts/cables, stale gas, dirty filters, and bad tune. On a car seeing regular service, these all work together to plod along... but, let it sit for a while and they gang up on you....

Also, try your local NAPA outlet for parts. You'll be surprised at what they can dredge up! Look for the oldest guy there (grey hair and dirty nails are the best)... he'll remember what the catalogs are for. The kids get a blank look when you say '1956...' because, we all know... cars weren't built before 1968 (the current computerized cutoff point...)

Good luck!

JMC

[xschx]

thanks for replying. i was beginning to think i was on my own.

i read what you sent and its got a few good ideas but it is for a newer car without a generator or relays and such. as simple as this car's workings are its still a pain to diagnose problems.

as i said before i had replaced the solenoid and the car started to turn over. now i only get a click and i think its from a relay and not even the solenoid. i have new heavy duty battery cables on it, new solenoid, new battery, new coil.

what i think would narrow it down would be what it couldn't be. what are not required in the process to even get the car's starter to react... the 3 prong relay next to the voltage regulator, the regulator itself, the generator, etc... i know the starter relay that has the 4 prongs must be necessary. like if the generator or voltage regulator were bad would that prevent the car to just be dead? i have taken the top off the regulator and 2 relays to see which ones are and aren't reacting.

would the actually starter motor have anything to do with the solenoid not reacting? i had cleaned most the contacts before. i will check the ground. i think i need a grounding cable to ground to the firewall. the battery it grounded with a new cable to the block but the block has a small wire to the firewall and i was thinking that might be the ground. i always just thought since the block was touching the rest of the car it was always grounded.

[Pete O]

You can bypass everything else that's in the starter circuit (to see if they're causing a problem) by running a jumper wire from the positive post on the battery directly to the solenoid. The solenoid has two posts: one has a short strap that leads to the starter. It's the other post on the solenoid that you'll want to attach the jumper to. If the battery is good, the ground is good, and if the starter and solenoid are good, when you touch that jumper to the solenoid, the starter should kick in right away. The starter motor itself needs a good ground. I've seen some folks run a strap from the starter mounting bolts right to the negative terminal on the battery. But if the ground strap on the battery to the block is "bright and tight" and if the mounting surfaces between the starter and the bell housing are likewise clean, the starter should have a good ground.

[xschx]

thanks. thats weird you replied with that because someone just got done telling me to do that last night. i have to exchange my battery. i think the 1000 amps is an overkill. last night i had it all charged up and the ballast resistor starting smoking. don't know if this was from the new battery power or from the new pertronix coil i got. i will have to contact them and ask about the instructions. the electonic ignition points replacement says to leave the ballast resistor on yet the instructions for the matching coil say to remove it if using the 1.5 coil on v-8's. anyway i will go back to the 750 amps i was using before. i think that car was originally rated for around 700 or so. the battery the guy through in the car was only 570. i am hoping with trying to get it started i didn't overheat the starter motor but if i did then the solenoid should still kick in which it doesn't right now. i took the starter relay off last night as well and its all rusted so i took a dremel and cleaned it. hopefully this will work or i will check my connections to make sure they are tight from when i replaced the solenoid. i just ruled that out because right after it did try to start and then stopped and didn't want to since.

[Pete O]

I'm no expert electrician, but I don't think a high amperage rating on a battery makes any difference. The battery doesn't "push" amps into the circuit. The components in the circuit "draw" amperage from the battery. They'll draw what they need and that's all they'll draw. You need a battery that can provide the amperage that is being demanded of it, but if the battery has extra capacity, thats even better.

Smoking components usually mean a short circuit somewhere. Maybe some wires are reversed in the new hardware you installed (the hot is on the ground or the ground is on the hot)?

[Pete O]

Let me correct something! The solenoid has three posts: two larger ones and one smaller one. Connect the jumper from the battery to the small post!

[JohnD1956]

Maybe the polarity on the regulator got reversed when you hooked up the pertronix backwards? I can't find the section on polarizing the voltage regulator but my manual has like 3 pages on failure to start conditions.

One of which has to do with open fields in the generator, which may be happening if the voltage regulator is reversed polarity.

Since your resistor was smoking, I'd be giving the electrical system a once over to make sure you didn't melt any wires that can short out now. especially those to the ignition switch and to the generator.

JD

-

[xschx]

i didn't exactly wire the ignition "wrong", more that the positive wire was to go to the resistor first instead of directly on the positive terminal. i have since just disconnected the wires from the resistor. the pertronix coil says it has built in resistance and to remove the resistor from the loop. the ignition gave directions to keep it and how to hook it up if it had it. i am guessing the coil was making it smoke. so i have pulled the starter off altogether. i have ordered a rebuild kit from napa for the amazing price of $20...with the drive gear included. how great is that. i have seen places sell just the gear for $20. so i get the kit tomorrow. figured what will it hurt to rebuild the starter. also i noticed some drag on the shaft bar on the solenoid. don't know the exact name for it. i noticed it was "greased" when i swapped it onto the new solenoid. i just figured it was oil as the car liked to bleed the stuff before and everything below the valve covers has a nice rust free coating. so i am going to get some lithium grease for the starter and solenoid shaft, and as suggested in the article posted, some marvel mystery oil to lube the cylinders.

as for the voltage regulator, the new one i have has instruction printed on the top of the thing. i tell you napa is my new friend. you run a jumper from the left battery prong to the middle generator one. instead of risking shock by tapping such a short wire i hooked them up and just touched the battery terminal to the battery post to make the spark and connection needed polarize. i was lucky enough to get one of those dealer 56 shop manuals so that is being a big help. it doesn't answer everything but does help.

[xschx]

i should also add that after the mishap with the ignition i thought i might have fried the regulator so i put the new one on and since have been using the points with the same results.

[xschx]

the solenoid on this car has 4 posts. one that hooks to a tang on the starter, 2 smaller ones, i believe one is to an igition wire and right now i forget what the other is. the 4th is the second larger one and i most likely is from the battery. i have to check. i just keep track of what went where and not what it did.

[xschx]

its alive! it cranks over quick and everytime now. doesn't actually start yet. i think i have to take care of the points and all that now. it was the starter motor. i rebuilt it today. the brushes were so far gone that there is wear on the arms that hold them. i did get a drive gear that is too short and a few times the start motor just went and never engaged. i can try to adjust the arm on the solenoid a little. there is that 3/8 or so slot to work with. thanks to all who replied.