Torque Converter OR Fluid Drive

['53 Windsor]

Hey everyone,

I have a 1953 Chrysler Windsor Deluxe (model C-60, straight six flathead engine) with a bit of an oil leak. I dropped the pan and checked everything out, and the rear main bearing seal looks just fine; it's not leaking anywhere. But when I removed the bottom cover plate on the fluid drive/clutch housing, I was greeted by a sickening sight. The front half of the unit was completely dry, but the rear half was dripping with oil.

My first question is: which does my car have, a fluid drive or an engine-fed torque converter? I'm thinking it has the engine-fed torque converter, because my engine oil level keeps going down. I have a shop manual, but according to it, the C-60 Windsor could have either a fluid drive or a torque converter.

My second question is: how can I get the unit out of the car without pulling the whole engine/tranny. I would like to spend as little money as possible on this fix, and I don't have an engine hoist.

Any info would be a GREAT help.

Thanks,

Tom

[Guest De Soto Frank]

This is one of the most tricky areas in old MoPar-dom...WHICH "Fluid Drive" does my car actually have ?!

First: what is the re-fill capacity on your engine at oil change time?(Often stamped on the dipstick)

Cars with "engine-fed" Fluid-Torque Drive have a refill capacity of 12 quarts or so, if you drain the convertor too.

Self-contained Fluid Torque (with its own sump, supposedly used only on V-8 Chrysler & De Soto) and plain-old Fluid Drive sixes have engine oil refill capacties of about five quarts, plus the filter.

The most positive way to tell engine-fed from regular fluid drive is to get under the car, remove the pans from the bottom of the bellhousings, and see if the clutch is mounted right against the back of the fluid coupling, all under one bell housing that bolts to the engine block and the transmission case; if the answer is "yes", then your car most likely has "Traditional" non-torque converter fluid drive, dating back to 1939.

If there are what look like TWO bell housings, one inside the other, or one behind the other, and there is a casting wall or bulkhead separating the fluid coupling from the clutch driving plate, then your car has the Fluid-Torque Convertor, and it's probably engine-fed.

Another confirming test would be to take a good finger-full of the oily goo leakage from the fluid coupling and give it a good sniff; do the same with the engine-oil on the dipstick: if the convertor is engine-fed, the oil leaked from the converter should have the same "gassy, slightly exhausty smell" just like the engine oil. Oil leaking from a non-engine fed fluid coupling will NOT have that "crankcase" smell...

Also, engine-fed torque converters have oil passages through the bell-housing and a variety of seals around the rear hub, just in front of the driving flange that the clutch cover bolts to - in other words, there's plenty of places for this outfit to spew oil from...

This is very similar to Plymouth Hy-Drive (also an engine-fed coupling), so if find a shop or mechanic that knows Hy-Drive, they can probably trouble-shoot your Windsor...

My 1950-'69 Chilton's Auto Repair Manual has very good service chapters on these trannies, if you have access to one of these books...

Good luck...

['53 Windsor]

Thanks Frank,

It looks like mine has an engine-fed torque converter, according to your descriptions. Thanks for all the help. I'll see if I can get the girl up and running.

-Tom

[Guest jbondaston]

I am trying to find out what fluid to put in my 49 chrysler new yorker torque converter no one seems to know is it engine oil or hydrolic oil

[Rusty_OToole]

Windsor what does it say on your shift quadrant? Fluid Matic Drive = fluid coupling, Fluid Torque Drive = torque converter.

If you have a 1953 you should have either the traditional fluid coupling, or the torque converter with the engine fed oil supply. The first was standard equipment on your car, the second optional at extra cost.

Roll back the carpet and look for an access plate on the right side of the transmission hump below the instrument panel. If it has the fluid coupling there will be an access plate, and below that a round plug in the bellhousing for access to the fluid coupling filler plug. No access means you have a torque converter.

In either case it sounds like the seal is shot. On the fluid coupling the seal can be replaced. On newer torque converters you have to get a new or rebuilt torque converter. I am not sure if your car has a replaceable seal or not.

From your description of the engine losing oil I believe you have the torque converter. If you had fluid drive and it was leaking the engine oil would not go down.

To change the torque converter you first have to take out the transmission then take off the bellhousing. You also have to support the rear of the engine with a jack and remove the rear motor mounts and crossmember. Then the torque converter comes off the back of the engine.

This is a hell of a job for an amateur mechanic. A garage should be able to replace the torque converter in a day if all goes well. With no hoist or air tools it will take longer.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

I am trying to find out what fluid to put in my 49 chrysler new yorker torque converter no one seems to know is it engine oil or hydrolic oil

Short answer: Use Tractor fluid, TDH type, ISO 32 grade. You can get this stuff at Walmart, auto parts stores, and farm supply stores. A gallon is a lifetime supply for most Chryslers. Use it in your transmission too. It costs less than motor oil and is the best oil for your tranny and fluid drive.

For an in depth discussion of the operation, care and feeding of the fluid drive system look up the threads in the Chrysler and Dodge sections of this board. There were some great information disclosed there, about a year and a half ago. The kind of inside dope you just can't find anywhere else.