Computer Codes

[radionut98]

I just found out that the big "Three" plus the small "Guys" won't sell their "codes' to<BR>back yard mechanics anymore. Sounds like we are being railroaded into using only dealers<BR>to work on our cars. Smacks of a monopoly<BR>system. Do you realize that because of this<BR>the small sho[p mechs (who only charge 35.00<BR>an hour) will be out of business (thats 50,000 or more) and we will be forced to pay the 65.00 to 95.00 an hour the dealers charge?? Also for an example Ford sells<BR>its spark plugs for $11.83 while you can get<BR>the same plug at NAPA, VIP, Advantage, for<BR>under 5.00 bucks?? Time we got congress<BR>or state to step in and undo this monpoly.<BR>Any comments? Loren

[geno]

I agree. I am not the DIYer that I once was and have not pursued understanding of OBD II, but other types of software and technologies are becoming easier to use. With the old OBD I(GM'S at least)codes were easy to read with out a scan tool and although you didn't have all the parameters to anylize, you could usally fix the thing 85 to 90 percent of the time. Even with harder to manage feed back carburators.

[NTX5467]

I can tell you that the media accounts of this are far overblown. <P>In the near past, GM did have some codes in their computers to keep generic scan tools from being able to read the data, but the dealers are supposed to reflash the computer -- for free -- on the affected vehicles. If a dealer refuses, just call the 1-800 customer assistance number and those people can get things straightened out with the service people.<P>As for some Mitsubishi engines, if the same engine is in a Chrysler, tell the scan tool it's hooked to a Chrysler and it will probably work. It seems that the import makes have used the apparent loopholes in the OBD II rules to keep generic tools from reading their codes.<P>I also guess that many people have forgotten that they can buy service manuals which have the codes. Then they just need the scanners to read them.<P>Now, what many people away from the dealership end of things seem to forget is that some codes do interact and can produce a false code situation. If you go to Jiffy Lube (for example) or AutoZone and they pull codes from your computer, replacing those particular parts doesn't necessarily mean the codes will not reset later--meaning you still have to know what causes a code to set rather than just starting to replace parts. Plus, after you pay that aftermarket repair shop to pull those codes (from what I understand, they will charge basically 1 dealership hour labor for that little deal), then take the list of suggested repairs to another repair shop or dealership, you will pay the diagnostic fee AGAIN as that technician will use his diagnostic tools to verify any suspected diagnosis situation before replacing any parts. So, that aftermarket repair shop just victimized you worse than any car dealer would have if you'd gone there first. I understand that AutoZone will do it for free, but they want to sell you the parts. <P>GM will sell their Tech2 diagnostic tools to the aftermarket repair shops too, but the employees will have to be well versed in what all of the in depth information that tool will supply really means. For example, you can watch the action of each sensor as it does its thing, pull a snap shot of when a code is set, and look at the operating parameters to see when the code set (some Corvette engines have not been warrantied due to that particular feature, as I understand). <P>Which gets to the other part of why that whole deal is overblown, in my opinion--the aftermarket or chain shops who are complaining probably do not have very many employees who FULLY understand what the scan tool might be telling them. If they don't have anyone really capable of doing emissions system repairs, then they don't need to be doing or trying to do those repairs. This is just common sense and also protects the customers. <P>After that shop puts on a bunch of aftermarket parts and the check engine light still comes on for the same reasons, your vehicle will still probably end up in the dealer's shop. It might cost a little more, but look at the time and other expense that would have been saved if that's where the vehicle ended up first.<P>For example, if the code for a malfunctioning EGR valve sets, they will replace the EGR valve without really noticing that the EGR passageways are clogged with excessive carbon deposits. Deposits due to dribbling fuel injectors or a leaking Central Point Injection unit, typically, or poor quality fuel. When the same code sets a while later, all of the easy money they made is gone as the second repair will be "no charge". In other words, these repair shops can easily get in over their heads with repairs they don't know how to do correctly and make their own problems later on all by themselves.<P>Then there was the Olds 88 that came into our shop with a Service Engine Soon light that kept setting an evap emissions code--although everything checked out fine. After about an hour or so of making sure things were as they should have been, the technician started to disassemble the inner front fender to check the cannister itself (as the paint texture on the fender indicated some repaint activity). The cannister was found to be cracked from a previous body shop repair, but the body shop did not replace it for some reason. It's these hidden situations that many fast service repair shops don't forsee taking up their valuable stall space. <P>The modern engine management computers are much more sophisticated than in prior times and will become more sophisticated in the future. Would you want someone with just first aid training doing heart surgery on you? That might be a little extreme, but there are some classes of repairs that need to be left to those qualified and trained to do them.<P>Now, although there are computers running things now, the same interactions of fuel and ignition still apply now as in the past. Each can act like the other in causing problems. Plus, a loose or malfunctioning gas cap can set a code too (from the evaporative emissions self checks).<P>On the surface, the media tried to make it another one of those "big guy vs. little guy" deals, but there is still nothing to prevent the little guy from doing anything they can afford to do. Plus, there is some wisdom in keeping people who don't know what they are doing from getting under your vehicle's hood--all in the name of consumer protections. In the mean time, the cheapest way out in the long run might be the more expensive in the short run.<P>As for owners still doing normal maintenance items that might be considered "tune up" items, you can still do that stuff with no problems -- unless you have problems with spark plugs in an aluminum head. The wires, cap, coil, filters, and other ignition items can still be replaced without dealership assistance. Some of the emissions items can be replaced too, for that matter, just as in the past. But, it's not 1970 any more, and the people who get very much deeper than that need to know what they are doing--for everyone's mutual benefit.<P>As for spark plugs, Loren, we sell AC-Delco platinum plugs all day long for $7.99 each (retail). I also discovered when I bought some Motorcraft Platinum plugs, for an Aerostar in our shop, from O'Reilly's (for about half that price) that these Motorcraft plugs only had ONE pad of platinum on them whereas the ACs had TWO--one on each side of the air gap. <P>It does pay to be an "informed shopper" in automotive issues just as in other aspects of business. Profits must be made to support business everywhere in the supply chain.<P>The argument about the car companies driving the smaller repair shops out of business has been around since the first computers appeared on cars in the later 1970s. My observation is that most of the independent repair shops closed due to their owner's retiring or becoming deceased, not from automotive repair issues. In other words, there are too few younger people desiring to get into the automotive repair business as there are easier ways to make a living in our computer age. The ones who do get into the business (who have grown up with computerized issues) and are well capitalized, tend to do well. <P>Sorry for the length, and maybe I'm a little biased after seeing all of the private shop and/or owner blunder fixes come into the dealership to be taken care of, but those are just some thoughts on that issue<P>NTX5467

[radionut98]

Thanks NTX5467, you are right on most points<BR>and I fully agree with your assessment, however, last year I took my Astro in (or<BR>rather had it towed in) to a GM dealer here<BR>in Brunswick, ME. They determined the fuel<BR>injector systerm was fully fouled and needed<BR>to be replaced. Okay, fine. Upon pulling the<BR>injector "they" said it was full or dirt and<BR>other debris. Put a new injector on it and<BR>told me it was fixed. Paid $900.00 total<BR>for repairs. Drive it approximate 93 miles<BR>and it quit. Towed it back to dealer. Said<BR>fuel injector was fouled beyond repair. Asked<BR>them if they checked the gas tank and fuel filter prior to putting in new injector.<BR>Answer was "NO" Common sense would have dictated that the dirt and debris had to come from the gas tank and that both the<BR>gas tank and fuel filter should have been cleaned and replaced prior to installing<BR>new injector. This time they charged only<BR>for replacement of filter and cleaning of<BR>tank. I was still out almost $100.00 for<BR>towing that I feel the dealer should have<BR>reimbursed me for due to "their foul-up"<BR>so maybe I am a little biased also about dealers. Loren

[NTX5467]

The injection unit you speak of is the "Central Port Injection" unit that is one big injector feeding the six smaller injectors for each cylinder. From what we've seen, the main issue is them "dribbling" with time and age, causing the EGR system to clog up and malfunction. If you'd done that repair on your own, or had an independent shop do it, you would have paid labor BOTH times on that repair, even though the part obviously was parts warrantied the second time. So, even though a secondary issue caused the second failure, it was still cheaper to let the dealership do it.<P>The $700.00 (approx) for that part is still cheaper than the $150.00 (approx) each for fuel injectors on the port fuel injection motors. Similarly, most of these things are covered under the factory emissions system warranty or extended warranties so the out of pocket expense to the customer is minimal (if they bought the longer term extended warranty). <P>At the present time, my regular driver is my '77 Camaro that I bought new. Now, it's not the most pristine thing around, but I do keep it reasonably maintained myself. With 564,000 miles on the original 305, I suspect it's already outlasted many imports famous for their long term durability. Your experiences might vary. I also have some other American cars too, most with higher mileages and still in good condition.<P>If I need a newer car for an out of town or weekend trip, I head to National or Thrifty or Dollar for a rent car. That $100.00 for a weekend rental is cheaper than car payments. Plus, if something breaks, I call somebody, but no problems have been encountered yet.<P>I suspect that even a lowly oriental import will have no trouble running farther than 100,000 miles with no trouble. I remember, as you probably do, when cars were worn out at 80,000 miles. I thought I was doing good to get a Chevrolet engine to run 200,000 miles, but I'm well past that now. Engine repairs? I put a Cloyes Plus Roller timing chain set in it at 92,000 miles when I replaced the timing chain, upgraded from 2bbl to 4bbl, and slightly upgraded the cam.<P>The modern cars might lack the heavy metal of prior decades, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "junk" or "throw aways". In some cases, we regularly see customers with 150,000+ miles on their late model GM cars. Probably for driveability issues, so we put new plugs, wires, and other ignition parts (which were still original in many cases) and things are fine again. And we do see a good deal of vehicles with fuel pump failures from not changing the fuel filters often enough.<P>The one area that many of the newer cars might be classed as "throw aways" is when they get seriously whacked in a wreck. All of that energy has to go somewhere so the basic body structure deforms. Less repairability in some instances (especially the smaller cars) when compared to something from the 1970s, for example, or more expensive repairability when it happens. Yet, I do know I'm safer in a later model car than in my more vintage ones. A later model car that gets better fuel economy with less required maintenance and markedly less exhaust emissions too.<P>I regret that you have such a low opinion of dealership service technicians. Granted, there are some good techs out in private shops who do a very good job for their customers. In fact, if you do have a private shop technician that is very good, you certainly need to take care of him as he's a vanishing breed. <P>One advantage those private shops have is that they can pick and choose their customers as they desire. They can also pick and choose the types of repairs they do. By doing things they are good at (maybe branching out in some cases to other areas) they keep their customers happy and build a loyal customer base and the profitability that comes from that. <P>At the dealership level, we have to be ready for anything. We are expected to "work miracles in an instant" sometimes too. If we make a customer mad, it could well be reflected in our CSI ratings with the manufacturer. As a result, we tend to get all of the other repair jobs the private shops or chain shops don't want to do--plus the repairs that owners tried to do and couldn't (loosing some of the parts in the process) complete for various reasons. It takes more money to support a dealership service department than it does a private repair shop too--hence, the higher labor rates and such. <P>In many cases, you still get what you pay for. If you look at the value you get from your private shop mechanic (who hopefully's been in business for a good while) at his labor rate versus what the dealership has to maintain as a matter of daily business at their higher labor rate (which is approved by GM as that what GM agrees to pay for warranty work), there is value in both places. The private shop can rely on AllData for their service information whereas the dealership has a direct line into GM Tech Assistance plus rooms full of current service manuals and other information via the Internet. In some cases, we have to use all of those resources too.<P>Key thing is that you are doing business where you are most comfortable, but at some time or another, a dealership experience can be the least expensive alternative in the long run.<P>Just some additional thoughts . . .<BR>NTX5467

[radionut98]

Again NTX I agree with most of your assessment but you have probably been around<BR>a long time (not saying your old om) heheh<BR>but at least you understand some of the problems we as drivers and users of facilities like yours go through. I took<BR>my son's 1999 F150 in last week for warranty work and a tune-up as he had 35000 miles<BR>on it. Should have been no longer than a<BR>2 hour wait to pull door panel off and replace magnetic door ajar switch and pull<BR>plugs and wires. 6 1/2 hours later I finally<BR>got out of there. Mechanic claimed the<BR>plugs were frozen in the head? after 35000<BR>miles? gimme a break. Problem as I see it<BR>like you said before no one wants to be<BR>a mech anymore and the ones that are just<BR>beginning are people that can't do or find<BR>work anywhere else. The dealer sends them to school and the school tells them what to look for when they get certain codes. They<BR>have no common sense to figure out that<BR>the errant code had to be caused by some<BR>other reason besides what the scope tells<BR>them. To cut it short I had to take the F150<BR>back the next day. The mech took out the wrong magnetic switch!! Loren (PS I won't<BR>say nuthing more)..

[Dave@Moon]

And people wonder why GM, Ford, Chrysler et al have a hard time selling cars that have earned poor reliability ratings! <P>Suprise $900 bills (about 4-5% of a typical new car's value, or 3 payments) don't make for happy consumers. <P><I> <B> And this is the "good" option????</I> </B>

[Guest]

I'm with Loren on this one... I don't personally own anything newer then '77, but drive 'new' cars daily and always end up getting the enjoyment of taking them into be fixed because I'm the guy of the clan..<P>Dealerships overcharge, lack 'common' sense, deny everything you suggest, and if it 'makes sense' they throw you some bs line about how it has to happen so many times before they'll replace anything.. Maybe I'm biased as well, but these companies expect you to pay "tens of thousands" of dollars on their car, and then are inept in correctly fixing it the first time. Give me a 30yr old car anyday, just don't give me some new pos use it and throw it away every 3-4 years... Maybe because it's all used up so to say, or maybe because you could of purchased another car with all the expense it's cost you through it's 'life'..<P>I'll stop now and await flames from GM, Ford and Chrylser workers..

[NTX5467]

When I quoted the parts price the other night, I was working from memory. When I checked it last night, the injector unit was right at $475.00 and the upper intake gasket would put things at the $500.00 level.<P>There are some good trade schools out there and we've been lucky to snag several of those younger guys. We've got another guy on our night shift (born in about '72) that I had to give a quick short course on '85 Chevy pickup electronic engine controls as "he didn't know about those older vehicles". But he was a part owner in a private and a chain repair shop, with several years experience with Nissan so he can figure things out.<P>Yes, there is a shortage of younger people who desire to be automotive technicians. What they don't realize is that in a larger metro market, they can easily crack the $50K/year range pretty easily after they get a few years experience. GM has a cooperative plan where the participant will come out with an Associate of Arts degree and a job as a trained technician, which is a pretty trick deal for someone so motivated. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are all pouring as much into the high school auto shop courses (when they are NATEF certified) to get the ball rolling in the high school vocational levels. Even the import makes are in the game too.<P>In most cases, the days of hiring someone off the street to work on cars are pretty much gone--unless they've got manufacturer credentials of courses passed and good work experience. But, it still happens in some cases.<P>And, of course, the next niche in the technician's world will be vintage cars, meaning "pre computer" era. Back when they knew what real sheet metal was. I'll tell you about my adventures trying to find some "distributor point grease" in the current auto supply world another time . . .<P>There's plenty of room in the automotive world for our more vintage vehicles and the newer stuff too, we just need to find that comfort zone.<P>Enjoy!<BR>NTX5467