24.Volt Experiment

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I desided to put in the Starter that I had rebuilt but before I completely disconnected the old starter I desided to try an experiment. I first hooked two 12.volt batteries in series to make 24.v and connected them to starter only with solenoid and ignition connected to 12.v. When I tryed this I found that the engine turned at what I would call a Normal speed (as compaired to later smallblocks) but the solenoid chattered. (guess the bendix thought the engine was running, at that higher speed, so it was bouncing in and out) So I connected 24.v to the solenoid also and everything worked great. Since the engine started so quickly the starter and solenoid didn't have time to get hot from the higher power applyed. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So, I then put in the overhauled starter and solenoid and it turned the engine over a little faster than the old one. I guess it will have to do, since I can't find a 6.v starter to try and don't what the pay the price of having one built. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And I'm getting tired of crawling under the dang thing anyway. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I considered getting a 16.Volt Battery with 12.Volt Tap but then realized that I would need a Generator or Alternator that puts out about 19.Volts (to charge battery) Or get a Voltage-Multiplier circuit to increase it to 19.Volts. The Multipliers are avalible but expensive. I then considered building my own, which would be a fun project but would take some time and effort.

Aah, Decisions, Decisions. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Has anyone tryed a 16.V battery in a Race car (which is what they were designed for) Or any other cars or trucks? I was wondering if they have a shorter life, since the six 12.Volt cells will be discharging and charging at a different rate than the other two cells?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

If anyone wishes to try the 16.Volt Battery, Jeg's is One source.

The Voltage-Multiplier is listed on right side of this page. They call it a 'Step-up Box'.

The 3 Post version is the one I was thinking about trying.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1648&prmenbr=361

[55PackardGuy]

I "experimented" this fall jumping a 6-volt system from a 12-volt battery. It didn't seem to increase cranking speed much. I'm wondering if I did it wrong. It's a positive ground system, and I hooked the jumper wires positive-to-positive and negative-to-negative between the battery terminals on both vehicles. Should I have bypassed the 6-volt battery and run one cable from negative 12-volt to the 6-volt starter and the positive to ground? This would get 12 volts to the 6-volt starter, but what are the chances of frying it??? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[MBL]

I have run a 12V battery to a 6V starter for years and never had a problem with butning anything up. It just spins faster. I have this setup on my Model T Hot Rod.

Tim

MBL

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, On a 6.V system, Just make sure you connect the 12.V battery only to the starter and solenoid, Not the rest of electrical system. Remove the main feed wire to system, which is usually connected at solenoid terminal, and connect it to 6.V battery or to a voltage reducing resistor. 6.Volt Light bulbs, Radio, etc. will be damaged with 12.volts applyed.

[55PackardGuy]

Thanks. I'm going to try that. The starter cranks woefully slow now. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Mr.Pushbutton]

55 Packard guy states "Thanks. I'm going to try that. The starter cranks woefully slow now". A few things to check first. Are you using the flat braided battery "ground" cable (pos.gnd. in '55) between the battery and the engine block, or did Billy Bob and Cooter put an off the shelf, modern car type Wall-napa-zone-mart Round cable on 'er in place of the flat braid cable? that matters!

has the starter been cosmetically restored ( I have seen starters where current flow to the "grounding" side of the starter motor was impeded by lots n' lots of pretty paint work). Has the soleniod been checked and eliminated as a problem? If the answer to all the above is NO, get thee to a competent starter motor rebuilder. There is no reason a 12V starter motor should not crank the engine with more than enough speed to prime a dry fuel pump (although I like to use an electric pump for this and save my CCA for starting the engine) and start the engine. I have fixed 6V systems for people who claim "those 6 volt cars never cranked over anyway", again, a false "truth". A healthy starter motor, ample, proper battery cables, a healthy battery of sufficent CCA rating, a properly functioning charging system (we're talking a "whole patient" approach here) and most 6V systems will turn over just fine. 12V systems are easier yet!.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, I think ALL 6.volt Starters are Too Weak. That's the main reason they went to 12.volts, with the lower 6.volts Current had to be very high (too High) to get the Power needed.

If you deside to use a voltage reducer, This is a good one, that I have used before. The one ending in number 606U is the best for 6.volt system, since it can handle up to 20. Amps, on 12.volt battery. Number 181W is a 8. Amp max unit.

Be sure to mount it where it will get good ventilation, since they can get pretty hot if everything is turned on (lights, heater, etc).

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/ProductDisplay/s-10101/p-1569/c-10101

[Jack Harlin]

Are you saying fix a system that isnt broke by trading it for another problem?

Mr. Pushbutton gave the solution if a problem exists, turning over too slow. I think after your modifing it this problem fixed with a band aid is going to in time show up & fail. As far as not having a spinning starter, Packard had a gear reduction starter on the 9 main bearing straight eights for more tourk to the heavy flywheel & bearings, esp. with fridged temperatures. You could bearly hear it turn over. So much for having to have a fast spinning starter. Jack

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Hey Jack, If I see a problem I try to Fit it.

6.V Starters have been a problem on every car I've had, that had 6.v system.

And my Father told me that he always had the same problem.

I've even tryed running Two 2/0 Cables to each side of battery, but can't tell much difference.

Yes, there is a posibility of shortening the Starters life some, but if you can't get the dang things started, What ya gonna Do!

[Guest Albert]

I have been running the 54 Patrician (9 main) last summer and never had a problem with it starting, When I was at the Nationals in Toronto a few people had thought that I was running a 12V battery because of how quickly it started. I'am using 2/0 welding cable, and also have a 4 pole Starter, I have noticed Packard used both 2 pole and 4 pole in there cars over the years. It also helps when the motor is tuned up properly, then the motor will assist the starter helping it to turn faster.

[Guest]

My '47 Super Clipper with 356 9 main engine and gear reduction starter and turns over very slow with the 6 volt setup but starts every time almost instantly. I see no need for a 12 volt battery.

[Jack Harlin]

Albert & Clipper 47

Exactly. That was my point. When every thing is working like it is intended & expected to do, the fact its only 6 Volt that is causing the trouble is wrong.

Doesnt matter to me if an owner likes to tinker around with sound & proven engineering & change it to be different is OK. But to tell others the 6 volt starters are no good is wrong thing to do. I expect to get hammered on this but there are too many 6 volt starters in use that give no trouble. Jack

[Guest Albert]

I have started my cars in -20 weather, pump it a couple of times and turn the key and it comes right to life. I had even left the battery in the car for 3 months before I started it last and it still started without a proplem.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Rick wrote:

"...That's the main reason they went to 12.volts, with the lower 6.volts Current had to be very high ...".

The reason the auto companies went to 12 volt was SOLELY for the purpose of cutting 50% of the wire out of the car. A significant cost savings. Most all 6v systems are based on prewar technology. Terrific advances were made in electronics during the war years but was not applied until the horse power revolution of 1955. By 55 all of the left over war stock was used up and it was time for a change and so the 'new tech' of the times (learned out of WWII) were applied. If these new advances had been applied to the 6v system and the companies were not bent on obsolecence then we would not be discussing 12v at all.

Modern problems with 6v. systems has more to do AVAILABILITY of parts and batteries with enuf amps to kick the starter. Most all 6v batteries i know of are manufactured for Ag equipment which is usualy older 4 cyl low compression engines so the battery output is not what it should be for bigger engines.

ANYONE find a 6v battery with a warranty > 3 years?????

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

try connecting TWO GOOD 6v batteries in parallel (retaining 6 volts) and give it a try.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, they found that the High Current required to improve a 6.V system, Also required increasingly larger Wire sizes. (in wiring harness, as well as the Starter). Current Requirement was the Controling factor, tho. (Increase Voltage, Reduce Current)

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Connecting batteries in Parallel will Not Increase the amount of Current to Starter. That is controlled by the internal resistance of the starter, it's terminal resistance, cable resistance, etc. Parallel batteries will Only Increase the time before discharge of the battries.

[Constellation]

Thats the major problem today with 6 volt batteries unless you want to pay Big $$$ for a re-pro Battery. Most of the 6 Volt batteries available today off the shelf are meant really for agricultural equipment. The Battery that will turn over a 4 cyl. Ford 8N Tractor will not have the same umph to turn over a Packard Straight 8 or even a smaller Ford V-8.

The fact about switching from 6 to 12 Volts is correct. The wire only has to be 1/2 the size with 12 Volts than with 6 Volts, because you have 1/2 the Amperage. Remember power accessories like power windows, convertible top pumps and power seats were offered long before the switch to 12 volts in the mid 1950's. However in all due fairness, a 12 Volt system handled the starting better than a 6 Volt system with higher compression engines that were being offered by 1953. Thats why GM went to 12 volts with Caddy, Buick and Olds. By using the correct wire size and 12 volts they could suppy ample current to the starters for adequate starter operation with these engines. Power accessories were really a side issue.

By 1956, all the major automakers were switched to 12 volts as it became a selling point. 12 Volts also did wonders for starting the older style engines such as the 235 Chevy 6's and the like.

The biggest improvement to charging systems was the advent of the Alternator. Chrysler started that in the early 1960's, actually 1961, I believe as an option, unless I am wrong.

Bob

[joe kastellic]

I know of some guys who use 8 volt batterys for a 6 vilt system, and they say that its the best of both worlds, I have always like to convert 6 volt to 12 volt, because I have worked on the 12 volt systems all my life, and feel comfortable with type of system. Joe

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Optima makes a 6.v battery that is Very Good. (High Current capibility and long life) The only problem is that it doesn't look like an original battery so if your battery mounts under hood then it doesn't look correct. I've seen a battery box that you put the optima in, that makes it look original but have not found who made it. (I saw the box on the DIY '38 Packard restoration tape) I checked the DIY website and did an Internet search, but No Joy.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (snip) I've seen a battery box that you put the optima in, that makes it look original but have not found a who made it. (I saw the box on the DIY '38 Packard restoration tape) </div></div>

Like the host Mark Lambert said innumerable times, (paraphrase) "If you want to learn more, just logon to DIYNetwork.com...". However, when I did that to find out the vendor for the cast plastic system, there was nothing. So, I emailed their support and the answer I got was basically, "can't help you." <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I finally carefully read the "sponsors" in the credits at the end of that episode and there they were. You might try the same tactic.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Thanks, Craig, I'll try that.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Brian

One of the main reasons the Older Starters appear to be a Problem area to me, is that when I see Later High compression engines (smallblocks & bigblocks) turning over at 3 or 4 as fast as the the older ones, that just seems to be a problem that needs to be fixed. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Sure, I could live with it the way it is, but if I can improve it, Why Not! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> To me that's part of the Fun of this Hobby.

[Mr.Pushbutton]

My '56 400 has 10:1 compression and it turns over fast 'n fine. The "exact (vintage) appearance" replica batteries that are offered these days are only so-so battries, IMHO. The optima batteries are excellent--they pack tons of CCA in a tight little package. I think the best thing to do there is to buy the "exact

appearance" battery, use it till it dies (usually about 2 years in a northern climate collector car) then gut it and put the optima core inside (there's ample room). Drain the acid into a safe container for responsible disposal, neutralize the inside with baking soda and water, then melt the tar around the top edges to remove the top/plate core. 86 the plates, and use a marine adaptor (wing nut hole to top post style) and re-pot the top back on. I've seen Devcon 2 part rubber products used for this, or you can just use roofing tar--like the OEM. You'll have a kick-ass, original battery that lasts about 10 years.. This is slightly unpleasant work that is best done outdoors, and any and all safety precautions should be taken.

I guess B.H. and I are odd men out with the "old wives tale club" re:6V and perhaps even early 12V applications. As I stated in my original post, I've fixed many a slow-no cranking 6V car to ample cranking speed by getting everything back to square one, proper operating order as built. If 6V was that messed up an idea, the US auto industry would have gone over to 12V by the early to mid 1920's. The higher compression engines of the 50's, and the production costs were the main reason 12V was adapted. I worked for a collector who, at his peak owned 240 cars, and he really liked 30's,40's and early 50's cars. We always hated looking under the hood and finding someone else's "better engineering" and the time we had to spend figuring out the method to their madness (there was a Pierce Arrow that defied description!). More often than not, we put it back to original, with all components operating to optimal condition. They cranked over fine, started and ran as well as the health of the long block would allow (they had to be pretty bad before the $$ for a rebuild would flow).

I said it before, and I'll say it again, if your 12V V8 Packard does not turn over fast enough, the fack that it is a 12V system is not your problem. You have a weak link (or compound weak links) in your battery/cables/soleniod/starter/charging system and it's telling you about the problem.

One thing I can not stress enough is to look at the Ground cable and make certain it is of the flat braided variety, as built. I have seen many "them 6V cars never started" cars with 12V auto parts store generic, round cables where the (higher current capacity)flat braided cable WAS. This is wrong, this is bad. 6V batteries are not only used in agricultural equipment, but are still used in material handling equipment as well.It's a free country, It's your car. Do as you please. While you are at it, write up a suppliment to the shop manual outlining all of your mods, so the next guy has something to go on.

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Oh yes, another thing--you can't compare the speed of the starter motor of a '55-'56 to anything made after '56. You can't compare it to your modern car's starter, or your 196X small block powered chevy. With everything in order, the '55-'56 starter will crank fast enough to prime the fuel system, and start the engine. Job done. Design criteria met.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Man, When I Pull these Guys Chain, I really get a Responce! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

MrPushbutton,

That's a good Idea about making a battery box from an old battery. I had thought of that, but none the old 6.v batteries I have are large enough. Maybe I could make one from a 12.v battery, with 6.v Optima inside. That would really confuse 'um, wouldn't it. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just joking. If I can find a larger case, I will surely try that and let you know.

Brian,

I'm not presently having any starting problems. The one I was having a big problem with, the '29, has already been switched to 12.volts with a Voltage-reducer for system. It starts great now.

If you guys ever try a higher voltage on starter, then you will see how much faster and easyer a cold engine will start and will know what I'm talking about. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Mr.Pushbutton]

A '29 has an Owens starter, does it not? if so, you can't print enough money to get a new field or armature, should the old one burn out. The're your dice--roll 'em.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Luckily I have a spare starter for the '29. I first tryed changing the starter when I found that it was turning over so slowly. It just won't start on 6.volts, without cranking for a long time, when it's cold. But then runs great after starting.

(I was wearing out the starter, trying to get it started anyway, so thought 12.volts and a fast start would be better)

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Hey, Stirring the Pot is Sometimes Fun. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I would like to get more info on the 16.Volt battery tho. I may never use one but, If nothing else, it's something I know nothing about and would like to know about. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I may have to call the people at New Castle, who are the people that make the TurboStart Brand Batteries. Never can tell when one may come in handy. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Presently my '56 is starting great on 12.v, but there was a time, when I first got it, when it had a vacuum leak that I couldn't find, that I really needed a faster starter to get it started, so I could find the leak. Faster starters really help when there is a problem to find and fix.

[Mr.Pushbutton]

BH-remember that the Optima is a 10 year battery, so the inital cost justifies the trouble/expense. Yes, all Packard V8 cars were shipped with a Willard brand battery. The cases for the group 60 batteries pretty much look the same, one could fake the Willard logo on the computer and stick it on the optima-filled case. John

[Guest imported_Speedster]

And the price of Optima Batteries has come down some in the last year since they now have competition from other companies, like Exide with their 'Orbital' battery, which is the same technology as the Optima. They only had a 12.volt version when I checked, tho.

Has anyone tryed the Orbital? The only place I've seen it for sale is at National Tire & Battery and they don't advertise it much.

[Guest JT]

I've had an optima battery for 5 years with no problems. When I first picked one up I thought this thing will never start my car (due to it's light weight). Mine is under the seat so I'm not concerned with the look. It was $90 new so it looks like I will get my moneys worth.

[Mr.Pushbutton]

Go to www.dcbattery.com/optima2.html or http://www.batteryweb.com/optima.cfm to see the size/voltage/cold cranking amps of the optima batteries. BH, you seem to have some fiberglass moulding experience--this could be a nice side line for you. The optima battries are smaller than lead/acid battries, and fit easily into the old cases. They have excellent CCA ratings, and that is what gets the job done!

[Twitch]

I recently upgraded to the Optima from the next highest output Kragen battery for my Eldo. The old one was like 22 months old and went bad. The Optima has the most juice of any battery I've seen. Like 770 cca-cold cranking amps and 1150 amps. I had an alternator go bad on a trip to Sacramento. I was going up I-5 about equal with Bakersfield to the east when it crapped out. I turned around and got all the way to Burbank before the battery ran out of volts to power the computer to manage the engine. This baby has a great reserve capacity!

CCA should roughly equal your CID to be effective. If you have electronic goodies- and what car doesn't?- go higher. I have made a point of buying the most powerful battery I could for every car I've ever had. The point being that once a batt goes bad there is so much reserve left in it and you may need the reserve power to make it home or to civilization or just that one more start to get to the battery store!

I used to sell Gould-made batteries in the 70s and have seen it all. Some batteries will go bad in 3 weeks and another will last 6 years. Some get huge acid corrosion build up outside and all over the terminals yet continue to perform fine. Others will not function with a just bit of it on the post and so on.

When my old battery was done for a guy with a month-old Optima was there and got a new one since it was gone too. Warranties don't mean much as far as actually meaning you can expect a 7-year battery to last 7 years. If it lasts 4 years you go back to the store and they pro-rate it and put the amount of months=$ left on it against the new batt. This way you are a locked in as a customer.

My Packard has an Interstate 665cca battery! I see the logic too. The generator needs like 10 miles of higher RPM charging to replace the original starting discharge. So drive around a low speed in your area and start the car several times and your down on the juice. The generator is only putting out like 30-35 amps anyhow compared to an alternator's 60+ so notwithstanding the ability to charge at idle the alternator will recharge your batt faster.

Our piddling around in 6 volt drivers with powerful batteries allows us to never be on the edge. We can charge them up at home to replace drained juice from a 10 mile around-town trip with 5 start-ups.

Every time I've gotten a new starter on any car I could immediately tell the quicker turning RPM too. We don't notice over time as the thing begins to spin a bit slower until it is barely revolving one day and we recognize it.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, they are starting to use AGM Technology (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries in Everything. (boats, airplanes, motorcycles, wheelchairs, etc.)

In another 10 years it may be hard to find a lead-acid battery.

[Twitch]

BTW- for those of with 22/23 series which use the 19" X 4" skinny batteries, the Interstate 6v with 615cca costs just $108- about the same as the Optima- but it is not a replica battery. There's Interstate dealers all over the country. interstatebatteries.com to find a dealer.

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Craig

I checked the '38 restoration tape but you had edited out all the credits so couldn't find any Info on Battery Box conversion. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If you happen to replay that episode anytime soon, please check if there is any info about who made it. Thanks,

[WCraigH]

The vendor of the faux "Battery Box" wherein one can put an Optima 6V battery is:

Quail Services "Disguise Battery"