Guest Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Since I am in the process of rebuilding my 56 374CID engine I decided to send my oil pump to PI for the modification. I guess at the time I did not realize I was going to lose my Vacumm pump in the process. Now I am not so sure I want to use this modified pump (I have another un-modified pump) and find a way to achieve additional vacuum or use an un-modified pump. Can others who have done the PI Modification tell me what they have done about replacing the vacuum pump if anything. Would a different fuel pump with Vacuum work and if so what model. I plan on using the car for driving in all kinds of weather so I hate to have windshield wipers that don't work effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCraigH Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 There is a commercial electric replacement for the vac wipers: New Port Engineering Electric wipers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 I bought these and am VERY happy with them. I got a two speed motor, but you can get them washer adaptability also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
52deluxe Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 i just sorta had a thought "if its dumb let me know" wont these vacume wipers run on positive air pressure? if so using a small airpump and tank would be fairly easy. i have a extra wiper motor for my packard laying around ill fidle with it in the next day or so and see. just a thought tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Not sure they would work on positive air presure without modification. I believe one would have to change the one way valves to make this work but its an idea. The answer seems to be either the electric wiper conversion or finding a dual action fuel pump that works with the V-8 engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Larry, the double-action fuel pump used on AMC products with the Packard engine in 55-56 will work as a fuel pump for you.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 thanks Randy I will look into that. Since some other members are interested in the PI Oil pump re-work I let you all know the part numbers if I find a suitable Fuel Pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 I am also checking on Hudson's with Packard Engines since I know some late Hudsons had Packard V-*'s. I am told they used a dual action fuel pump with vacuum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 When u get the PI pump returned to u we would like to see pics of the bottom plate (direct bottom face view) that they add and of the wobble joint area near the top. Also a measurement of the height of the locating dowl that the input shaft issues thru. Did the shaft have alot of back and forth shake to it before u sent it??? Is the pump a plugged pump or open port pump??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Larry, sorry I wasn't clear enough. When I said AMC cars I meant Nash and Hudson autos equipped with a Packard V8. That is 1955 and 1956 only as for as I know.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 As requested here are some pictures of the 55 - 56 oil pump with the PI conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Additional Picture. Pump had vacuum removed and plate added. Pump shaft was also modified with a bearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Larry, does the driving shaft extend down into the plate with a bushing installed there?YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 looking at the very BOTTOM of the bottom plate can u see the end of the shaft???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Larry Bull wrote:"Pump shaft was also modified with a bearing."does that mean the bearing in the bottom plate or did they also install a bearing in the upper part of the pump ABOVE the gears to tighten up the clearence due to wear at that point??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 i would like to discuss the pump with u voice-to-voice while u have the pump in your hand to look at. If u will, send me your area code and phone number and a time that is convenient for u. PackardV8@Juno.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 The bearing is on the upper shaft only. There is not one on the bottom plate. My understanding is that one of the big problems was the pump sucking air through the shaft as it wears. Installing a sealed bearing is designed to prevent that and I would assume the heavy duty bottom plate adds a lot more support to the pump holding the gears properly aligned. I haven't pulled the bottom plate and looked but I will do that in the next couple of days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Hear is another picture showing the bottom plate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I also have a fuel pump coming that has both fuel and vacuum. I am told this was used on a 56 Hudson with a Packard V8 engine and should work to provide vacuum for the wipers since the pump conversion gives up the vacuum pump attached to the oil pump. I understand the pump is made by AC but am not sure. Since the pump arm looks a little different than the carter pump I won't know if this will work till I get it and attempt to try it. I will let everyone know how this works out once I have had a chance to test it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 The factory pump used a long nearly streight arm. Some replacement pumps use a shorter arm with about a 45 degree bend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 The '56 Hudson equipped with the V8 used a Carter combination pump, P/N M 2256S on the Hornet. On the Hornet Special for '56, there also was utilized a combination pump with filter/magnatrap P/N M2433S. The equivalent AC pump for the M2256S is AC 4293 while the equivalent AC pump for the M2433S is AC 4377. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Brian. Look closely at the first pic of post 03/24/04 06:23 PM. U will see that the flex collar on the shaft is nearly setting down into the bore of the locating dowel. That means that the shaft is extending into the lower plate that PI adds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 Greetings, All,I'm new to this group, but have been working on Studebaker and Packard V8s for forty years. Thanks for all the info, photos and opinions on the Packard V8 oil pump modifications.Would be best to confirm if the Packard International oil pump rebuild does in fact press the drive shaft past the end of the gear and into a recess in their thicker bottom plate. (BTW - a somewhat less-than-aerospace-quality-looking piece.)If so, I would be concerned this "shortening" of the drive shaft would cause the intermediate shaft to barely engage in the bottom of the distributor. Many of the intermediate shafts I see come out of engines to be rebuilt show some drive pressure wear on the edges of the flats. If the drive force is concentrated nearer the end of the shaft, with less bearing area, it would wear faster, at the very least. Failure would be worst case.I am in the midst of rebuilding four oil pumps right now. One is out of a '56J Studebaker Golden Hawk and had no vacuum pump and a thicker bottom plate OEM. I am investigating the cost of having new longer drive and idler shafts manufactured, as well as new bottom plates with a bronze bushing for the drive shaft.thnx, jv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 56J:Look closely at the picture attachment in the 03/24/04 06:23 PM post above.The original wear on the edge of the flats u mentioned starts about 5/8 of an inch down the shaft from the top. This typical of at least 5 other pumps i have seen. MEANING that there is plenty of flat above the original wear pattern to play with. Not sure why Packard allowed for so much extra shaft at the top but it sure seems to be there nonetheless. When i modified my pump i took several measurements and made numerous mock-ups as i progressed and could determine no operational problems with extending the shaft lower into the lower plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 56J:Welcome to the Packard Discussion Forum. Keep us posted on your progress. The oil pump issue with the V8's has been a very active issue with this forum for many years now. ONe of the BIGGEST UNanswered questions thus far is WHY does the pump wear so prematurely??? Feel free to contact me anytime for discussions. PackardV8@Juno.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1955packard Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 Larry,I have just returned from the 27th Annual Saledo, TX Regional Packard Meet. One of the attendees is a Mr. Bob Aller. Bob was an engineer with Packard in the ?50?s and is considered by some as the Packard expert on Packard?s in general and especially on the V8?s and Twin-Ultramatics. Bob has told us that the oil pump problem arose very early in ?55 and the cause was found by one of the Packard technicians here in Dallas. Hot weather accentuates the problem due to the thinning of the oil and Dallas has an abundance of hot weather.Bob?s solution to the problem is to reinforce the top drive bushing of the pump. He agrees that the original bushing was undersized in the pump and wears out prematurely allowing for air to be sucked into the top of the pump shaft. He does not believe that removal of the vacuum pump solves anything and only creates additional wiper problems. I am not sure exactly all the things he does to the pump but I know the bushing length is increased for more support.Bob has been rebuilding these pumps for years. If you send him a complete core, I believe, he charges around $125 for the conversion. If you have any questions related to the V8 Packard engine or the Twin-Ultramatic give him a call at 816-781-0029 (1997 PAC Roster). He has always been willing to assist Packard owner?s in solving problems.Of course, as with most things, Bob?s is only one solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted April 5, 2004 Share Posted April 5, 2004 1955Packard, perhaps I am just misreading your post or not understanding it, but you say <span style="font-style: italic">He agrees that the original bushing was undersized in the pump and wears out prematurely allowing for air to be sucked into the top of the pump shaft. </span> I do not think there is ANY bushing in the pump and that is part of the problem. Mr. Aller supplies a long bushing to compensate for the wear on the casting. In reading the parts book Group 5.1200 thru 5.1305 I find no listing of a bushing either. Not being critical of you, but we have discussed this problem for so long that we need to be very precise in our descriptions and explanations. If I am in error please correct my impressions.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Brian, Terrill Machine in DeLeon Texas rebuilt my oil pump and did the same as Mr. Aller. They line-bored the casting, installed a bushing, installed new gears and surface-ground the face-plate. At the time they charged $75.00 and I thought it was a decent price. They quit doing this a couple years after I had mine done and I don't know if they are willing to tackle that again.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted April 6, 2004 Share Posted April 6, 2004 Brian,What kind of shape is that Exec in? I've always thought the Executive was an interesting model, and would like to know if there are restoreable ones around. BTW I looked for Bob Aller in the Kymes book and he doesn't appear in the index. Doesn't mean he wasn't important, just that he wasn't mentioned in that history of the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 TO all readers:As issued from the factory the pump had NO bushing. The FACTORY bearing surface of the pump that the shaft rides on is more correctly refered to as a shaft bore. MOREOVER, i have never seen a bushing installed in ANY CAST IRON factory oil pump for the shaft to turn in. None in Chev 55-89, 88 Ford 2.0 (both Al and CI pumps), Indian, Cushman, Opel, among many others.No doubt, that the installation of a bushing IS a good retro-remedy for the WEAR PROBLEM! BUT, i am NOt conviced tha the bore of the pump is too skimpy for the application:Let us consider a comparison of the Packard pump to Chev small block pump that has proven it self infallible for nearly 5 decades.:Chev / Packgear length 1.375/ 1.625 dia 1.75 / 1.375 teeth 12 / 10shaft dia. .487 / .496shaft bore length 1.562 / 1.50u can do your own numerical comparisons any way u want to with the above data. According to my analysis there is less than a 3% overall difference in the bearing surface of the pumps. With less than a 3% difference i must choose to believe that the bore of the Packard pump is certainly adequate to the extent that it should last as long as the Chevy pump. Therefore i am suspicious that there is either a materials incompatibility between the shaft and the bore OR a misallignment problem of the pump to the block. Since Aller was a Zone rep HE probably KNOWS what the problem IS. If he was a Packard engineer then he DEFINATLEY knows what the problem is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Clarification: The design, configuration or anything else u want to call it of the Packard oil pump and the way it is drivien is nearly identicle to many other engines over the last 50 years. Other than dimensional differences i see NO over all difference in the small block Chev design (PROVEN FOR 5 DECADES!!) and the Packard design. The CAUSE of the Packard premature wear is still unsolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 The extra load of running the vacuum pump probably also contributes to the premature wear of the shaft and bore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55PackardGuy Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Thanks for your reply, BrianIt's kind of a sad yet very interesting story about the Exec. Sounds like a beautiful car that "might have been." I agree about the '55 Clipper trim, but I'm prejudiced, because we had a '55 Blue on Blue with the curved side two-tone from when I was a kid. My dad said the transmission started giving "fits" early on with that car, (well before 50,000 miles) and if he wasn't a mechanic with the resources and skills to fix it himself and keep it going, we might not have kept that car too long. But I think it was his first new car and he was on a "mission." We kept that car in driveable and quite presentable condition until the 1980's! Then, it was sold to someone local who wanted to restore it. It had been sitting outside for years, but in a relatively protected spot (right next to the '55 400 we had acquired in the 70's. The report we got back from the buyer is that the car made it almost to his home several miles away, but the fuel system clogged up (obviously a lot of crud in there). Never heard if he got it restored. The 400 made it several hundred miles to Detroit Lakes under its own power, driven by the new owner, who insisted on trying to drive it straight home after he bought it! I'm pretty sure he got it restored.I just ran across some nice pictures of the Clipper as it looked in the 80's just before it was sold. I really want to get them posted here, but I don't have a scanner yet. One of these days...That title on your Exec alone is a great keepsake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 I'm meeting with a machinist friend Sat to discuss the possibilities of making a longer shaft, thicker plate, installing a bushing, etc. He has free time lately and maybe can help me out. Terrill said he installed new gears - they must be fairly common - I can't believe he hobbed them out himself.I think Terrill had a machine set up for line-boring the pump body casting but amount of business didn't warrant tying up a machine.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1955packard Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 I have just talked to Mr. Bob Aller this afternoon about the oil pump problem. His opinion is from the perspective of a Packard Engineer. The last job with Packard was as the Zone Parts and Service Manager in Saint Louis. Bob worked the problem when it originally arose, and a solution was finally found. The Service Rep. at the Dallas Dealership solved the problem. The various previous fixes tried by Packard in ?55 including the tube mod. and pressure valve were an attempt to fix the problem. The fix wasn?t found until too late in the year to get a Service Bulletin out or new parts designed and in service before Packard closed shop. As far as the steel plate, misalignment of the shafts, and other areas of discussion, Bob believes these to be non-issues. He replaces gears only if they are pitted from rust, worn or show excessive wear. ?The original pump when it was brand new worked very well. It was only after mileage wear that it developed a problem.? ?The vacuum pump played no part in the pump failure and should never be removed?. (Bob Aller).Yes, the original pump did not have a separate bushing; it used the housing for its bearing surface. This is the problem with the original pump, not enough shaft support allowing for excessive wear. With the wear comes the air. No wear no air.Bob has rebuilt over 100 units and has not had one pump failure to date. This doesn?t prove there is no possibility of additional things that could be done, only that they are not necessary. Bob is available to discuss this with anyone who is interested and would like to call him. (Bob Aller 816-781-0029)CC: Bob Aller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardi Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 1955 Packard -Many thanks for posting the solution to the vexing oil pump problem. I have just purchased a mint 55 400 with 50,000 miles on the clock That was about the time the pump began to fail on two of my previous Packards. I'll get a rebuild before putting the car on the road. My hope is to use it for extensive vacation traveling. I had been concerned about oil pressure failure, but this post puts my mind at ease. Thanks again, and I'll be in contact with Mr. Aller shortly.Happy Easter to one and all! Christos Aneste! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 1955Packard wrote:" ..."This is the problem with the original pump, not enough shaft support allowing for excessive wear". ...Bob has rebuilt over 100 units and has not had one pump failure to date. ... Bob is available to discuss this with anyone who is interested and would like to call him. (Bob Aller 816-781-0029)"Thank You for the excellent post and effort! I too contacted Mr Aller by phone about 3 years ago concerning this problem. I'll try again.ALSO see my post above: #215884 - 04/06/04 07:02 PM, using a well known other brand of pump for bearing surface comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 I wish I had started this post before I sent my pump to PI, the information different posters have provided has been invaluable. Since I have a second pump in my old engine I think I'll send that to Bob for a rebuild and keep the PI Modified pump as a spare, that way I won't have to deal with the loss of the vacuum pump. Looking at all the posts on this subject leads me to believe that the problem is sucking air through the pump shaft. Since it appears to me that the shaft alignment is not perfect I can see why excessive wear would result over time at that point. Hope everyone has a great Easter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 According to a voice-to-voice telephone conversation i had with PI (i also called Mr. Aller the same day) about 3 years ago PI stated that they do NOT rebuild the pump but only add the extra "bushing" (ergo more "shaft support"?) to the bottom of the pump. However, since no changes are made to the rest of the pump then the PI version would not correct for any excessive wear in the pump as RECEIVED by them. So, the PI version DOES add more "support" to the shaft but only in a different manner than Allers version as i understand it which also adds "support" to the shaft.BOTH of these modifications are what i made to my pump.The shaft in my pump has BRONZE bushings (WITH OIL GROOVES)supporting the shaft at BOTH extreme ends of the shaft as is mechanically feasible to accomplish. THE QUESTION yet to be answwered is HOW MANY MILES will this be good for?????? Thus far, i have only put about 10K to 12K miles on it under high speed interstate driving.SO, in my estimation of the oil pump problem (based on the 'shaft support claim') it should then be prudent to assume that the pump needs all it can get in terms of "shaft support" and that maybe a PI fix AND an Aller fix is needed espeicaly if "shaft support" is an issue with these pumps. In view of the wide sweeping problem this has been i certainly can find OTHER methods to drive the windshield wipers.What we have here is too general of a description of the problem that being of "shaft support". Does that mean not enuf bearing surface for the shaft????? (see my chevy/pack pump comparison above). OR does it mean the location of the support relative to the pump (one at the bottom and top vs increasing only the top with NO bottom of the shaft support).I can certainly accept either or both methods depending on how many miles the fix will last. Any testimonials out there with either the PI or Aller modifications that have ran successfuly for 60K miles or longer????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1956Packard Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 Just to put a cautionary flavour to this....My '56 400 with 59,000 miles had the typical valve train noise. Last summer I pulled the pump and sent it to Mr. Aller for R&R. At the same time I replaced the main and rod bearings (can tell you the final clearances if wanted).Now upon cold start up I get about 40 psi pressure. After warm up the pressure drops quite low - to about 5 psi at idle - and sometimes lower. I run 15w-40.While I get no valve train noise (at the moment), I am concerned with the oil pressure drop. I wonder if it is only a matter of time.On the other hand is the engine due for an overhaul - and that's the reason for the pressure??? Don't know.Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now