Leveling system ?

[Guest]

Thanks guy's for all your input i will see if i can get it at least a litle

lower i dont have to get it that low in the pictures but a little lower then what it is now...

[55PackardGuy]

Here's a pic of a lowered and chopped '56. Can be done. Should it be done? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

http://autohobbypage.com/cgi-bin/03/_image.pl?/show/03/skat/kat014.jpg

[55panama]

G,

The '55 Clipper Super 2dr ht, aka Panama, came with the standard suspension. It had a 320ci instead of a 352ci, but the performance is similar, because it weighs less without the torsion system. I used to have a project Panama that was loaded with all power, etc. so some of them were well equiped too.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a pic of a lowered and chopped '56. Can be done. Should it be done?</div></div>

Ugh! A 1956 Packard is [color:"red"] NOT a 50 Merc "lead sled"!

[Guest Randy Berger]

They say "Beauty is only skin deep". That car is frame-ugly. Also I bet that is a 5622 with sprung suspension. God, what a disaster!

YFAM, Randy Berger

[Jack Harlin]

Randy, it may belong to one of the young Amish boys around Lancaster,

with the blacked out chrome. Probably rides like a buggy. Jack

[6219_Rules]

That is a sin. To waste a beautiful car in good condition like that when there are so many hulks around waiting to be crushed. What can this man have been thinking? Oh, wait...who thinks anymore. GGRRRRRRRRRR <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

[Jack Harlin]

Im not sure I should bring this up but ill try. When Packards were

were known for quality, & expensive, & has followed that feeling,

no owner would think of customizing them, being mostly older owners.

I bought a new 49 Ford contv. & 3 months later installed a "48" Pack.

Grille, & cont. spare, & lacquer paint, plus other things. But, never would have thought

of installing a 49 Ford grille in a Pack. I sectioned 5" out of a 42 Ford

Contv, 47 Lincoln rear fenders etc. but never thought of doing such to a

Pack. I think today the younger Pack owners dont have the feel for what a Pack

is or used to be. Has Pack lost its clout today, with younger owners, I believe

it has, in some cases, from the questions that are asked here?? Jack

[Guest]

Well said...I am a younger crowd I am 33 <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I know it is probably taboo

to customize a Packard but think of it this way. The car is still around

maybe a little changes but its still being shown at all events..My goal is to

get the car a little sleaker and to make it a slight kustom...Everything im going to be changing can be put right back again,so its not really hurting the car.Anyway i love the car because it is different and know one every does customize theses cars why is it ok to do a Ford/Chevy/Chrysler but not a Packard who made that up...

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Everything im going to be changing can be put right back again,so its not really hurting the car... </div></div>

If that is your rule, go for it. However, chopping the top, sectioning the body, etc is NOT reversible.

How about a flashy paint job, exceeding even the mid-50s garish 3-tones? Flames or pinstripes or ??? might be "cool."

How about a set of 17 or 18-inch jazzy wheels? You can even lower your T-L Packard with shorter front links...they don't even have to be adjustable, just cut 'em and weld 'em: 1/2inch on the link equates to 3/8" height change. But, cutting off the front frame like was done on AlK's 1951 Patrician is butchery.

You can install a super stereo system (if neg ground), just save the original panels before cutting any holes for speakers. I did in my 55 Pat, but it's all hidden, so you cannot tell. It's also easily reversible.

You may not know that I also engineered & installed front disc brakes and a modern dual master cylinder on 55 Pat. This change also cannot be readily seen and is reversible, although I personally think that would be stupid since my Pat now stops like more modern cars, so it's much safer to cruise.

My $0.02

[Guest]

Well im not chopping it or sectioning at all all im doing is dual exhaust,fake lake pipes,dummy spotlights,57 caddy eldo hubcaps with bullets centers,doing a nice stero system hidden.Interior is all stock..except for the gold steering wheel im putting on and for the new moon gauges in the stock spots...a chrome moon sweep tach moon clock,and of course the big change im leaving the car white in the stock

area and doing the red a nice Gold color..So i dont think that ruining a Packard i think thats giving it a little charm.....

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) the new moon gauges in the stock spots...a chrome moon sweep tach moon clock ...</div></div>

I could not find ANY aftermarket gauges that were the correct size for the holes in the Packard dash, including Moon. They are either too small or too big. Here's what I measured:

Clock (1956):

Bezel ID: 3"

Hole ID: 3.315"

Instruments:

Bezel ID: 1.97"

Hole ID: 2.313"

Speedo:

Bezel ID: 4.120"

Hole ID: 4.568"

"Bezel" in the above means the original chrome "ring" that is removable (with care). So, one could ream out the ID of the bezel to get a measurement that would work, but unless you have your own lathe. If you find "bolt-in" ones, let me know. Also, removing the instruments from the dash without removing the entire dash (non-trival), is non-trival. Be forewarned.

[DGRINKE]

DGRINKE@msn.com [color:"black"]

I HAVE JUST REGISTERED AND THIS IS MY FIRST POST, SO HAVE PATIENCE. I HAVE A

55 MODEL 400 AND AM IN THE PROCESS OF REBUILDING ALL THE IMPORTANT STUFF FIRST,

FRONT SUSPENSION, STEERING & BRAKES. I HAVE FOLLOWED THE CHAT ROOM FOR A WHILE AND WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT MR. HENDRICKSON ABOUT THE T/L SUSPENSION. I TRIED TO E-MAIL FROM THE WEB SITE BUT THE POSTMASTER KICKED IT BACK. I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE ANY AND ALL HELP AND HOPEFULLY MAY BE ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE HELPFUL INFORMATION MYSELF IN THE FUTURE. IF I'M BREAKING ANY RULES WITH THIS REQUEST PLEASE LET ME KNOW.THANK YOU FOR YOUR TOLERANCE.

DAN RINKE

[Guest Randy Berger]

Dan, welcome aboard! Always good to have another Packard owner join the group.

The only rule is sort of a web rule - we only use capital letters to indicate shouting. Turn off the caps lock on your keyboard. If you can, attach a picture of your 400 so we can all have a look at it.

YFAM, Randy Berger

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> DGRINKE@msn.com [color:"black"]

(snip) AND WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT MR. HENDRICKSON ABOUT THE T/L SUSPENSION. I TRIED TO E-MAIL FROM THE WEB SITE BUT THE POSTMASTER KICKED IT BACK...</div></div>

Here's my current email: wcraigh@air-internet.com

[6219_Rules]

G', I do not think that it is good to kustomize any car that is of age or value that is in good condition since it serves as an example of what they were new, an accomplishment of our past.

However, as Brian said, once the title is in a person's possession the question is up to them.

There are many hulks ready for crushing, which may begin soon in earnest if not already, that could be kustomized. It is a shame that we lose a valuable well kept example of any marque because as time passes they become more and more rare. Attrition will take care of many so it seems a shame to lose what we have in our power to preserve.

I forgot the name of the car, but my memory serves to remind me of the Willys, I think, for 1932 that is now almost entirely extinct in any shape because it was so highly prized by kustomizers..hot rodders...in the past. A beautiful car with very few original examples left. While this is not likely to occur to all marques, it does demonstrate the extremes that can be had.

I maintain in spite of these feelings, that a car is the property of the owner and can be done with as they so desire. This is not a moral issue as such, certainly not one of law, but I think an issue of importance. Hopefully there are more who would preserve than there are those who would modify. I managed to save my '47 from being chopped and channeled and while it is not esteemed as valuable as a sedanette or Series 60, it is still a beautiful example of a working, well maintained Cadillac from 1947...which makes it valuable in itself.

So do as you will with your car. I have modified some aspects of mine, like the radio, for convenience and use...and have been summarily lambasted for it, I can tell you!

I am not judging what you do, only trying in some halting fashion to explain why we value originality and preservation over modifications. Now, as John Amphicar would put it...I will don my ass-bestos long johns, helmet and get ready for the blitz! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would love to see pictures of your car, G. (I apologise if you have already shared them...my memory is none too good today.) <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

I respect everyone's opinion greatly..I do have some thoughts of keeping it orignal but i still invision it slight kustom..It will AHHH them at any show i bring it to stock or customized, I just have the feeling it would like good with some changes sorry guys i know you love to keep these cars stock, but i want to do some changes for comfort and some looks <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..Even though these cars are awesome looking the way they are...Its funny you really dont see any of these cars at shows around here.

As for the pictures i never put any up i will try to get some together so i can share them with you... <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[6219_Rules]

I am looking forward to seeing them, G. I also wonder about not seeing many Packards at local shows. I guess they are 1. rare enough to not be seen in the west as much, or/and 2. many collectors locally go for cars that are more familiar to them.

I would NEVER suggest that a Packard is more trouble prone! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding.

[Guest]

Thanks Randall, i will get some up soon..Well let me tell you i have been going to cars show since i was 15 with my Dad and i really dont think i've seen many Packard's

so i guess thats a good thing <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />For us...that own them.

[Guest]

Not many Packards in downstate Illinois at shows either. In fact very few orphans of anykind, not counting recent orphans like Olds, or Plymouth. When you consider that only 1000 or so of my model '56 Packard Executive were made and probably we're lucky if 10 percent survived, then there's a good reason for lack of Packards. And then you get to the problem of trying to explain to "the younger generation" exactly WHAT a Packard is, or was. Most think it was just a model of some other make. Ah Well, I guess part of our love of the old orphans is educating the "masses." LOL

[55PackardGuy]

Well, I just got done eating a bowl of burned clam chowder because I got so engrossed in reading these replies to my innocent little post... that's probably my punishment. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> But, now I feel cranky and want to keep it going. Here is an "in-process" sectioning from a link posted on Craig's Panther Project site. It's NOT his car, but an example from Custom Rodder.

http://www.1956packardpanther.com/CustomRodder1.jpg

Craig, you also confessed to thinking about this for the Panther car, and I was wondering if you still are? NOTE: you guys know, of course, that the Panther project started with two very rough cars, so don't jump on Craig, OK?

The article also offers a rear view of the same car, in case you're not mad enough already:

http://www.1956packardpanther.com/CustomRodder2.jpg

Speaking of the odd market effects of customizing, I bet it's hard to find tail-lights for '56 Clippers and Executives, given their popularity for grafting onto custom jobs. Do you owners take extra precautions to avoid pilferage from your vehicles?

By the way, I don't think it's a matter of "should" or "shouldn't" when it comes to customizing. It just seemed to be a terse way of presenting the issue...

Myself, I lean toward keeping 'em stock, except for fairly easy-to-reverse mods. "G", I would encourage you to reserve judgment on the ride height of the Constellation until you get the leveling system working properly, possibly with a manual switch. You can "customize" the stance of the car with the flip of a switch, and wow them at the car shows, too. Especially when you tell them the car came with that system from the factory.

I really liked Craig's idea on wheels, too. That way you can use lower profile tires and still fill up the wheel wells. As you can tell by the Packard trim and paint, there are a lot of styling tricks to make a car look lower. Think horizontal lines. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[DGRINKE]

Thank you for the heads up. I have a habit of typing like I write notes. I also appreciate the welcome and would like to thank Mr. Hendrickson for his post. I tried to put a picture of my car in the post, but i don't have a web site yet and couldn't figure out how to get one entered. I'm no genius on computers.

Regards,

Dan

[6219_Rules]

Well now here is an exception to the rule as it were. Craig's Pannther project is, I think, a marvelous continuation of the art form that car companies have been doing since the 30s.

Designing and producing a Project to show what COULD be accomplished within the marque.

It is still a Packard, and it is following a tradition. Of course the same could be said of the kustomizer and hot rodder. I think the two pictures you show are really interesting...I like the slope and rakish style. My only point was that preservation is a reasonable goal if we want to have any of these cars left for future people to enjoy. The fact that Packard is a name that requires definition to the uninitiated simply underscores the point.

I am eager to see how Craig's project goes. I have thought that the available performance option on the '47 Cadillac might be an interesting project to follow but it would be absurd on a sedan...but on a coupe or sedanette it would be a lot of fun! Check out Schneider for that option - Edmond's speed equipment with dual carb intake manifolds, aluminum heads, hotter ignition components and high rise exhaust cross-overs...that car would BOOK. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Then again, it might be fun to have the old sedan juiced up using the available equipment at the time. Hmmmm. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) Here is an "in-process" sectioning from a link posted on Craig's Panther Project site. It's NOT his car, but an example from Custom Rodder. (snip)</div></div>

The problem with the 56 Exec in the Custom Rodder mag article was that it started out as a perfectly good running car! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> There are plenty of condition 4 or 5 ones out there that could have been the basis. It's simply a shame to remove a good one from existence, IMO.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Craig, you also confessed to thinking about this for the Panther car, and I was wondering if you still are? </div></div>

No. We on this or a predecessor board kicked that idea around a bit way back when. PackardV8 even sent me a "sectioned" picture of one to get an idea. I decided that it was too much work for me to tackle. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I bet it's hard to find tail-lights for '56 Clippers and Executives, given their popularity for grafting onto custom jobs. Do you owners take extra precautions to avoid pilferage from your vehicles? </div></div>

I understand that Kanter is repoping these tail lights for a reasonable price. The ones going on my Panther are stored in the house in the back of a closet!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really liked Craig's idea on wheels, too. That way you can use lower profile tires and still fill up the wheel wells. </div></div>

I have the wheels & tires for the Panther. I'm using Goodyear Eagle RS-A P225/60R16 V97 which are two inches less diameter (26 vs 28) than the Coker Classic (WWW) P235/75R15's on my 55 Pat. I ordered "smoothie" steel wheels from Wheel Vintiques (who also make the correct Packard wire wheels, BTW) with a dual bolt pattern (4-1/2 & 4-3/4). I'll paint the wheels the same color as the car and add a chromed "baby moon" style hub cap with a Packard crest painted or transferred on.

I got dual pattern wheels because I am also using these wheels & tires on my other project, a turbocharged 1976 Firebird:

TurboFORCE Revival Project

I paid $35 per tire, slightly used. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> These are high speed (97V rating or 150mph) tires from the Nevada Highway Patrol. Hence the 16-in wheels.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

someone wrote:

" have thought that the available performance option on the '47 Cadillac might be an interesting project to follow but it would be absurd on a sedan..."

NOT absurd at all. In fact quite the contrary. If a hi-perf adaption is made to a car u want the structure of the car as strong as possible, hence a sedan. This is especialy true for sustained hi-speed operation or for such activities as boot-legging, muleing, rolling brodie brothels and the like. Of course the weaker structured hard tops and convertibles can be beefed up its alot of work and trial and error to some degree. There is nothing worse than hitting 90+ mph and suddenly experienceing St. Vida's dance or somekind of sineusoidal throb in the car or a bad cowl shake. Have u ever seen a Limo hard top????

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Craig. Genius idea on those wheels. I like it.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

The Reinhardt bodied Packards (51-56) serve very well for body sectioning because they have a lot of verticle side area that can be reomoved. Look at the Executive and the area between the two full length side mouldings is ideal for sectional removal. The only other car i know or that could be easier is the 60-64 Linclons which are about as slab-sided as they come. BUT, the 60-64 linclolns are already low profile to begin with. However sectioning is somewhat of a radical change in any cars appearance UNLESS accompanied by some channeling. Sectioning alone tends to throw any car out of proportion. But, when channeled it also tends to give the car a custom/luxury sports car flare.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> (snip) This is especialy true for sustained hi-speed operation or for such activities as boot-legging, muleing, rolling brodie brothels and the like.

</div></div>

What the H*** are you taking about here PackardV8? Doing "Thunder Road" all over again or what?

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

snap or snip or something like that:

" PackardV8 even sent me a "sectioned" picture of one to get an idea. I decided that it was too much... ".

I came up with another idea: Look closely at the 55-56 Packard bodies. Now imagine removing the body and replacing it on the chassis BACKWARDS. Now the front becomes the rear and the rear becomes the front. BARE WITH ME HEERE.

Use clear plastic repops of the tail lite lens and mount some of those modern tiny round headlites behind them. Grill the section between the deck lid and the lower splasher there-of. Presto, instant modern looking front end without the bug-eye look of so-many modern cars. For the rear of the car, replace the lower grill with somekind of full width red/amber plastic light up lens. Fill in the upper large grill area with painted sheet metal. Skirt the 'rear' wheel openings to match the 'fronts'. That only leaves the door opening arrangement as a little bizzare but if using an H.T. the dash could be extended to popular DISproportionate modern lengths and a suicide door body style obtains.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

No Thunder Road revisited here Craig. I was only trying to drive home the point that there is no reason NOT to Hi-perf the sedans too! Certainly, the H.T.s and converts are a better looking car than the sedans but why discount the sedans as a candidate for performance???? Especialy in the very luxury models such as the Pats.

[55PackardGuy]

And you guys jumped on the poor fella that lowered and chopped that '56 Exec I posted. We have no idea, he might've started with junk. In a way, it's a nice homage to a make to make a kustom out of it. I think that car's worst point was bad paint. It might not have even been finished.

But since Craig and "G" (by the way G, you mind if i use your real first name? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) were talking about gauges to fit the stock openings on the Packard dash, here is the interior of that car from Carnut. I think it's a nice job on the gauges, and it looks like he found some that fit the holes, too. I don't know anything about aftermarket gauges, but maybe you folks can identify these and use the info:

http://autohobbypage.com/cgi-bin/03/_image.pl?/show/03/skat/kat015.jpg

Notice the bezels are all there. There is a black surround to make the speedo fill the hole.<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's nice to hear you talking about the Panther again, Craig. You have a lot of neat stuff in mind for it. By the way, I vote NO on sectioning. Not because of the work, but because I think the car will look great without it. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's the back of that car, which I didn't post before. Another chance to be outraged, or impressed...

http://autohobbypage.com/cgi-bin/03/_image.pl?/show/03/skat/kat016.jpg

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

The black surround on the gauges is the same thing i did on the water temp gauge that i mounted in the 56 CLOCK hole. I used a piece of stainless rather than black. The temp gauge i used is a big one and nearly fills the 56 clock hole all but for a 1/16 inch margin around the diameter.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

its difficult tot tell from a quarter shot but i'm guessing that car has been channeled.

[WCraigH]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">snap or snip or something like that (super snip)</div></div>

Man, PackardV8, you are really off the wall with this one!

OK, since we're being "off-the-wall" here, PackardV8: are you willing to come out to Nevada and crew with KevinAZ and others for PaulLasVegas and my's attempt to get these old Packard V-8s to run 140mph???

Just want to know, in case I actually decide to do this.

[bernardi]

Craig -

If you try at the right time of year, I'll be there too.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Yes, i'd like to crew for the 140 mph event. When will it be??? Keep us posted on this as plans developes. I might even bring MY Executive or have it shipped out there as a chase car.

[55PackardGuy]

Shoot, I'm older'n you (by 3 years) but I was referring to the entire tail light assembly, which was grafted whole onto customs in large quantities. I've seen up to SIX of these used on one car. I'm guessing most of them were scavenged off of junk, or not so junk, Packards. I'd keep mine in the back of a closet, too. A locked closet.

There's no need to defend Craig's Panther to me... I love the idea. It was his site that led me to this forum (for better or worse) and I've been tugging his sleeve about it ever since.

It sounds like Craig found out for sure that the Exec on Carnut started out as a good (worth restoring) car? Is this established fact? I agree that the body, especially the sides, looks like it needs more work. But the line of the roof, especially the back, is well done (at least in concept if not execution) and looks quite "period." I just don't think the car deserves to be dismissed out-of-hand. The dash work and interior look excellent. That's where I'd spend some money, too, because you spend so much of your time looking at the inside of your car. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd like to read what the owner has to say about it. Could be very interesting. Hope he isn't scared away.

But I won't mention it again, unless there is a call for more dialog. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[55PackardGuy]

Brian,

Thanks for your considered and, as always, well-written reply. Yeah, maybe we're not the "old guys" but we're gettin there...

Just one note: The Carnut site lists the car as an "Executive" rather than a Clipper. I know the front fenders have a Clipper look, but they might have been replaced/altered. Also, wouldn't a Clipper have the Clipper dash emblem on the passenger side, rather than the Packard script?

Just getting back to more historical, "car-spotter" stuff here y'all <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Craig: When u get a chance, measure the over all OD of the properly inflated tire u will be using to make the 140 run. AND, what rear axle ratio will u be using?? I want to figure engine rpm at 140 M/Hr. Off the top of my head i'm guessing about 5K rpm with 3.09 rear end and 27" overall diameter wheels and tires but i'll do an accurate calculation based on your dimensions.

[WCraigH]

PackardV8: Those are accurate, measured dimensions, i.e., 26-in for the Goodyear Eagle GS-A's and 28-in for the Coker Classics.

My Panther (nee Clipper) has a 3.31:1 rear gear. But the reground cam has a higher power curve than the stocker. Peak HP is at about 5500 rpm.

BTW, today, while calling about another subject (the Pontiac TurboFORCE project), I talked to a guy who was connected with the Nevada "Silver State Classic" race. He knew about the 1989 race that I attended in which a 1968 Camaro with a 19 year old driver set the record which stood for many years: 198MPH avg (believe it!).

So, 140MPH is nothing in that race. One doesn't even need a full roll cage, thank goodness. I wouldn't want to install same in the Panther.