66 Toronado Value Followup

[Guest]

Ok folks reality check time.

A lot of you were posting responses to the post on Toronado value by looking at a totally worthless price guide. The bottom line is that the 66 Toro that was sitting for sale for "months" was not even selling for $4000.00. Then that tells you a lot about Toro values.

The dealer that was going to offer the one gentleman $10,000 was a dealer with deep pockets. I work for a dealer, a wealthy man that buys what he wants when he wants it, old car wise.

In the real world beautiful original examples of first gen Toros are all over the map pricewise. I know of a beautiful Dubonnet Deluxe car that has been in a museum since 1980 and has 68,000 original miles and they are asking $6500.00 for it and have been for well over 2 years.

Toros are one of those beautiful creations that has no market or a very specialized one. The same is true of first Gen Buick Rivieras (63 to 65). Everybody agrees they are nice cars (Toros, Rivs, Eldorados) but in terms of demand compared to say - muscle cars or 50's cruisers, even 60's convertibles, they are DOGS.

Obviously, this is a topic that has touched a nerve because I spent 4 years restoring a 66 Dubonnet car that was pretty well loaded. I put $3500.00 into the motor, trans. and this car only needed bodywork. I advertised it in the Toro Club newsletter and the JWO. I finally offered it for $1000.00 after putting over $6000.00 into it. No takers. Finally some Olds club member from Canada offered me $900.00 for it.

It's not just my car - I have seen several "real world" Toros go unsold for months. And if you wonder what happens to unsold restorables - those cars that runa nd drive but need TLC - they get crushed. They first go to the bone yard, where performance geeks rob all the goodies off the motor or pull the forged crank 425's - and then they sit there with excellent parts to give up until they are crushed.

The rare seller that gets $10,000 for a really nice Toro is laughing all the way to the bank. This next spring, early spring, I am going to get a nice running driving local-show-quality car and I would love to buy that museaum Toro for $6500 or offer - maybe offer $5700.00 or so but I am going to resist because if I have to sell, or want a different car - it won't sell, it'll sit and sit or I'll have to take a bath on it again.

BUYERS BEWARE. Let the market set the price on Toros. Do not overpay and take into consideration that THERE IS NO DEMAND FOR THESE CARS.

Out

Wildcatr

[Guest imported_DaveZZZ]

You're certainly right that market demand sets prices, and that Toros are not the objects of desire they deserve to be. My experience is that the location makes a big difference- the woman who sold me my ninety eight tried to sell it for two years. She told me that as soon as people found out it was in the middle of nowhere Iowa, nobody wanted it (too much trouble). I made a deal that I would give her asking price if SHE brought it to me and it was as nice in real life as her photos and videos made it look. Once I got it and started cruising around the Boston area with it, I got two offers for more than I paid. Boston is not very nice to cars, so these are much rarer there. I live in southern NH and commute to Boston every day, and that Toro is sitting in downtown Derry. If it were moved 25 miles south, I can almost guarantee that it would be sold by now.

The other problem with the Toro is that a lot of people don't know anything about them- I have had arguments with "car-guys" who don't believe that Olds started making FWD in 66.

I just hate to see it die. Whenever my wife and I go by a pet store in the mall, she always has to go look at the puppies. She says that she knows pet stores are bad places to buy puppies, as it encourages the puppy mills, but that she wants them because she feels bad for them and wants to give them a home. Well, I sorta feel that way about any 35 year old car that is sitting out...

[rocketraider]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THERE IS NO DEMAND FOR THESE CARS.</div></div>

Which is one reason I like them. Makes nice examples easy to buy, and for someone like me who keeps a car forever, turning over money is not an issue. People have told me that once I buy an old car, it goes into a vacuum. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've had three cash offers for my 69 this summer, but I don't want to sell it. Of course that happens almost anytime it goes out. And yes, I have also had people tell me front-wheel-drive cars weren't made back then. I smile and tell them I appreciate that they think I could build such a car in a backyard garage.

It's the same with Starfires. I regularly see Impalas going for $18-25k, when I can buy a way nicer Starfire (or Riv, or Grand Prix) for half that. Do you think I 'm going to turn loose of that kind of money for a Chevrolet when I can get a more desirable Olds? Again, supply and demand. Everybody thinks an Impala is the s**t. They're nice to have, but not $20k nice.

But then I have also run into people selling Starfires who deal mainly in Chevys, and think nothing of asking $20k for a car with wrong paint, bad trim, no documentation and a generally shoddy restoration- same as they do with the Chevrolets. Even had one try to sell me a 63 as a "late production 62" because DMV had botched the original title when the car was new. And that is when the hammer drops... I normally won't pick a car apart, but if the situation calls for it, do it. And then I will tell them the car doesn't meet my standards and walk away.

It's a shame when you have to be like that. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

The bottom line is that this topic is a major dilemma facing collectors. I would never buy a comparable Chevy over a senior division car of comparable sub-series. I own a 64 Buick Wildcat convertible, I have looked what seems like forever for a decent Jetstar I, 1964 vintage. I would take a 65 Jetstar I too but I've never seen one. I'm not down on the Toro - I mean it's really ridiculous that they are not appreciated more. I may end up buying one but I just feel as if I have served my purpose in this arena once and got my ass whipped so it's time to try something else.

I just don't want people to overpay. If I could find a driver Toro for $2000.00 bucks that I could chip away at restoration wise and maintenance wise, then it's a steal because I love driving those cars but when people start tossing around blue book prices like $18,000 for a near perfect show car with low mileage I say show me, prove it with real world sales, not price guide quotes.

It's all about price. The Chevys will NEVER be what an Olds Starfire or Toronado were in their heyday, not even close.

Thanks

Bryan

[DoubleSnorkel]

The reason I have had mine (66Toro) forever is that in the 65 thru 68 or 9 stock class I am usually the only Toronado at the show, other than the multitudes of Chevelles, Cameros, Mustangs and GTO's. Not to knock those cars, they are super cars!! But you can build one of these right out of a <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> catalog if you have the pocket book to match! Try that with a Toro of any year, and I say good luck!!

[Guest]

I agree that the area you're in changes things. There is another '66 where I live, and I think the guy has had it for several years, but I have NEVER seen the thing...so, I'm the only one at any show I ever go to.

The thing that amazes me the most is that there are sooo many people that come up to me at shows and say that they had one at one point or they knew someone who had one. So, where are all of these cars? Have they all been "crushed"?

Now, I'm only 20, so I'm gonna play the nieve college student on this one. As far as the value thing goes, I wasn't tryin to irritate anyone with my post, I was just tryin to give the guy the only info I had. I, obviously, haven't had any expeience selling one of these, and I don't see any situation that would ever cause me to have to sell it. But that's another story.

[DoubleSnorkel]

All that I am trying to say is that odd-ball is cool!! There are sooo many Mustangs, Camereo's etc... it is cool to actually see some thing different. They did not make very many 66 Toronado's compared to lets see a 66 Mustang. Young is cool, without you youngsters getting involved in this hobby it wold die out. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Yeah, that's why I love them too. But, there were about 40,000 produced in '66 correct? Where are they? I went to nationals in Cinci for a day hoping to see some and I think there were 4. I was later told that there were 6 on saturday. So, is it just that nobody shows em? I didn't have mine there cause I only had the one day to be there, but otherwise I definately would've had it there.

I guess I just don't understand since I've never got into the competition part of car shows. I go because I'm a show-off and I love lookin at other people's cars (I haven't won anything at a show where there were more than 50 cars). But, I realize there a whole lot of people that won't even take their car to a show unless they know they'll drive away with a trophy. Is that why you never see them at car shows, or is it just that there aren't many that are still driven?

[rocketraider]

Cincinnati was bit of a fluke Toro-wise. There's usually 15-20 66 on display at a National Meet, with 67-70 being the rarities. Usually a bunch of 2nd series too. I don't know why they didn't come out this year. I know I left mine home because (1) A/C is dead and (2) I'd have gone over my insurance mileage limit had I taken it.

Mark, I take mine out for the same reason. It blows people slap out of the water when they see the big-block FWD setup. It's won a wall full of trophies but most mean nothing to me- the National wins, a couple of Olds show Long Distance awards, a ten-year attendance award at a local show that benefits a foundation in memory of my nephew who died at 19- those are special. The rest, I could not care less about. They're dustcatchers, and I ought to donate them to Special Olympics or something else worthwhile.

I used to judge some local shows and a guy with a fairly ordinary 67 Chevelle always showed up with a back seat and trunk full of trophies which he displayed in front of the car. You couldn't even see the car for them. He was a real trophy hound and would get visibly upset at anything less than a first place. I pissed him off badly several years ago when I told him I was there to judge a car, not a trophy display, and he needed to move them out of the way if he wanted me to judge the car.

But do you know the last two years, the car always shows up sans trophies?

I think one reason Toro don't come out is because they've gotten fairly difficult to find parts for and the owners don't want to risk getting smacked. It's not like they're not roadworthy in modern traffic.

As long as there's a young guy who appreciates them, though, they'll still show up. I was 30 when I bought my 69, and have had it 17 years. Four as a daily driver and then it's been cosmetically restored twice. Needs it again, but there's a 1974 Pace Car that has to be finished first.

[imported_Badger Guy]

I envy you guys that stay with the Toro's. It's a car most people know nothing about. A great looking car. I just got started in the Olds restro hobby at the age of 49. I wish I would have done it years ago. I got sick of seeing the same cars at the shows. I would rather see a painstakingly restored Nash (only the old guys know what they are)than another camaro or mustang.I am building a 67 F/85 2dr post. It won't be original but it will be mine.

[Guest]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got sick of seeing the same cars at the shows. I would rather see a painstakingly restored Nash (only the old guys know what they are)than another camaro or mustang.</div></div>

Oh no! I guess I need to clarify. My dad has a '48 Frazer Sedan that's restored. The current "project" is a '50 Kaiser Vagabond (the original hatchback for those who may not know). We have 2 more of these cars sitting in the shed. I have never been around a "normal" old car.

I think that's where the love for the Toro came from. My dad is the one that saw it first, I didn't even have my license the first time he tried to buy it.

And, (side note) I went to a state park several years ago and they were having a Nash national meet there. I have never seen so many little metal boxes in one place before in my life. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

interesting post because my 66 toro just came out today in our local buy and sell for $1800 cdn as a very original, good driver with minimal rust. Was a one owner car till last month, and had been stored for 6 years.I love the lines of the car but I've got to many projects on the go. Nice cars to drive though.

[DoubleSnorkel]

Like I said, Odd is Cool! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Have you ever had anyone crawl under the rear bumper to see where the transfer case is for the front wheel drive? Those Chebby boys never cease to amaze me!! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_DaveZZZ]

Well, I guess I am young-ish, at 30. I just got into the hobby this year, but I have wanted to since I was in High School. But first college took all my money, then marriage, then getting a house... Before long I was 30 and it was actually my wife who said do it, or you never will. I think all this talk on these boards about needing young people in the hobby forgets that, beyond interest, it requires a decent wallet. Also, in most parts of the country, storing it in the driveway isn't a good option, so by the time you've got the space and the money, you're 30 (usually). And that assumes you have a family willing to share you with the car.

Interestingly, you know who makes the most comments about the ninety eight? Young kids (10 - 15) and Old Guys (>60) seem to love it. I understand the old guys, but I haven't figured out why I get sooo many looks from 12-year-olds. Maybe they aren't yet jaded and actually notice things around them?

[Guest]

Lots of good posts with a cross section of comments. The post about the driver Toronado selling for $1800.00 (or at least being offered for that) is what I am talking about in terms of real world values. It does not depreciate OUR interest in the car, but paying and selling for these cars has to be realistic.

Like I said, I may buy a Toro after all because I can get more bang for my buck. The one in the museum for $5500.00 with 68,000 original miles off the road since 1980 or ??what else can I get for $5500.00? A 66 442 in similar shape HA!! No way. And to think that muscle cars were based on grocery getters of the day so all your getting is speed and later on some add on style.

The Toronado had so much at stake in it's creation and fruition that it is a true masterpiece. Before I sold mine to the guy in Canada I drove my Toro. I loved it too. It was a big job to restore and still wasn't done with taht $6000.00 in it. So I had to draw the line somewhere.

Wildcatr

[Centurion]

During the mid-1960's, my best friend's dad owned the local Olds dealership. What a thrill to this 12-year old boy when his dad brought home a new '66 Trumpet Gold Toronado Deluxe. The family kept this car for several years, and I loved riding in it whenever I had the opportunity.

The facelifted '67 was disappointing to me, but I find the '68 thru '70 models very unique and interesting. If I could add to my collection, a first generation Toronado would be high on my list. Wouldn't it be fun to have a '66 Toronado, '67 Eldorado, and '66/'67 Riviera collection?

[Guest imported_DaveZZZ]

I always thought it would be fun to collect either one of each Olds model from 67 (just because 67 was the year Olds I started with), or one 67 from each GM division. In the latter scenario, I think I would go:

67 Olds 98 convertible

67 Deville convertible

67 Electra hard top (might as well make one of the big cars an HT)

67 GTO convertible

67 Corvette

This would be nice, with hard tops and convertibles in both luxury and sport.

Maybe when I win the lottery... [which I don't play]

[Guest]

Well, I can get you started on a two for one package deal. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> The other car that I put in our buy and sell besides the 66 Toronado is a rough but close to complete 67-98 convertable for $650cdn. I think someone said location is one of the great helps when selling these cars. Easier when your by a larger population base.

[rocketraider]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My dad has a '48 Frazer Sedan that's restored. The current "project" is a '50 Kaiser Vagabond (the original hatchback for those who may not know). We have 2 more of these cars sitting in the shed. I have never been around a "normal" old car.</div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">Collectible Automobile</span> December 2003 issue has a neat spread on the Kaiser Traveler and Vagabond. Neat cars, ahead of their time. A local junkyard had a couple of them about 15 years ago, but they're gone now.

The Kaiser Frazer Club is usually next to Oldsmobiles at Charlotte AutoFair, and I drool a lot over a Dragon that always shows up. If K-F had had an OHV V8 for the Manhattan and Dragon, I think they could have decimated Lincoln and put a dent in Cadillac sales. Those cars are REALLY nice, but a flathead six, no matter how capable, simply wasn't gonna sell hot in the early 1950s. Not with Rockets and Hemis on the streets.

[Guest]

Thanks for tellin me about that spread, I'll have to keep my eye out for it.

[Guest]

Then you get all types.....

I just spotted an ad in the same buy and sell that I bought my 66 toro through last month, but under the heading "trade for FG work on boat". I gave the guy a call and found out he had the car for 20 years and had the motor and tranny rebuilt 5 years ago and put on only 10,000 miles, the body has the usual wheel well rust, doesn't sound so bad, till I ask hows the interior??? Then he says was OK till my kids shot out the windshield and then the rats and mice pretty much ate the insides up, and also the car has been stored outside for two years.

Then the words "but it's a classic and it's worth the $1800 I want".

Any one price out new windshields and complete upolstery lately...no thanks...and you still need to do rust repair and paint....