Why buy a "collectable" Packard?

[WCraigH]

BACKGROUND: another long-time poster on this forum sent me an email rececently about a 1956 Packard Exec 4-dr for sale "cheap" on EBay. Good lead, and if I had been in another "Packard situation", maybe I would have bought this car. In this particular situation, I declined.

However, this email got me to thinking:

(1) Why do we buy our first "collectible" Packard?

(2) Why do we add to our collection?

(3) Why would we rescue an "orphan" for future use?

Add your own reasons here.

BTW, I was tempted to pursue this Packard, but...

[6219_Rules]

I would hazard to guess that, in order, you buy the first one for the mystique and excitement of owning a Classic, or a Collectable car.

We add to the collection to provide parts cars, different examples of the marque or just to have a different car to play with. Anyone who does this for financial gain is either nuts or has more money than Croesus.

I would rescue an orphan if I could afford it to do just that...to save a car that might be otherwise lost.

But I think the most important point is why would anyone collect a Packard? Anyone?

[Guest Randy Berger]

Randall (great name!) I learned to drive in a 1952 Mayfair hardtop and punished that car to no end. It could consistently beat a 53 Olds Holiday and a 52 Caddy which surprised me more than them. By the time I was buying my own cars Packard was an orphan and I got them cheap. I bought Packards because I got a lot more car for less money than my buddies who were in the same financial straits. I grew to really appreciate the way they were built as opposed to Fords, Chevys, Buicks, Caddys etc. My daily driver from 61-65 was a 1956 400. The owner sold it to me because the transmission was giving him fits. I got a shop manual with it and it took me about a week of reading and examination to determine the problem. Once fixed it gave me good service till some lady driver ripped up the passenger side with her 57 Chevy. She got caught between me and a 55 Buick. I drove away, the Buick drove away, and they put the Chevy on dolly wheels and towed it away. When I got the chance to purchase my current 400 in 1972 I jumped at it. I didn't follow the crowd as a teenager and I certainly don't follow the current crowd. If we all did there would be nothing but Chevy Novas with 350 engines at the local cruise. The Packards of the 50's were not the equal of the craftsmanship of the 30's, but then again nothing was. I really enjoy my Packard, including its idiosyncracies. Whenever anyone unfamiliar with this vehicle rides in it they are always impressed. So am I. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

YFAM, Randy Berger

[MBL]

Because Packard made a HIGHER QUALITY Car in the 50's than the other makers. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ....I got mine becuase the price made it possible...I lucked out...but as I was growing up I always looked at these cars and said maybe some day if I won the lottery I would own one....Now its not exactly the one I wanted but it never is.....and I have time to deal with it later as I refine my collection. You just don't see Packards driving around anymore...or at least not around here....and well mine is going to be my daily driver....so it will be seen.

Tim

MBL

[Guest]

We learned in the above "posts" by MBL and Randy, that

1) a '52 Packard Mayfiar will out-accellerate

the Olds and Cad of the same year

2) the fifty's Packards had tougher bodies

then GM cars

3) Packards of the 1950's were a higher quality

product than the GM cars of the same era.

DAMN....YOU GUYS FOUND OUT. All right...all right..I admit it...the auto buying public of that era agreed, and formed long lines around Packard dealerships begging to be allowed to buy those wonderful cars. But...I confess...it was "wicked me"....I ran around all those Packard dealers and chased all those buyers away....THATS why Packard couldn't sell enough of those wonderful cars to stay in business....

Pete Hartmann

[MBL]

Just to clear the air here....I know there has been alot of controversy over the postwar quality issue. I can't speak for the time as I was born considerably after. However I am very familliar with vintage cars and in fact never drove a car under 30 years old as a daily driver. I personally don't see my 55 400 is piece of junk. And if you compare it to some of the early 50's lincolns that I am very familliar with I don't see that big a difference in quality. So some may say that I don't know anything about this....thats fine....many companies go through times where quality fluctuates....all companies go through those. I am more apt to believe that business mismanagement had more to do with the company going under than consumer rejection. Alot of things were stacked against Packard in those days....and you know I don't care. I am not in competion with a 55 Cadillac nor is my car. When I am cruising in my Packard 400 to a show with my Gretsch guitar and amp...upright bass strapped to the roof.....Lets see someone in a 55 Caddy look down on me.

Tim

MBL

[Guest Albert]

#1 The right price, and it was different. The frist car I saved from the crusher (54 clipper Special) for $100cdn but i really want the 47 Clipper but his son had sold it an hour before I got there.

Its big & different and it confuses people trying to figure out the make...

B.H. not ever one looks out for those cars though, about a month or so ago

i had a gent come through a stop sign, taking a short cut through a plaza. I met him comming out the other side and asked him what his hurry was? And them pointed out the Dagmars on the front as to what they will do to a Honda Civic, and that he would not be in a hurry to work but to the hosipital or the morg.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

ans. 1) In my case it was hapenstance. (everything in my life is happenstance).

In fact, i was less sure of what a 56 Packard even looked like than

most car show jusdges. Once i saw it THEN i remebered seeing a

few in my earlier years in the Detroit area.

ans. 2) Why Not??? I fell in love with the car. Parts, mock-up etc.

ans. 3) If the price is right and the condition is right then why not?

Here is the bottom line: At some point there are a few of us in this world that wnat something DIFFERENT. And not JUST different but also OUTSTANDING. One can bemoan the 'quality issues' of the 55 and 56's ad-infinitum. YES, such quality issues are do exist. Nonetheless, those problems CAN be solved with diligence. NO, i would not have bought one NEW back in 56, at least not at fair market retail. I would have agreesively seeked out low mileage used 56's tho in say 58 and later years with problems so i could buy them cheap and have a fine car to drive after solving the problems. That was then, this is NOW!!!

I could go on and on about this. One thing is for sure, there are but only a hand full of us in the world that CAN make something out of these cars. If THAT does not set us apart from the average joe then the car itself DOES.

So let the CCCA, AACA, Packard 'clubs' et-al poo-poo the V8 Packards all they want to. Because, when i pull up in my 56 Exec on a saturday nite in front of local Nashville hot spots like the 'The Boundry' everyone likes it. One thing is for sure, NOONE is there in a prewar Packard and noone cares if any show up. AND, if one does show up it will probably be one i bought.

As for any sentiment toward the Packards i really have none. I grew up in rusted out bullet noses, ramblers and the like during my preteen years. Well i guess i have sentiment for the Packards now!

[WCraigH]

Good thread so far!

I guess it's about time I chimed in on my own reasons for buying a "collectible Packard". I'll try to be succinct:

(1) My dad owned a 1955 Clipper Super 4dr when I was 16. So that's the car I learned to drive. Same for my (younger) sister. The Twin-Ultramatic gave up after I started driving it alone due to too many "drag racing" style starts with High School buddies (this would have been 1961-63). After helping my dad remove, o'haul and re-install that heavy sucker, I quit the drag racing of his car.

(2) During high school dates, the Clipper's Torsion-Level was a big hit at various locales, especially the drive-in movie! The big front seat was also a plus (for you younger guys, see the movie "Heavy Petting" now available on video tape).

(3) Being an engineer by education and by trade, the 1955-56 V8 Packards are especially interesting to me amongst cars of that era. Telling the story of Packard V8 and the earlier V12s at car shows is always fun. The T-L stands alone.

(4) My Panther Project has offered me the opportunity to learn even more about these amazing cars and to do a few "improvements" that MAYBE the Packard factory would have gotten around to.

(5) Driving anywhere in a V8 Packard requires patience once one stops: You almost always get into conversations with latent Packard fans. I do agree with the comment above that if these same fans would have bought Packards in the 55-56 era, then maybe, just maybe, Packard would have survived a while longer.

Anyway, it's a terriric car to be "caretaker" for. No one I have ever talked to, regardless of their personal affinity, ever says: "Why'd you buy that dumb car?" The opposite always occurs.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Consider the Jag's. For 2 years prior to finding the Executive i was looking for an XJS or XKE convertible. Packard was no where in my mind. The jag's are more than just notorious for maintenance headaches and overheating etc. BUT, that did not stop me from wanting one. NOT wanting one for daily driver of course but mostly just for a toy. I'm glad that the packard came along. I like it alot better than what few Jags i've driven.

Bottom line: The Packard IS DIFFERENT without sacrificing any pinache as one would have to do with other 'Orphans'. I've streightened out alot of problems on the car like the oil pump, electric switches etc. I find it to be as reliable, DRIVEABLE and comfortable as ANY car i've ever driven or owned. Drive it at sustained Interstate speeds of 70-80 mpg, drive it at night, very cold weather, very hot weather, any where i want to go including some 300 mile round trips. Other than the obvious lack of available 'road side' service i would not hesitat to drive the car coast to coast and in a hurry to boot. But then again, the 'road side service' problem applies to most any car over 20 years old.

Like BH says, I'm glad the 'experts' do not want them either. I'm glad the cars had factory quality problems that discouraged the original buyers from uasing them too much. Leaves that many more for us that want them. 1956 was 1956. This is 2003. WE own the V8's not just because we want to but because WE CAN!

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

BH wrote:

"You know, I am really starting to like that other people/clubs/etc. don't care much for these V8 Packards - makes us that much more of an "exclusive breed." "

Yes, thats my attitude precisely too. AND, that should tell us alot about EXACTLY how much the V8 poo-poo'ers actually know themselves. After all, wasn't it the one of the 'clubs' that brought us the 1965 Packard V12 that so impressed Mr Eggbert????

We are 'on our own' with these cars. So be it. We can handle it. But the nay-sayers CAN'T.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Working late one night in 1966, my two bosses and I and the IBM salesman who had gotten us some test time on a computer that only ran on daylight hours, we were just shooting the breeze when I mentioned I was looking at a 51 Packard hearse that still had all its accoutrements and needed the clutch repaired. Ed, the IBM salesman expressed amazement that I would consider buying it. His quote was "Packard! they don't make them anymore do they?" I replied "No, Ed, you're correct - they don't make them anymore". The room fell silent for a few minutes and then I inquired of Ed what kind of car he drove. He said "That 64 Olds out front." I waited a few moments (timing is everything), and then asked quite innocently "64 Olds! they don't make them anymore, do they?" My bosses were cracking up and poor Ed was tongue-tied trying to come up with a rejoinder, but the time had passed and he sulked the rest of the evening. He never did engage me in much conversation after that <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. The wife wouldn't let me buy the hearse - it was one of the few times we really argued about any of my hobbies. She really hated the idea of a hearse parked out front or in the garage. Damn, I wish I had bought that vehicle!

YFAM, Randy Berger

[6219_Rules]

I do not understand this 'them against us' attitude. And who would give you a hard time about a V-8 Packard? Could someone please explain what is the problem? Is this a generational thing or an esthetic thing? Is it like Cadillac efficienados who poo-poo anything after 1970?

I put in a question on the CCCA general forum to discuss the general topic and was greated by an immediate response that if that is what I want, thats cool but its not acceptable at CCCA meets. Well no kidding! I'm a member and I know the bi-laws so I would only show it at the local meets and CLC meetings. Still I am hit by this attitude. I guess I don't understand it.

I know virtually nothing about Packards and like all I have seen and read. Oh sure I am not fond of the 1951 - 1954 designs, especially the grills but heck, I don't like all Cadillac designs either.

Splain to me, Lucy.

[52deluxe]

i just thought i would throw my 2 cents in. probably being the youngest packard owner here at 24, when i bought my packard i had never heard of the brand and that is exactly why i bought it. i am a gearhead and have owned quite a few older cars and motorcycles including a 1941 pontiac sedan, 54 dodge 5 window pickup, 62 chevey impala, 66 rambler ambassidor "i know its spelled wrong" ,69 plymouth, and countless antique motorcycles. i viewed the packard as a challange unlike most of the other cars i had you cant go down to your local auto shop and buy parts. in the last 3yrs i have learned a huge amount of info on packards and some of the innovations they are responsible for like the first practical use of a air conditioner in a automotive. it might also suprise some to find out that i have seen several ultramatic equiped 1/4 mile equiped drag cars. now that i have most of the bugs worked out of my packard i find it to be dependable and it rides better than the 88 cad i recently owned. i have taken this car on several long trips and the last one i racked up over a 1,000 miles in one week and the packard drew attention the whole way. as for the other 2 questions why rescue a orphan and add it to your collection, these cars are part of our history and being a orphan it has been forgoten by the general public. i view my 52 packard as the peak of early 50's design with the bubble shaped fenders and the low stance "it looks like its moving." i also like the ultramatic while it wont throw me back in my seat there is a good steady pull and i like nothing better than the looks i get from my passengers as they try and figure out what is missing when the car does not shift. even my wife who does not like old cars as she always viewed them as being "junky" has grown to love the car and made it quite clear i was keeping this one. i almost have her convinced we need another so we have a "his" and "hers" packard. if we dont preserve these cars it will be a great loss to future generations "when was the last time you saw a crosley jeepster" most of the people i see at the shows are of the retired age and they saw the streets lined with these cars but for me this is my chance to connect with part of history and participate in its preservation.

i know its was more like 25 cents.

tom

my web site with pics

[Guest JT]

I,like Randall, wonder why anyone into Packards would not include the V8's in their interest? Being one of the few regulars in here (and the old CC forum) with a prewar Packard hasn't kept me from enjoying learning about the 55-56 cars. I really find the TL Packards interesting from an engineering standpoint and would love to own one. I just wish they had put it on the 54's too since I would like to have a 54 nine main bearing Pacific coupe.

Doing all of my own mechanical work, lack of storage space and extra cash lying around makes if tough to own more than one car (not counting the daily drivers, ford truck,suburban and volvo wagon). I admire you guys who can keep up a whole stable of Packards. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Is it really fair that owners of the older Packards can occasionaly be caught turning up their noses at the '55 '56 V-8's...?

The "Torsion Level" concept is, I agree, an interestng one from an engineering standpoint. Those of you guys who are '55 - '56 enthusiasts, would get a big kick out of a Packard promotional film used to get the public excited about this. I first saw it in the fall of '54 at an auto show, it later had fairly wide circulation both on TV and in the movie theaters as a news event.

It showed a Packard "torsion bar" equipped car going at speed over a rail-road grade crossing. Then it showed what would happen to the Cads, Lincolns, and Chryslers of the same era trying to keep up with it. Pretty funny...and pretty dramatic.

No question that the torsion-bar concept permitted a very soft boulevard ride, while maintaining superior control over a wide range of high-performance situations.

Sadly, Packard's attempt to introduce this changed nothing. It was and remains a sophisticated concept, with significant technical difficulties in both manufacture and servicing, that make it impractical for most applications. Crawl under modern cars from ANY country, and you will see, typically, coil springs and conventional "independent" suspensions.

Packard also show-cased their then new V-8, introducing it with a "stunt" typical of what Packard used to do in their "golden years"....a extreme speed long-distance run. Of COURSE those more conservative times wouldn't let the typical rich buyer ADMIT he wanted performance...but LOOK WHAT SOLD CARS!

These two "stunts" (publicity on the introduction of torsion bar suspension, and a high performance V-8) had a dramatic effect on Packard sales. They went thru the roof for the first few months after the '55's were introduced.

As a rabid Packard buff even then, I took personal satisfaction in seeing that, after years of slipping away with ever poorer-performing, badly assembled products that were DESTROYING the famous Packard reputation, PACKARD WAS BACK !

Trouble was...the whole thing was a "con". Once in service, these terribly poor quality, badly assembled cars made a laughing-stock out of what was left of the famous Packard name. Within a few months, "word-of-mouth" in the industry was so bad, Packard sales went into the toilet. You can't keep a factory open, if you cant sell product. You can't sell product, if your poor quality has made you a laughing-stock.

Yes, those of us who owned and/or worked on Packards from its "golden years" know why there is a Packard mystique, and we do gravitate towards those earlier cars.

And, yes....while we find the V-8 Packards technically interesting, we do have trouble ignoring what they did to what was left of the Packard mystique, and finally, the company itself.

Packard in its golden era was a pioneer, determined to show the industry how to make a quality product that would generate repeat sales. Its famous slogan "ASK THE MAN WHO OWNS ONE" made it a legend...and then......sadly..... killed it in 1956. People did ! Wish there was a nicer end to this story...but there it is.

Pete Hartmann

'38 Packard V-12

(former owner of a '38 Cad. V-16...dumped the Cad...afte all..there was a reason why Packard sold 10 Packard Twelves for every Cad 16, which just wasnt as fast or as good a road car as the Packard...but....those were Packard's GOLDEN years..!)

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

PH wrote:

"And, yes....while we find the V-8 Packards technically interesting, we do have trouble ignoring what they did to what was left of the Packard mystique, and finally, the company itself."

Yep, thats right!. And NOONE since 56 has tried to correct the failure of the mystique. But guess what??? There are a few of us out here in the last few years trying our damnedest to bring it back. Lets face it, the problem that all of u CCCA pre '48 Hitlers have is not really with the 55-56 V8's but rather with the 110 vs 160 models. Those SILLY Packard clubs have been no help either with their 1965 Packard V12 SUV articles.

The V8 owners are-on-there-own with these cars. Amen.

Yay, tho i drive thru the Tennessee Valley in the shadow of Packards ruined mystique, i fear no 160's, 180's, V12's, mercedes nor BMW's. For the 55 and 56 V8's are the biggest and baddest MF'ers on the road. AND, as far as i know, MINE is the ONLY Packard on the road around here.

So be it.

[WCraigH]

Keith (PackardV8):

Your last paragraph ("Yay, tho...") is really good! Maybe you should change careers to satirist? <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Thanks for the advice, but for now i'll stick with lyrics.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

......or is that limericks???? i dunno. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Packard V8: Let me correct you on a few things. First of all you have little to fearr from running into a 160 or 180 equiped with a V12. Packard dropped the V12 at the end of the 1939 model year. The 160 and 180 was introduced in 1940. Let me asure you that any new 2003 BMW or Mercedes will blow the doors in on your 56 Packard and out run you to China and back. Second stay away from any Chrysler 300's from 55 or 56 the same thing will happen. You talk about CCCA pre 48 Hitlers, you have no idea or knowlegde of what the CCCA is about or what it represents. The Golden era represented a time of fine workman ship and handcrafted quality with certain model cars, which you seem to lack the basics of knowing. As a member of the CCCA I resent your Hitler remark. Your 1956 Packard brand new was far from being the the biggest baddest MF'ers on the road as you stated. As mcuh as I disagree with Peter, this man know his Packard V12's and isn't to arrgued with on that subject.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Too many book readers, not enuf wrench twisters. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

regarding PACKARD V'8 comments about the lack of legitimate REAL "wrench benders" these days.....

Damn right !

Pete Hartmann

P.S.....Hey...'53...I also know...just a WEE little bit...about '53 Packards...!

And '52's........and.....42's........and 32's.....

Cads....too !

[Guest]

Brian - that was a very passionate post, loaded with emotional generalities....now...let's pretend we are LEGITIMATE car buffs interested in REAL cars what they were REALLY about, and what happened as a result of them.........now...tell me...WHO...forced WHAT on you...? Who forced WHAT "down your throat".....Can you explain..? ( me thinks thou dost protest too much......! )

Pete Hartmann

[Ed Miller]

I'll throw in my two cents worth...

1. I bought my one and only Packard because the Pierce Arrow model I lusted for was not for sale. There are only three PA's of this model extant and none were for sale. So I settle for a comparable Packard model, bought it, restored it and now am enjoying it.

2. I have since added a Cadillac to my stable. She resides next to my Packard. The Packard is only driven about 800 miles each year. The Cadillac is driven with a vengence...i.e. I wanted a driver that I didn't mind putting a ding in the paint.

3. I have no interest in rescuing an orphan for someone else's use in the future. I collect for my self satisfaction. That's called elightened self interest.

[Guest]

Brian: I guess when I read the the statement about fearing no 160,180,V12's. I took the statement as meaning Packard 160's and 180's coming equiped with V12. So I though I would clear up what I though was a misconception on his part. In the statement he said that he has nothing to fear from Bimmers or Mercedes and has the biggest baddest V8 around. To me these are PH like statements, made by ones bottom side that the mouth can't cash. If you are going to poke jabs at peter about the CCCA and the classics he should at least know what he is talking about to some degree. I get to turn the wrenches on the Chevelle and Packard once in a while but not as often as I would like. You have to read and keep up with the history so that you are not mislead by people like Peter who only tell one side of the story to benifit thier view with out telling the whole story. Thursday night I give you an example of what I mean and tell the whole story why firms such as Mercedes and BMW where able to come back after the WW II.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

for a long time now i've been thinking about adding a topic to the 'General Forum' at the top of this site titled '55/56 Packards are Junk'. It would be for anyone and everyone that wants to critsize these models or the owners so that the whole world can hear about it. No techinical help allowed tho. AND I"M SURE that anyone posting to it would not have any help to offer either.

I'll make sure that thread is kept alive and well by constantly updating it with somekind of dummy post just like i have done with the '1965 PackardV12' fiasco from time to time. That reminds me. I need to resurrect that thread.

[6219_Rules]

Did any of you see the topic I opened sometime ago...maybe a week or two...about the 1950 Packard sedan I saw in Denver for sale? They only wanted $6990 for it. It was in about the same shape as my Cadillac, though I do not know if the engine runs..I assume it does. I would love to have that car, with its Cormorant, in my care. Unfortunately I can not do it. I know very little about Packards other than what I read in this forum, but given that, I would cross lines and buy one if I could. I love my Cadillacs. They are solid, well built cars with a lot of interesting lines and features. I think it would be nice to have both. Maybe someday.

[Constellation]

To All,

Why I bought and proudly own a Packard is because I love the make. Granted the 55's are handicapped and by all standards the 56's were not the best cars to be ever Assembled. However, having grown up with Packards and the admiration you have for them, you tend to work around some of the short comings the 55 and 56 Packards have.

I wouldn't say they were Junk, but they were far from the best cars ever made and thats the truth. If anyone can appreciate the very trying circumstances under which these cars were made they'd know what I'm talking about. Try this on for size.

1. They were built on the Shortest Assembly Line in the Industry.

2. The R & D on them was nickled and dimed to a major extent by rushing the major components into production.

3. Quality Control was almost non existant.

4. The Morale of the Workforce was the lowest in Packard History, the only reason they turned out as well as they did is because some people still cared.

5. Top Management that did not have a handle on or any Idea of how a car was supposed to be built.

In concept they were great Cars. They had many inovations designed to sell Cars. This is what lead to Packards Demise. The icing on the Cake was all Fluff. The inovations were not tested in the ultimate end and thats with the public prior to Manufacture. There were too many shortcuts and it showed up.

Take a Packard made in 1953 like my brother's Clipper. The Quality of construction is 1000% better. When you compare the Two cars. Both are 2 doors, both are 122" wheelbase, and in reality the same body and chassis. Its glaringly seen. The 53 wins hands down. I love the 53, it reminds me of my Dad's '51. The Car that I grew up with.

Bob

[Guest]

i bought my first Packard just this year. It is a model I have admired since seeing them as a boy 50 odd years ago. I grew up not far from Packard's plant in Detroit and my grandfather who I admired always claimed they were the best car made. He owned a 526 roadster and he had Barney Oldfield test drive it for him! I tried to join the Eastern Packard Club when I was 10 years old but they never even answered my letter. My interest has been a long term one and I'm a packard fan through and through.

I never bought one in the intervening years because of my job location ( Canadian Arctic) or my lower pay and family committments. Now I finally have my dream and I love it!

[Guest]

B.H....if you would read my "posts" more carefully, you'd find we really arent that different...I, too, had "modern" cars as mere "basic transportation"...all my life....I have always been an old car buff. The only REAL difference is the "accident of birth" putting me on this planet a few years before you got here.........the "modern cars" I drove as "daily drivers"....were PACKARDS !

Yes, rival mfgs. bought competitive cars on a regular basis, making elaborate reports on them. And, yes, the V-8 Packards had some VERY interesting ideas that really interested the auto engineering community of that era.

The electric motor compensated "torsion bar" suspension was brilliant in design - no wonder Chrysler was impressed with it. Did you ever see the Packard promotional film I described in an earlier "post"...?

Perhaps Chrysler engineers did see that promotional movie! It sure as heck would have shaken them up - the movie showed a new torsion-bar equipped Patrician going over a rail-road grade crossing at high speed, smoothly and unruffled...followed by various other luxury cars of the same price range (including a Chrysler...!)...all of which pretty much destroyed themselves when they buried their noses after wild uncontrolled pitch changes.

I did not see anything particularly interesting about the then new Packard V-8 -I am not aware of anything particularly revolutionary in its design. It did give competitve performance (for a while...until a couple of fast stop-light "starts" got the car towed back to the delivering dealer on a warranty claim....). You probably know all about the assembly-quality problems, such as the oil pump fiasco, that caused early failure of these motors in service.

Incidentally...think about this - whereas the Ultramatic was fragile, and crippled the performance of the car...(wonder what a MANUAL transmission Packard V-8, or Packard V-8 equipped with a Hydramatic would do...!) think about the atttitude Cadillac/GM had towards their Hydramatic. The Hydramatic came out in Cadillac for the 1941 model year, permitting a higher rear axle ratio, but, with its lower gears, splended and CONSISTANT "get-a-way". That automatic transmission was so rugged, they used a pair of them in TANKS ! Further refinements in the later "Dual Range" made it practically indestructable. THAT's the way you sell cars...get repeat business..and then sell MORE cars to keep the plant open.

(Incidentally, Cadillac DID have trouble when it introduced the "Jet-A-Way" Hydramatic (a whole different design, using "sprag" clutches instead of "bands") for the '56 model year...but they "got right on" to the problem...fixed it in a factory recall...FAST...and thus didn't leave a bunch of dis-satisfied customers "bad mouthing" the product, as Packard did.

Talk about a great business slogan that came around to "bite" the creators..."Ask The Man Who Owns One"........? NOT a good idea...in 1955 or 1956....!

But...nothing in this discussion should let you think I am critisizing you personally. You SHOULD buy, work on, and operate that which pleases YOU, and meets YOUR needs. That is exactly what I did when I was your age!. Listen to me...WE DID THE SAME THING !

Think about it....YOU...are really...a younger generation version of ME. In the early years of the Classic Car Club, people made the same kind of "fun" at us....as many people make over you and your post-war Packard. It never occured to us that our cars would be valuable..we got involved with the big Packards of the 1920's and '30's...because we personally LIKED them. You guys with '55 and '56 Packards think YOU have it rough with being teased...get real...you have NO idea how hostile the public was...to the big classics of the 1920's and the 1930's...when I was a teen ager in the early 50's.

So, again....YOU are the best arbitrator of what's good for YOU. Objectively, a '55 or '56' Cadillac is a far better car than a '55 or '56, and I'd prefer one of those... but SO WHAT ! Just be a little less sensitive about cool, dispassionate discussion as to historical fact. There are valuable lessons to be learned how Packard, after World War Two...led the American auto industry in its decline. I dont have a Toyotoa because I like Japs ! I have one because they are built the way we Americans USED to build our cars.......like we CARED!

Pete Hartmann

[bernardi]

Why did I buy a Packard? I've always admired Packards. My first one was a 1937 Super Eight sedan. Big, heavy, powerful, smooth riding and expensive to operate. The fabric roof was one of its short-comings. Never did get it watertight. After driving it a year or two, I gave it to a friend when I shipped out to Korea in 1953. He sold it before I returned, and I never saw it again..

In the late '50's I bought well used "55 Caribbean. It was a beautiful car, but both the engine and transmission caused problems. It became so expensive to run that I had to sell it.

A few years later, a '55 Patrician was up for sale and my wife gave it to me for a birthday present. I drove it several years before the Salt of Pennsylvania winters and general deterioration set in. It went into storage in a friend's barn which got flooded and pretty well ruined the car. \

In the mid '60's, I found a '55 400 in beautiful shape. It was cheap, partially because the transmission wouldn't go into direct drive. A former Packard dealer adjusted the bands and it never caused any trouble after that. I drove it about 50,000 miles before the oil pressure caused a problem A knock developed on the way to work one morning and my friendly American Motors dealer told me it would need a rebuild. Fortunately, sevral years earlier one of his customers had ordered a new engine for his Ambassador, then backed out of the deal. A brand new motor, still in the crate, went into my 400. As American Motors used only the Clipper engine, the car lost a bit of "get-up-and-go". I put the car in storage in the 70's, dorve it only once or twice in the 80-'s, and it is now awaiting renovation. Retirement caught up with me this year, so maybe next year it will be on the road. The engine has something like 5,000 miles on the clock, so I don't anticipate much work there. Too many toys, too little time and space.

Bernardi

[Guest]

Hi Brian !

Enjoyed your post...good...thoughtful, and well written. You already know our areas of disagreement, so I will not re-hash them here.

Hopefully, at some point in time you will be in northern arizona, look me up...so I can take you out in the Twelve for "CLASSIC" lunch ( "Classic" chicken washed down with "Classic Coke".......! )

Yeah.your post brought back old memories...Damn..so THAT was the title " SAFE ROAD AHEAD".....thanks...man..I havn't see that for FORTY YEARS...shows the rest of you how neat it was..and how strong the impression it made on a then young car-buff..who was HOPING it would save Packard.

But it didn't...and that was the "bottom line". Yes..you are right..I knew some of those mid-level Packard employees..(as well as some assembly-line guys...) ( I presume they are all long since pushing up daisys..) .and I know how hard they worked to try fight against what upper management was doing.

Yes, of course I know that Packard was an "assembled" car out of bits and pieces they bought, mostly from GM and/or "captive" GM suppliers. I did work on a few T/L equpped cars when they were just late model used cars, so I do have a ROUGH.....idea of how the system worked, and what its problems were. And of course I know that Packard did not invent T/L, nor was it the only one to use it. I am NOT familiar with later applications in other mfgs. I am aware that no-one before or since has tried such a marvelous (and, as we agree...difficult from a manufacture/service standpoint) integrated system.

As for transmissions, you are relatively new to this forum, so you may not have seen my earlier confession...hell..man....I am scared to death of working on automatics...every time I have dis-assembled one and tried to fix it..I have "panicked", given up on the complexities, and taken it to someone who knows what they are doing....!

As an odd personal side-note, as bad and as fragile as those Ultramatics were, our family personally did not have much trouble with them. Of course we knew to drain/change the ATF fluid once a year - and we knew to try not to "load" the direct-drive "lock up" clutch....perhaps that is why we personally didn't have THAT much trouble with them.

As much fun as it is to contemplate what would have happened had Packard simply ordered those much more durable, and MUCH better performing HydraMatic transmissions for its cars, rather than go off on the tangent it did.....the sad fact is...given their determination to self-destruct on the "build quality" issue.. I remain convinced my earlier "posts" summarize what would have been the "inevitable".

As a side note, the Packard knee action introduced on the "small" Packards in '35 and the big ones in '37, was almost as revolutionary for its day, as the T/L was in "your" day. It was only possible to go to IFS when better roads permitted it. ONE of the many ways the Packards of the late 30's were superior to the Cads of that era, was their ability to combine the smooth "boulevard ride" possible with IFS, with the incredible durability and roadability of the front suspension they called "Safe-T-Flex". I certianly wouldnt try and follow, with my '38 Packard V-12, a mid 1950's Packard T/L equipped car over that rail-road grade crossing in the movie...but...when you come by for your "Classic Chicken" lunch..I think you WILL get a kick out of how well it does on the truly horrid roads we have to go to, before getting out on the paved main highway....

Pete Hartmann

1998 Sears Riding Mower....

[Guest JT]

To my wife and family it looks like I bought a Packard to take apart and work on. They tend to ask when are you going to get it running without realizing what joy there is in rebuilding piece by piece over a long period of time. Here's a shot of my engine about to go back in, this week I hope! The head is temporarily on until I get it back in frame at which time I'll complete torquing and painting.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

"And of course I know that Packard did not invent T/L, nor was it the only one to use it."

So who ELSE used it?????

[Guest]

I could be mistaken, but I remember reading that the torsion level system used by Packard was originally developed for Hudson. However, Hudson didn't have the resources to implement the system and It was eventually adapted by Packard. So, ultimately it wasn't a system that started with Packard but had to be adjusted to fit the larger Packard cars.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Yes, thats true that it was developed at Packard by a former Hudson engineer.

BUT, i do not know of ANY other manufacturer past or present that actually put it into PRODUCTION.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

If i'm not mistaken, i believe it was Packard that pioneered torsion bar suspension sometime in the late 30's???? Torsion BAR suspension is not to be confused with torsion LEVEL suspension.

[Guest JT]

Chrysler of course used it on the front but was there another maker that used a system like the Packard/Allison?

[Guest JT]

oops,I guess I was typing while a couple of previous post came in and answered my?