Guest Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 I just read the article in the newest Buick Bugle on how to reseal a torque ball. <BR> If I saw my mechanic use a porta-power to move the rear end back rather than remove nine or ten more bolts (yea I know the two holding the springs to the differential are LEFT_HAND thread) , that car would be gone from his shop before he knew what hit him.<BR> I do not claim to be an expert on Buick rear end removal or torque ball sealing (I have only worked on 4 48 through 52 torque ball problems, however I can usually have the rear end loose the correct way (unbolted, not forced) in less than one hour. Why run the risk of bending the sway bar by forcing the rear end back when it is easier to do things the right way???<BR> Hope you do not mind my venting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Guy Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 If you will notice the BCA number of the man who wrote the article, you will see that he has been a member for less than a year! I have changed e few in my day too, and I would not recommend to anyone his system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
our51super Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Well I'm sorry if I offended you by trying to help others figure out this seemingly impossible task but when I was faced with this leaky torque ball I turned to the transmission specialist listed as a technical advisor. You know what kind of answer I got? I got this, and I quote: "You gotta have a manual", and then he seemed bothered that I even had the nerve to call him. Well I did have a manual and I tried to understand it but I thought speaking to a person who has done this would be more enlightening; it wasn't. I also posted the question on this web site and I don't remember getting any help from those who so easily knock my article. So I wrote up that article because I knew it would say more than anyone from this club could take the time to tell me about it when I had to do it. If you have additional information about this process why don't you submit what you know to the Bugle and let's get a technical manual published. It's easy to sit back and ridicule one's efforts but believe me it all worked fine for me and it will work on any other 1951 Buick just as well. That's why I listed the exact car and model that the work was performed on to ensure that no damage would occur. I received e-mails from all over the world regarding my procedure and all seem to be thankful that someone had the decency to document this elusive procedure and take the time to help. The whole process seems like a well guarded secret. As far as only being a member for a short while, I don't think that is a factor. You don't know who I am or what my life experiences have been. I have worked on many cars in my life (maybe not as many as you guys). So I'm in the club now and I will continue to try to help in any way that I can fellow members who know less about cars than I do. Believe me there are many car enthusiasts who love these old Buicks but never been exposed to working on them and rely on others to keep them running. Thanks for making a new member who is trying to contribute something to the club feel welcome. You know if younger people like myself didn't give a rats behind about old cars they would all be soda cans by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Crin, I'm 58 and have been a member only a little longer than you. I was an auto mechanic(wheeled vehicle mechanic, MOS 631.10)in the Army from '61-64 and as a civilian from then until '67 when I went into a different career field. I always have done all my own maintenance and almost all the repair work on my cars, pickups and motorcycles over the intervening years even though I wasn't doing it for a living. I thought your article on resealing the torque ball on your '51 Buick was EXCELLENT. It is the best and most down to earth and actually USEFUL article I have seen in the Bugle since I have joined. Thank you and don't be discouraged by postings like the ones above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
our51super Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Thank you for the vote of confidence. I really appreciate it. By the way I have the instructions posted at the following web page :<BR> <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/dimatnc/torque_ball.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/dimatnc/torque_ball.html</A> <P>By the way, removing the rear end was not omitted because I was lazy or because I didn't want to do it "the right way". I know that it only takes two left hand bolts at the bottom of the springs, two bolts for the shock links and disconnecting the emergency brake cable and a few other things, but I was able to eliminate that amount of work by using the Port-A-Power without risking any damage to the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Skyking Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Our51Super, I performed the same job on my 55 Special using the same techniques you used but instead of a Port-A-Power I used a small hydraulic jack and it worked fine. I don't know where these people above are coming from.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Crin, after I posted the message this morning I was reading over your feature in the Bugle and I noticed the oily fingerprints I left on the outer cover of the magazine when I was doing the 600 mile valve adjustment on my son's new Suzuki Bandit 1200 motorcycle this past Saturday. The fingerprints got there because I was using the cover to write down and check off the valves as I adjusted them to make sure I got them all(and didn't do any twice! <BR>Even though it's a 4 cylinder it is double overhead cam and has 16 valves). Anyway, this brought to mind the fact that most new motorcycles no longer have kickstarters(unlike my old early 70s ones)and since I had to disconnect two oil lines that feed oil into the camcover to lubricate the camshafts on this particular engine in order to remove the camcover I didn't want to use the electric starter to turn the engine because I might have created an oil bath through those disconnected lines. So what I did was upshift the transmission into 5th gear and turned the engine very slowly using the rear tire and got each rocker onto the heel of its camshaft lobe that way. Now admittedly the factory manual might say to remove the engine side cover and turn the engine with a wrench on the end of the crankshaft, but as you say, why do unnecessary work? I hope I don't get any irate posts from BCA members about my work methods for having taken this shortcut....actually I consider it working intelligently. Anyway, I hope we see more features in the vein of what you did in future Bugles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Guy Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 I just read the post again ,and I should have offered some constructive criticism instead of my remark. I am sorry if I have offended you. There are two places that I would suggest a change. First I would unhook the sway(panhard) bar ,as it is held by one bolt . This will guarantee that it won't be bent and the bushings will not be hurt. Second :I use a rachet tie down to stretch the springs as it is pliable and won't damage paint or chrome. On some Buicks the shock links must also be removed to allow enough movement without stretching anything. The only time I use the ratchet is if the bolts holding the springs are stubborn and I'm in a hurry( Which you are not ever supposed to be) I hope this is some additional help!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 The Old Guy is right. Perhaps I too was a little heavy handed....However a porta-power will (depending on which one) put out between 2- 10 tons of force, and its real easy to tweak somthing due to a missed bolt. A come-a-long or small jack is a lot kinder. Also if one does not drop the torque tube down out of the way, it can be difficult to set the right "drag" on the torque ball so that it isn't binding or too loose and pumping oil.<BR> The differential section on the 51 shop manual outlines the factory way to remove the rear end. <BR> And I again agree with the old guy..pull the pahard rod, it gives you a good excuse to check the bushings;;<BR> cooling off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Hi Crin, I got a 55 that I have been through the wringer with as far as learning tricks about this ,that and the other...I have heard about using a come a long to pull the unit back to do work on it or the trans...I think it is great to post the article in the Bugle(I havent seen it). In spite of some who choose to chew you up one side and down the other about your way...not to worry...we all have different levels of knowledge and all have different ways of doing things according to our knowlege of our particular car(s). I pulled the unit from my 55...one huge and VERY heavy/awkward unit....but I had mine out in about 30-45 minutes....wire brushed/WD-40ed everything a couple days before...the biggest fear about doing the unbolt and roll back is the fact the brake line may die....mine almost did....I am a young guy,both physically and at heart and this is my 1st venture into the 50's as far as my cars go....the only thing I could think of that may of hampered you is that I have heard the flex brake line is not long enough to survive the pull back without being undone....otherwise either way would work....<BR> To those who have given him a hard time....don't because there may be something you don't know how to do he may have experience and a superb way of getting it done that you were not aware of....Remember, we are ALL here to HELP each other by giving advice and swapping parts,cars,etc.<BR> In my opinion, if he is young and into what many(like my dear old Dad) call an "old mans car" he is okay by me...the first thing my Dad said when he saw my 1st 66 Wildcat conv. was he called it a big boat...needless to say we are very different on our tastes of cars but I am damn proud of the fact that I and alot of young guys are into Buicks...and not just the A-bodies....<P> This got long...sorry, but me being young, I couldnt keep my fingers still on this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Bravo Crin, I thought it was a helpful article. I will have to do the job on 2 different cars eventually. <BR>Another thing I respect a heckuva lot is that you put your wife's name with yours on your posts. That is so great, hope she loves your '51 like you do<P>1947 71<BR>1951 76R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 "Nobody COULD insult me but a gentleman,and he WOULDNT" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 An absolutely great way to change the clutch too. You don't even have to disconnect the torque ball connection on a 53 Special. I was working for GM at the time and put 4 clutches in mine one summer when I was raceing it. Stopped raceing and got 200,000 miles out of the last clutch. It was methods like this that let mechanics on flat rate make 12-18 hours in an 8 hr day.<BR>Reid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Cin,<BR>While I don't have an old a Buick as you or some of the others here (mine is a 66 Lark vert) I applaud your article and I thank you for taking the time to write it and proofread it.<BR>I've written more than a few technical articles (I'm 54) about such matters and they have always been well received as yours was.<BR>Thanks for the article.<BR>Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
our51super Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 First I'd like to thank you all for your support. I tell you I was really bummed out when I saw the initial postings. Teresa and I were discussing all of your replies and she thought it would be a great idea if we all pool our technical experiences together. What we suggest is that we all write about things we have done to our cars in the past. I would volunteer my time to sort these procedures into different years and models and form some kind of technical manual which would contain articles sorted by subject areas such as a shop manual is. It may contain for example 15 experiences on how to change a fuel sender or replace a timing chain. In other words let everyone write in how they did it and let the person who is faced with the task combine all of the club members' experiences and come up with the best way for them to do it. Like I said I would volunteer to sort all these experiences and group them into topics like, general, body, frame, front end, rear end, brakes, etc... I know it would be a LOT of work but can you imagine how difficult it would be for us in the long run trying to figure out how to do some of these things if we the less experienced don't learn from the more experienced. I once had a bad generator that wouldn't charge and when I went to a local garage for some quick advice/ideas as to where I might start, I was told to find a 60 year old guy who knew this system?!? That kind of stuff really worries me as I hope to be in this old car hobby for a long while and I would truly love to know what you guys, that have had the good fortune of being around these cars for alot longer than me, know. <P>If we get positive feedback on this idea I will take it upon muself to contact Bob Snowden the Bugle editor and see about posting a "call for technical papers" as a perpetual running thing in the Bugle. This way we all have a way of telling each other our ways of doing things and hopefully contribute something substantial.<P>Please let us know.<P>Oh by the way for those who like that I include my wife's name in the postings I have to tell you that without Teresa there would be no old car hobby for Crin ... she bought me a 1957 Cadillac Coupe de Ville for one of my birthdays... that was our first "oldie" car ... What can I say, I got the right girl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Brink Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Crin,<P>Your method will work on a '54 Super too although one does have to disconnect the shock linkage or it will break (probably hard to find now - under $2 when I was young and replacing Dynaflows with an alarming regularity in the early 60's). Did it with panhard rod connected and disconnected and it certainly moves easier with it disconnected.<P>Thanks for taking the time to share your experience with everyone.<P>Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 No problem to figure out who will be our new BCA president!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 We used to pull that there rear end back with a yoke of oxen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 We all need to keep in mind that we're all trying to help each other here. And, that the BCA Tech Advisers spend a great deal of time and money trying to help members with questions. BCA Tech Advisors are NOT reimbused for postage, copying, telephone or any other costs. They are contributing their time and expertise to help those of us who are TRYING TO LEARN about our older Buicks.<BR> Remember folks, we're all trying to have fun and help each other. But safety has to come first.<P> Crin and his wife also deserve recognition for taking the time to write up a fairly complex process and one that is unique to our older Buicks. <P> However,I was recently given the following information from the 1951 Buick shop manual that anyone removing a torque tube needs to be aware of:<P>1951 Buick Service manual,page<BR>135,paragraph 4-12 "Correct adjustment of the torque ball is very<BR>important.If the ball is loose and has end play it will be noisy and act<BR>as a pump to cause leakage of transmission lubricant.If torque ball is<BR>too tight,it will cause transmission misalignment,scoring the ball and<BR>retainers,and may cause breakage of bolts which attached torque ball to<BR>torque tube."<P> If the connection between the torque tube and the torque ball/tranny breaks, the brake hose is history-so are your brakes. I don't know 51's at all, but on my torque tube Buick the emergency brake cable would tear off as well as the hydraulic brake line since both are attached to the torque tube/rear end assembly. Once that driveline connection to the transmission has broken, there is little holding the torque tube/rear end assembly attached to the car. And, due to it's size and weight, the torque tube/rear axle's exit from the car will be dramatic to say the least.<BR> Most of our cars are driven calmly and gently and MAYBE none of them would ever encounter a situation placing enough stress to cause this disaster to occur. But, sometimes we encounter road/traffic conditions while driving our antiques that require unplanned and dramatic actions. A 5000 pound, two wheeled Buick with NO BRAKES is not something I want to be driving OR see coming down the road toward me.<P> Will this happen to anyone, hopefully NOT. But it COULD happen to someone. That's why BUICK chose to emphasize the point in the official shop manual.<BR> As I said, I do not own a Buick from this era, but mine do have torque tube drivelines. Immediately after the article appeared in the Bugle, I and others began receiving calls from people concerned that the need to have the correct shim thickness was not contained in the article.<BR> Like all of you, I want to see as many tech articles in the Bugle as possible. But, article writers have to be careful not to accidently omit something that could cause a severe accident to occur. None of us is perfect and no one can know everything. WE need to thank those people like the "old guy" who are always willing to share their knowledge to help the rest of us along.<BR> I am NOT a tech advisor and have had no involvement with this issue. I want to thank the person who supplied the information from the 1951 Buick Shop manual that was quoted above. He wishes to remain anonymous, as do I, but he has given countless hours to helping Buick owners around the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
our51super Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 I just wanted to mention that the way I addressed the proper drag on the torque ball issue is by using the same thickness shims/gaskets as was originally there. I assumed that the proper drag was set at the factory and that should not be altered. The sealing kit comes with a variety of gaskets/shims of different thicknesses and I thought that by mentioning "use the same gasket as was originally there" would suffice in obtaining the proper drag on the torque ball.<P>Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 The 2x4,Oak? Walnut? Cedar? Lets be SPECIFIC ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2001 Share Posted August 25, 2001 Lets get a pro writer to expand on the Suzuki bit .It could probably be turned into a two-page item in the Bugle,so nearly 38000 BCA ers would get the benefit of it instead instead of just a few of us who have computers ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2001 Share Posted August 26, 2001 RIGHT ON MAN !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
our51super Posted August 27, 2001 Share Posted August 27, 2001 Oswald,<BR>I would definately use the Cedar 2x4. The reason is that it keeps the bugs away ... <BR> and nobody likes bugs crawling all over them when they're sealing a torque ball ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 My mother always told me "A little learning is a dangerous thing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 Someone should have read the manual to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 2, 2001 Share Posted September 2, 2001 = Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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