Photo - hubcap

[Peter Gariepy]

From: "mrinvicta" <mrinvicta@cox.net>

To: <peterg@aaca.org>

Date: 02/06/2003 04:13 PM

Subject: Fw: Hey Bob, What Year and make are these Hubcap Centers?

Dear Peter, I would like to post this photo on the aaca forum to find out what year & make these center caps are for. I don't know how to place an attachment on the post or else I would do it. Much help would be

appreciated....Thank You (Skyking)

----- Original Message -----

From: <RRon350@aol.com>

To: <mrinvicta@cox.net>

Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:01 PM

Subject: Hey Bob, What Year and make are these Hubcap Centers?

[Dave@Moon]

I can't find an exact match, so I'm not sure of the year. However, that appears to be the Chrysler Windsor lion from the 1955-1961 era.

[Tom Deering]

My knee jerk reaction is: '62 and/or '63 Ford full size. They got into that red, white, & blue encircled lion for a very short time and abandoned it.

Yes Dave, it is reminiscent of the golden lion used by Chrysler in the late '50s and early '60s. Perhaps that explains the relatively short usage.

Tom

EDIT: The stylized lion used on this wheel cover center is definitely the Ford version. It was first incorporated into various Ford emblems beginning with the 1950 model. The wheel cover ornament as shown, was only used for one or two model years.

[Dave@Moon]

In <span style="font-style: italic">90 Years of Ford</span> it's too hard to tell if any of the wheel centers are lions or not, I can only remember a wide crest. The '62 wheel centers had a dark background. The '63 used a light or gold background, but the color bands in the photos are too narrow to match this center. Were there other optional wheels from this period not shown in the Crestline book?

Was it Chrysler or Ford that used to use these lions in stacked groups of three?

[Dave@Moon]

I thought it was a deluxe wheel cover center from a 1959 Galaxie!

However, now that I posted this photo in a large size it appears that the red/white/blue sections are painted instead of translucent plastic.

I know I've seen these wheels somewhere. Could they have been optional on 1960's?

[Guest Skyking]

Dave, when my brother sent me this photo last week, first thing that came into my head was Chrysler, 300, Newport or New Yorker, but viewing your photo changed all that. It sure looks like the one on that 59 Ford. Is that little lion in the center the same as in my photo? I can't see it as well on my screen........

[Tom Deering]

Dave,

The Ford coat of arms that was most prevalent in the '50s had three stylized lions on it. One toward the upper left, the second toward the upper right, and the third was centered at the bottom.

The Chrysler lions that I remember were in an extended leap profile.

The wheel cover shown in your photograph was not a 1960 issue. There was only one full wheel cover used in '60 full size cars. It had a plain conical center with embossments toward the periphery.

I am 90% sure the subject wheel cover center was used on '63 full size cars. Yes, there were frequently two or more wheelcovers available in additon to model specific designs, or spinner, or simulated wire variants.

When I speculated that this might have possibly been used in '62 also; it was because I wasn't sure of the XL wheel cover center. The XL was a Spring season model introduction and I'm sure it carried the smaller center wheel cover as used on other Galaxies.

There surely has to be some one out there with an authentic '63 to confirm this. Funny thing about this wheel cover controversy; I bought new Galaxies in '62 and '64 with a new Impala thrown in for '63. All three had the little dog dish hub caps with wheel trim rings! Wheel covers weren't COOL.

Tom

[Guest Skyking]

Tom, how do you explain Dave's photo? That's a 59', and it seems to have one lion & red, white and blue like you said in your previous post.

[Tom Deering]

Sorry Guys,

The wheel cover on the continetal kit on the rear of that '59 Ford is unlike anything I ever saw. It doesn't begin to match the stock wheel covers on 24 different '59 Ford photos that are in my books. I suppose it is possible that there is some obscure Ford Accessory cover that this '59 owner found. But---

Tom

EDIT: Just looked at some full wheel covers on E-Bay. It is NOT a '63 Ford. The red, white, & blue circular segments surround an elongated Ford crest rather than a lion. I still have a problem using the photo of the modified '59 to authenticate the wheel cover.

[Dave@Moon]

Tom,

Those wheel covers are on about half the cars illustrated in the photo galleries of www.59ford.com and www.galaxieclub.com . The rest have a plain centered wheel cover with similar edging that is more familiar to me. Some of the photos look <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> much like the center in question. However, the one on the Continental kit looks more like painted metal than it does (which may be because it's different from the four road going wheel covers, or it could just be the lighting of the photo).

Here are the three best other examples I could find:

<span style="font-style: italic">The Standard Catalog of Ford</span> doesn't list a deluxe wheelcover option, but clearly there must have been one (or at least a <span style="font-weight: bold">very</span> highly accepted aftermarket/dealer option piece). I seem to remember reading w few years ago about a very rare optional wheel cover for the 1960 as well, perhaps in <span style="font-style: italic">Collectible Automobile</span> or <span style="font-style: italic">SIA</span>. The background in the '59 center seems to be a more pure white, and the color bars look painted. Perhaps this center is for the 1960 wheel cover.

The '63 wheel center definately had thinner color bars than this, and clearly (at least for all the photos I've found) had the wide "crest" motif at it's center.

[rocketraider]

I've seen these on 1959 Fords and 1959-60 Thunderbirds. I don't ever remember seeing them on a 1963 Ford, though they used the red/white/blue scheme with a stylized crown in the center plastic- and the crown had three of these lions passant guardant (heraldic terms for crouching with one paw claws outstretched and facing viewer as if guarding the family arms). I believe 1962 XLs had a different version of these as center for the standard full wheelcover, with the lion on a black background.

Ford used the lions as early as 1950 on their tri-colored shield badges- a lion in each color division.

Emblems for connie kits were often different than the wheelcovers.

Chryslers had a golden lion rampant- standing on hind legs with paws raised in fighting position.

Yes dammit, heraldry is another interest.

[Tom Deering]

Dave,

I believe you have this nailed down tight! You do good work! I checked my 1949 - 1959 FOMOCO Parts and Accessories catalog and found something interesting for '59s. In the Ford part numbering system, wheel covers are P/N 1130 with a variable prefix and suffix for various applications. For the '59 only, there is a Wheel Cover Trim kit P/N B9A 1129-A shown. This kit includes (4) B9A 1127-A plastic trim pieces. These B9A 1127-A pieces must be the items in the photo that Peter G posted.

Unfortunately, the illustrations book doesn't show this item; so there is still some guesswork going on.

Glenn, thanks for popping in and properly naming these heraldic figures. Very enlightening and interesting.

A big Thank You to you GM guys for keeping a Ford guy on the straight and narrow!

Tom

[Guest Skyking]

Thanks to all for the info on these center caps in question. My brother found these at a yard sale in Florida 3 years ago. They are NOS in perfect condition. Tom I will find out if there are any numbers on them, maybe something that will match up with your numbers. Dave the red, white & blue are plastic inserts. Maybe like you said the one that was displayed on the continental kit would have been different than the 4 on the wheels......They did crazy things back then..

[Tom Deering]

There is an interesting sidebar to this thread that has been previously mentioned in the Judging section of of this DF. That is: When people restore cars they overload them with period correct accessories that very few people had ever seen when the cars were new. I suspect that may be true here. You will notice both Dave and I used reference books loaded with archive photos. None of these archive photos showed the subject trim item. It wasn't until Dave researched an Internet site (plus his own photo from a car show ?) that the uncommon trim piece started to appear with regularity.

Many times when looking at post war cars at a show, and seeing all the tissue dispensers, I wonder; "Was this whole generation plagued with post nasal drip ? I certainly don't remember them being so common when the cars were new.

Sort of drifted off topic here. Perhaps this could be the subject for a new thread. By the way; has anyone ever seen Woodlites on a Model A? They were contemporaries.

Not sure it would look any more out of place than a '50s land barge with a continental kit.

Tom

[Guest Skyking]

Tom, very interesting indeed....I found out there isn't any white at all on the caps. The background behind the lion is silver, also one insert is silver. There isn't white anywhere on it. There is a number....4146168. My brother looked at Dave's photo of the 59 Ford and said they look the same.

[Guest]

Hey guy's thanks for all your input and research. I just wanted to make note that the center of these caps are silver, the same as the outer above portion shown in the picture, there is'nt any white, just Red, Blue, Silver with a Gold Lion. These caps are 6 3/8" in diameter, thanks again for all your help!

[Guest]

Hey guy's, just to let everbody know, the center caps are 59 Ford Skyliners, thanks again for your help!

[Guest MissMy69FirebirdRagtop]

Thanks to all for the info on these center caps in question. My brother found these at a yard sale in Florida 3 years ago. They are NOS in perfect condition. Tom I will find out if there are any numbers on them, maybe something that will match up with your numbers. Dave the red, white & blue are plastic inserts. Maybe like you said the one that was displayed on the continental kit would have been different than the 4 on the wheels......They did crazy things back then..

Hi I just checked out this sight for the first time. So my information is rather late (O: I purchased this wheel cover trim set at a yard sale. So i still have original box and screws. On the package it says FoMoCo Genuine parts. The box is B9A-1129-A. And with the set comes two chrome caps. With a center cap which inserts into it with its original screws. Its for a Ford. Center is silver with Gold Cougar and Red Blue and silver on outside. Its for a ford. I thought it was for a mercury Cougar but not sure of the year. I was just gonna list them on ebay. I assume they are 59 -60? Now i see above listing saying 59 ford skyliner? Geee never heard of that car (O: