"Never say never" when it comes to what is "correct" on the car.

October 31, 2000

The thread on Staples or clips to hold the splash sheilds prove the point....don't be a "Freelance" judge when you look at a car...unless you have researched the subject for years you just can't say. On plant did it different, that is pretty stange, but true.------------------ buickfam@aol.com Life long Buick Fan. 1965 Skylark H/T 1965 Gran Sport Convertible 1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

BUICK RACER · October 31, 2000

You absolutley right, even today, with 4 or 5 assembly plants building the same vehicles, they made not use the same manufacturers part's, or the same assembly process, which makes them different. It is alot closer now then back when the plants were alot more automonous on where the parts came from. This is very true of fasteners, bolts, nuts, screws etc, called standard parts, that could be acquired locally at a lesser cost. Having parted out over 10 Buicks, all from different plants, and worked on more than that, and over 20 years in the GM assembly plants, I have stressed these comments at almost every BCA National meet. Like the topic says "Never say Never!" ------------------ Roberta BCA TREASURER 2000-2001 BCA PRESIDENT 1998-2000 BCA VICE PRESIDENT 1997-1998 WEBMASTER Director-Michigan Chapter- Gran Sport Club of America 1989-Present http://www.geocities.com/buickracer 1956 Special 2 door Sedan 1966 Wildcats 1968 GS-400 Convertible 4-speed 1970 GSX Stage 1 1970 Skylark Racecar - 11.26, 118 MPH, 7/22/00 1986 GN, 4800 miles

NTX5467 · October 31, 2000

The issue of "what is correct" is much more open-ended than many enthusiasts/hobbiests might suspect. Even with the assembly line where they are supposed to all be the same, there will be differences.Some of these differences can relate to on-the-line substitutions to keep the line running. Others can relate to different vendors/suppliers which are near the particular assembly plant. And then there are the particular "running changes" made during the production cycle.In addition to these issues, the parts which GM or ACDelco furnished as factory/OEM replacement parts for warranty/general repair later in the vehicle's life could well be significantly different than the original. Even the liscensed GM Restoration Parts might be different--depending on which blueprint they used during the particular part's history.While each manufacturer has its "assembly manual" (which you can buy reproductions of from some literature vendors), these indicate much about the vehicle's assembly (i.e., hose clamp positions, lubricants, paint, options). But the other key issue is how the line person actually puts the vehicle together and the inspector "marks" acceptance of such.On the issue of inspection markings and stamps, these are used to signify the fact that the particular assembly operation has "passed inspection". While the particular colors might be standardized for each component area, they possibly can vary. Just as the position and "aiming" of the inspection stamp. It all depends on who does it, at which plant, and which shift.In some cases, paints can vary in shade. Each plant has its dedicated paint vendor who is supposed to mix the paint to a particular formula. But if a vehicle is made in two different plants (i.e., 70s Camaro/Firebirds) the vehicles with the same paint code might not be the exact same color. This happened with the multitude of gold Firebirds in the late 70s--the GA plant gold was several shades off from the CA plant. This was not particularly noticeable when the cars were apart, but very noticeable when the cars were side by side or when "factory pack" paint was used when repairing/spot painting the vehicle.The best thing is to carefully clean and disassemble the vehicle (for restoration) and carefully document all of the various aspects of the vehicle--paint/inspection marks, colors of components, relative gloss of the colors, if a part is "natural" or "coated", fasteners, and determine which were original and which were not. Then, upon reassembly make sure all of the inspection marks, etc. are duplicated as they originally were on the particular vehicle. This will be easy to do with the photographic documentation you have built for the vehicle. This detailed documentation can later serve to prove how your particular vehicle was in its original state.Many enthusiasts/hobbiests don't understand what all of those funny markings were or mean. Therefore, they just paint over it. In so doing, they loose much of the originality of the restoration (remember the orientation toward "end of the assembly line" vehicles?) and possibly use the incorrect paint also. They want to make it look better than it did originally--"over restoration". Such might play well to the indoor show crowds, but not to the people who like to see painstakingly correctly restored vehicles. Just depends on which "game" you want to play. In all cases, the correct vehicle (with detailed documentation of the restoration process)will typically be the better long term investment. It takes more effort to get there, but it's worth it from my observations.The key is not to use the "they weren't all exactly the same" orientation to do something inappropriate in restoring/reconditioning the vehicle. It is good to make use of more modern materials in many cases or take a few liberties from a preservation/deterioration standpoint, just so long as they don't detract from the "original" aspect.Enjoy!

November 1, 2000

NTX5467, Just a little story about the '86 Grand National I purchased new, for my wife. Yea, it's really HER car. lol Anyway, after about 4 washes, I noticed that the was always dusty looking just after the wash. Hmmmmmm. A closer examination revealed that the front fenders were also dusty looking. Hmmmmmm. No amount of wiping would make it go away. Further checking revealed that the doors wern't dusty. Time to bring out the magnifying glass. OK. Major discovery here.The entire front end was painted with metallic black paint. The body was painted in regular black. Hmmmmm???? The body was delivered to Flint from another plant and assembled there. The front end was painted at Flint. After going through the Better Business Bureau arbitration (pronounced agravation)process, I decided that I really didn't want the local Buick Dealer to repaint it in their shop. I knew how that paint would hold up after 15 years. I really wanted a new front end from Flint bolted on to the car, I figured I paid for a factory paint job and they screwed it up, they should fix it. Yea, naive!!!!The bottom line was that I left it original as it came from the factory, metallic black front end and regular black body. It's all a mute point now, as the car was stolen 3 years ago (and we still miss the original one). Did I say original one??? Yea, we replaced it with another '86 GN as no new Mustang, Camaro or Vette could compare. Love our Buicks!!!!!! ------------------ George C. Thomas 70 GS 455 12.teens 86 GN Low 13's/ high 12's

November 1, 2000

HI George, My 87 GN has a metallic body and the front end it regular black! Wanna switch parts...LOL just kidding. Always wondered how that happened, but your story makes a good point. Cars are a business and manufacturers will put whatever they can get on a car to get it out the door. I sure wouldn't want to be the guy to tell a plant manager that cars couldn't be shipped out because we couldn't get the same screws or clips that other plants were using. Regards, Mark

November 5, 2000

Several thing I dislike about many restored cars are:Personalized licence plates. When did most old cars come with anything other than run of the mill tags? Over restored look. A car that has a billion dollar paint job and is so detailed it looks like a 100 point rod. Accessories,accessories,accessories. Really now. How many 57 Chevrolets had a/c,pw and all that? Correctness.I mean,is it THAT important? There seems to be way too much emphesis on correct. So a car is a different color,so what.So the seats are different material. So what.I think aftermarket is fine and it would probably encourage more people to fix up more old cars.Perfectionism seems to be a disease and many people think that if their stuff doesn't measure up, they don't measure up. I hope everybody realizes that that is not true. (there really is no boogy man) Judgement. I notice that way too many hobby people seem t be offended by any thing other than some cherry looking car,especially if it isn't "correct". It's like they take it personally. Over valued.Way too many people would even get rid of their "prize" rather than leave it out,let it get a ding in the parking lot or any thing else that happens to a car in the real world.Hey,I love beaters,4 door sedans,mis-matched hubcaps, cheap paint jobs, and rare, yet very undesireable cars.I drive my old cars in all weather conditions, hear alot of,"Why don't you give it a paint job?" And of course, the public seems to approve of my beater rides (I imagine, as I'm the one owning them, not them).Bottom line is we all need to lighten up. Mitch

November 5, 2000

Mitch, all I can say is don't include me in your post and I hope that you nor others think that I was refering to anything like what you say. To restore a car is the owners business, how accurate...is there business. What they intend to do with it....is their business. Mitch, somethings are just plain wrong like a Billit aluminum steering wheel in a restored '55 Century....or for that matter in a Chopped top accurate in every detail early 50's custom (or early 60's Kustom for that matter). I jokingly say that it is not subjective, but just plain WRONG, but it is up to ones personal preference.I will agree with you that I have seen way too many Fuelie '57 Vettes, more than were made! But....What I was refering to is a different thing.I just pointed out that on these cars that the owners have chosen to restore, DON'T pick it appart for not when something is "not quite right". Is Correctness that important..Damn right it is...if you have chosen to restore your car as close as possible to original. When you are talking about what people "chose" to do to their cars...like street rodding or customizing....there will always be disagreements on how they "should" have done it, because it is subjective. What I am talking about is NOT subjective...it is fact. I just wanted to point out if you don't know the "facts" don't mention it. ------------------ buickfam@aol.com Life long Buick Fan. 1965 Skylark H/T 1965 Gran Sport Convertible 1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

November 6, 2000

Martinsr,yes,it is everyone's right to do their car the way they want to and I am not trying to make you wrong and if it felt that way,I apologize.For me to see an old car done,or not done in any shape or form brings me joy because it is still here giving me the pleasure of viewing it.Today on the way home from the store ,I saw some guy driving a 64 Dart. Original paint with some nicks and a few dents. When he shifted,I really got a charge out of that! I read somewhere that the purpose of correctness is to preserve "historical significance". That can mean two things. One,as they shot off the assembly line and two, as the public got their mits on them.Even though it's old news that I don't place importance on correctness,I find it facinating studying how cars evolve from the showroom to pick your part. Cost,style change,wear,who owns what and how it is maintained are some factors in the chain. For example, many cars of the 50's and 60's used chrome hub caps and port-a-walls to jazz up a car that had poverty caps and black wall tires. Aftermarket vinyl tops with those anodized bendable mouldings were very popular.How many Chevys had that retro fit motor mount limiter strap streaching from the a arm to the block? And radios! When the stereo craze hit in the late 60's how many cars had that Kraco 8 track with the speakers cut in the door? That's what we knew and that deserves recognition too. It is absolutely correct as far as owner historical significance. Remember flock? Seat covers? Hickock seat belts? There was even a guy that came around to the car lots who fixed upholstry with baseball type stiching and staples.All of the things I have described were probably not near the quality of a quality ,original "oem" type repair,but hey,all that stuff worked too on some level or another. Mitch.

November 7, 2000

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by NTX5467: The issue of "what is correct" is much more open-ended than many enthusiasts/hobbiests might suspect. Even with the assembly line where they are supposed to all be the same, there will be differences.Some of these differences can relate to on-the-line substitutions to keep the line running. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Case in Point - I have a 69 Skylark 350-2 barrel low option car i bought from the original owner (83 yr old woman out of her heated garage) with 42,000 miles on the clock. Power steering, power brakes and AM radio along with the Custom interior are the only options. Along with the car came all of the sales paperwork, and a stack of receipts for every time the 'Lark was back to the dealership for servicing.The Car is a Non-AC car, Yet it has an AC vent on the passenger side of the dash pad (it has a flapper valve actuated by an "on-Off" thumb wheel on the base). Dash pad is a Non-AC piece. This is not a post car and has the "flow-through" ventillation system with the 2-pull knobs down by the kick panel on each side. The Driver's side is the correct piece without the flapper. All records show no work was ever performed on this and in asking the owner she said it was never in the shop for a repair of this kind. All indications are that as it went down the "line", they were out of Non-AC right side vents and simply installed what was in the next box - an AC vent.In the big picture who cares, right ?? But, since this car is pristine i've always wondered how this would be judged at a Concours event....if they even spotted it.Just curious what Y'all think

Dave@Moon · November 7, 2000

Hey, does this mean my Dad's old Dodge Volare (at least from the starboard side) has a shot? Also, my Dad's 1977 LeSabre ran on 7 cylinders for the first 9 months. If I were to restore that car to "factory correct", should I disable that cylinder?

November 7, 2000

I had a good buddy in high school who's Dad received a company car... 1968 Catalina it was, resplendent with a correctly color-keyed Bonneville dashboard.Imperfect cars built by imperfect humans....JMC

November 8, 2000

In addition to my 86 GN story (posted above), I took a '70 Stage 1 four speed car apart. I know it was truly a Stage car as it had #'s matching tranny and rear. Everything was correct including position and spacing for the emblems. The engine was a '72. They blew up the original engine?? OK, how do I prove it's really a Stage car now??, thought I. Simple, find the "build sheet". After dropping the gas tank and locating the sheet, I find that the car was "an A/C, Auto, 350 car. Scratching my head REAL hard now, I double check the serial #'s. THREE DIGITS OFF. They put the wrong gas tank on the car!!!!!!!!!! Grabbed the wrong tank and stuck it there, chit!!!! I had no way to prove the car as a Stage 1 now. What do I do?????? Parted it out. And put the 3.64 posi in my car. Oh Well............... I was luck enough to find that the original owner(a farmer)lived behind a friend of mine and he told him about the car. He spun a bearing in the car and replaced the engine with a '72. Never did find the engine. ------------------ George C. Thomas 70 GS 455 12.teens 86 GN Low 13's/ high 12's

November 8, 2000

Come on Thundrr, you and I know that never realy happened. How many "relance" judges would let you tell that one? This is just what I ment, anything can happen!------------------ buickfam@aol.com Life long Buick Fan. 1965 Skylark H/T 1965 Gran Sport Convertible 1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

November 8, 2000

Several years ago a close friend of mine acquired an L-88 motor to put in his 55 Chev hot rod . Turns out that it was out of a 67 Corvette.I asked if it were REALLY out of the 67 Vette and he did some checking and it was. This guy never * *s. After thinking it over,I almost had him convinced to hire a private eye and find that car it originally came from, because the car, even if it had been drug out of the river would be easily worth 6 figures plus with the motor.To make matters more interesting,this guy was a really good body&fender man who could have even done it himself. He never did. As of today, he sold the 55 and still has the motor which has worked over.Mitch's Motto on matching numbers: A 65 Gto without the original motor is a tempest but a Vette is still a Vette even with a 6 cyl.

NTX5467 · November 13, 2000

I concur that we all should appreciate the owner's wishes on how they have "done" their vehicles. Each of us have somewhat different resources (monetary and otherwise) to draw from when doing these things. Key thing is that we are all proud of what we have. The hobby is certainly big enough for all of these orientations.The degree of correctness each of us strive for depends on what we want to end up with. That can range from completely factory production correct to completely generic to ultra custom. Just depends on what part of the game you want to participate in.The degree of "incorrect" parts installed on the assembly lines is typically much less now than it was in the 50s-80s due to the decreased number of total combinations. Sometimes they are insignificant (as the Z-28 spec automatic shifter in my 77 Type LT Camaro) or more significant (as in the case mentioned above with the Skylark). Yet they existed. Sometimes, they tended to happen more during the "build out" period at the end of the production model year. Other times as the result of a similar part being at the line and needed to keep things going (like getting a Goodyear spare instead of a UniRoyal spare tire).One other thing is what happens to the vehicle after it leaves the assembly plant. If the car suffers some transportation damage, the transportation company typically would repair the damage prior to the vehicle being delivered to the dealer. Not to mention if it went to an outside vendor for additional equipment/modifications (as in the first T-tops in 1977). Then there's the issue of dealer-installed options. Some were GM and others were similar but generic. If the item was added as part of the sale, the dealership sales document should reference that. But if the dealer added some or body side moldings or a decal package "to make it sell better", then the customer believes "it came that way". In the either case, the long buried vehicle file would document that but damage repaired by the transport company would not be documented at the dealership level.Goes back to the documentation prior to restoration issue.I have seen vehicles which some have modified for whatever reason that would have been much more valuable if they were exactly correct or had been kept "unmolested". I have seen some cars made into race cars that were totally straight bodywise with no rust prior to being gutted and roll caged back when that particular vehicle was plentiful.In the case of muscle cars and others where "numbers match" defines the vehicle. Just like the only difference in a bare 302 Z-28 cylinder block and a generic 327 or 350 cylinder block (depending on model year) is the stamps on the block and the other engine parts attached to or installed in it. They were both 4 inch bore small block castings to begin with. If the original owner had the original block decked as part of a blueprinting operation, the numbers were machined off and that numbers match vehicle--even with all of its original parts intact--ceases to be "numbers match" unless there is another VIN/sequence stamp on the block in another location. In many cases, numbers match situations are important, but in others I feel they are somewhat overstated.Just depends on how you want to or can afford to play the game.Enjoy!

"Never say never" when it comes to what is "correct" on the car.

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