Was Packard the first to produce a V12

[Guest]

I will start off by saying not many of you will be interestd in this subject matter. i have been doing some reading and have been under the impresion that Packard was the first to come out with a 12 cylinder engine. Now i have learned that an auto firm called National in Indianapois Indiana produced a 12 cylinder engine of its own design. The engine was introduced to the public in May 1915, the same year packard introduced the Twin ix. I wonder which one was truly first to introduce a 12 cylinder car engine. Any body withany information on the National 12 cylinder engine please fillme in on it. The national was produced from 1915 until 1920. National called their engine the Highway Twelve

[Guest]

Excellent question, I have heard of the National, but can't find anything in my library. If you do not get further information on this question here, John, why not try the HCCA or the AACA general forum? Some of those guys really know the early stuff. My 1915 edition of Dike's names only the Packard, with pictures, and the Liberty engine, which Packard also had a hand in. That would also bring other aeroplane (spelling intentional) engine manufacturers into the picture. Whether marine or stationary engines go to 12 cylinders would also be interesting. Were the Blitzen Benz, an example is the Chitty Bang Bang, a surviving Blitzen Benz, (Note: only 1 Chitty)in the Cleveland museum 12 cylinders? One wonders about Hisso as well. My Encyclopedia of Engineering vol III on gas engines (1909) does not list anything above 6 cylinders.

[Guest]

The FIRST V-12 ?<P>A number of manufacturers introduced twelve cylinder motors in the 1914-1916 era. One of the two Packard club publications had an excellent story about the "first" Packard Twelve ( I trust you all know the Pacakrd "Twin Six and "Twelve" of 1932-1939 was a whole different and more sophisticated animal ). If Packard was not the first to make this layout commerically viable, it was certainly one of the first. The twelve cylinder layout from that day foward continued to be a preferred choice of high output high demand/durable engine for commercial-marine applications. With the invention of the rubber "isolater" type engine mount, multiple cylinders became unnecessary to get smoothness ( My Toyota RA - 4 with only FOUR cylinders but computer designed engine mounts is just as smooth..if not smoother than my Packard Twelve ! )

[VegetableMan]

Your question is one I dealt with fairly extensively this past month in preparing an article for publication at a site I edit for the Suite101 community. I found information on other V-12s beside the Twin Six and the National. It seems there were also a Weidely V-12 that emerged about the same time (slightly later, apparently) and an Enger ?Twin-unit twelve.? Details on their emergence, and which was ?first,? are still a little murky, but I continue to dig for information.

So far, all indications are that Packard was first, in as much as their chief engineer apparently hatched the idea, and put it into concrete form. But apparently others found out and tried to beat Packard into production with the idea. I don?t have any corroboration yet, but that would fit the typical competitive profile for business in general. Anyone with information or source material that would be relevant, please let me know, so I can dig in the right direction.

For some reason this thread chooses to label me as anomymous. This is my first post. I am Dan Cooper, and my identity at this site is VegetableMan. My article is posted at http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/vintage_classic_cars/114383.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

A Very Interesting and Informative article! Thanks, <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_Bill-W]

Weidley was an engine manufacturer that produced a side-valve V-12 from 1916 through 1920. It had a 2-7/8" bore with a 5" stroke for 389.5-cid. With a 3.6:1 compression ratio it put out 75 bhp @ 2,000 rpm.

Cars using the Weidley V-12 were :

Austin Highway 12 : 1917-1919

H.A.L. 21 : 1916-1918

Heine-Velox : 1921

Kissel Double-Six : 1917-1918

Pathfinder : 1916-1917

Singer 20 : 1920

The National Highway 12 was introduced in spring of 1915 and the engine was built by National. It was unique in that it had two camshafts with the valves on the outside of the cylinders. With a 2.75" bore and 4.75" stroke, the National V-12 was 338.4-cid. The V-12 was dropped for 1920.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

[Guest imported_Bill-W]

Found a little information on the Enger, which built its first V12 in 1915. Have not run across anything on the 1915 model, but for 1917 they had a V12 that could be run as either a six or a 12 by the flick of a lever on the dash.

The 1917 Enger Six-Twelve, as it was called, was an overhead valve engine with metal covers covering the valvetrain. The bore was 2.75" with a stroke of 3.5", for 249.3-cid. A very small V-12 which means the six was 124.7-cid.

The V-12 put out 55 bhp @ 3,000 rpm and had three main bearings! The convertion from 12 to 6 was done by closing shutters that cut off fuel to six of the cylinders.

The Enger died during 1917.

According to "Packard - A History of the Motor Car and the Company" (Princeton Publishing Inc., 1978) the Packard Twin Six was introduced to the public on Mat 1, 1915 (page 159). Production, however, began a little later.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

[ken50]

the american lafrance firetruck company also made a 12 cyl engine for cars and trucks..year unknown by me though but i have seen only one that was in the car at the factory when i worked there in the late 70's before they went belly up...

[Guest]

Mr. Cooper WELCOME. First of all how did you did up this thread?

As to who introduced the first V12 in 1915 is a question that I doubt that will ever be answered. I did some research at the AACA librrary about three years ago, and still don't have the answer. At the library I did find a sale brochure that they had on the Highway 12 by National, I had it copied and have in my library. If you would like a copy please let me know.

I read your article very interesting in some respects. Here are two more car that you can add to your list of V12 powered cars Daimler Double Six 30 and 50 series sleeve valve V12. Produced from 1926 till 1930. Lancia 1919 20 degree 7.8 litres 150 horsepower V12, few where ever produced. In the begining of your article

I think you give Cadillac way to must credit in some respects. Allthough in the 30's Caddy may have been the first to come out with a production V16 and V12. You plain ignore the king of kings of V16 or V12 engines the mighty Marmon V16 introduced in 1931 block and transmission cast out of aluminum total weight of 975 lbs, if my mermory serves me correctly. The Marmon was the first to use down draft carbs. This engine was rated at 200 horsepower and from what I understnad about the only thing that would outrun it,was the was the might Duesenber J, SJ, SSJ, JN models.

In the 30's Packard was the luxuary car leader allthough the 30's. I believe that Packard luxuary models out sold Cadillac luxuary models through out the 30's by about two to one. If you sit down and compair the Packard V12 with the Caddy V12 of the 30's the Packard V12 wins hands down. Cadillac during the 30's never produced the quality luxuary cars that Packard did. Having ridden in a Packard of the 30's and a Cadillac you notice the difference right way with Packard quality being much better. The only reason the Cadillac became the luxuary car leader after the 30's, was because Packard handed it to Cadillac on a silver platter, not because of the power plants that Caddy produced. Before the introduction of the overhead valve V8 by Caddy, the old Caddy V8 models all had a vibration problem at about 50 miles per hour, something that sure as heck you wouldn't find in the Packard straight eight or the V12 of the period.

John F. Shireman

Amateur Automobile Historian

[carbking]

No comment on who made the first V-12 (we show several in our files, but by year, not by day), however, a comment on the excellent post of Mr. Shireman in regards to the first use of a downdraft carburetor:

Marmon was not the first to make use of the downdraft carburetor.

The Marmon 16 used a Stromberg DDR-3 carburetor, assembly number A-14883 (2-bbl).

Hupmobile used a Stromberg DD-3 carburetor, assembly number A-13803 (2-bbl).

Chrysler used a Stromberg DX-3 carburetor, assembly number A-13373 (1-bbl).

Stromberg "coded" their carburetor models. The first letter (in this instance "D") was the basic model. If the first letter were repeated (in this case "DD"), that designated the carburetor as a two-barrel (a one-barrel was implied if the first letter was not repeated). The letter "R" mean "revised". In this case the DDR was a later revision of the DD. The number referred to the S.A.E. flange size, in this case size 3, which was a "nominal" 1 and 1/2 inch throttle bore. The letter "X" meant cross flange (a straight flange was implied if the letter "X" was omitted). The model "D" was Stromberg's first attempt at a downdraft carburetor, but certainly not the first downdraft carburetor.

Additionally, Stromberg numbered their carburetors sequentially. The A-13373 came out in 1929. The A-13803 came out in 1930, the A-14883 in 1931.

Who was the first to use a downdraft carburetor? I have absolutely no idea.

Jon.

[VegetableMan]

Thank you all for the warm reception and generous replies. I will try to address the comments you have made in this one post, at least at first.

To Rick L, thanks! I?m glad you enjoyed the article. I do an article per month for them. By all means, do come back again.

In answer to John Shireman (Packard53), I think I found this thread through a Google search, but at this point I can?t really remember for sure. Glad I found it, though, however it came to pass.

Although I didn?t have the information to offer any great detail on them, I did include the Lancia and Daimler V-12s in my timeline. Thanks for the pertinent details. I?ll find a way to use the data, along with that tendered by BillW (see below).

I must agree that the article was slanted a bit toward Cadillac, but that was intentional, with their recent entries in both the V-12 and V-16 markets?a trend repeated from 1931/32, and the general impetus for this article in the first place. I had a Packard Twin Six I was forced to sell, and the historical timeline idea sprang from that car?s presence in my life. Packard was on top, there is no question. I was forced to limit some of the information due to word count constraints (the article is still too long for the prevailing tastes on that Website). I did try to allude to the ?silver platter? you refer to, by mentioning how the Big Boys lost the edge in that top echelon after the Depression cut them to ribbons. Cadillac did inherit the leading role be default. I did not mean to imply that their engines, by themselves, were responsible for the marque getting to the top. By the way, I do have a question. Is there a single source I can peruse detailing sales figures in the industry during the 1930s for Cadillac, Packard, Pierce-Arrow, Peerless, Marmon, etc? Probably not. Another article I am planning will focus on the ?Three Ps of Prestige,? and I could really use those particular sales figures if I can get them.

And as for the Marmon, I perhaps should have mentioned it. But with space getting short, I decided that maybe another article at a later date, on 16s (in whatever configuration, including flat, V, H, or straight) might be in order. But then that still leaves out the powerful Duesenberg engine, just because it was an eight. I guess you can?t include everything in every venue.

For SamKens: Thank you! You are certainly right about me forgetting the LaFrance. I will research it and add it to the timeline.

For Bill-W: Thanks for the specifics on Packard?s introduction of the Twin Six, and for quoting your source for the information. Thanks, also, for the specs on the other three engines. Do you, by chance, have sources to quote for that info as well? It would be helpful, since my source gives different information for the Weidely engine (Encyclopedia of American Automobiles, Georgano, ed. [New York: Dutton], p. 93). And although it wasn?t called ?displacement-on-demand? back then (as Cadillac prefers to call it now), the same source credits Enger with having that feature in 1916.

Thank you all, very much, indeed. I hope to keep track of this forum, if for no other reason than for the rich information and assistance it appears to provide.

Oh, by the way: Why do you put only one "Chitty" with the Bang-Bang? Was the addition of a second Chitty a Hollywood edit, or am I even mistaken about the movie having an extra share of "chitty?" <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Dan Cooper

[Guest]

Jon: I first of all want to Thank You for correcting me about the Marmon V16, and being not the first to use adown draft carbs. I now stand corected and will remember you information that you posted. My response to Mr. Copper was done on the spur of the moment from memory, with out doing the proper research that I should have done

[carbking]

John - happy to help, and also very happy that you were not offended. We have custody of what Stromberg records remain. Wish they were better organized.

Jon.

[West Peterson]

Regarding the use of Downdraft carburetors: Marmon developed the use of downdraft induction for its 1927 "Little Marmon," or Model L, an eight-cylinder car. Ironically, its revolutionary dual downdraft intake manifold was fed by an updraft carburetor. This engine ultimately led carburetor companies to start building downdraft carburetors. I guess the question still goes unanswered, though, as to who used the first downdraft carburetor?