Starting Issue 1989

[Guest RedReatta1990]

Hard to start on first start of the day.  It takes 4 or 5 cycles of the ignition switch to finally get it to start, however, once it does start, all starts the rest of the day are normal.  Had a similar problem before that was caused by the fuel pump/check valves but that does not seem to be the problem this time.

 

Any ideas?

[Guest RedReatta1990]

Thanks, I'll give it a try

 

[Enoytsur]

Hi there ... in my opinion, change the Fuel Pressure Regulator. When the car sits for a while the fuel seeps put of the defective regulator thus there is not that first burst of fuel to start the car. I purchased mine at AutoZone for $40.99 ... Ronnie sells one on his site as well [http://thereattastore.com/fuel-injection-parts-for-the-reatta/]. My 1990 was doing exactly what yours is doing and I had thrown a lot of money at it but the problem persisted. Changed the Fuel Pressure Regulator ... problem solved. Note: when in stalling the new Regulator put a rag under it because you will drop the back screw several times. I used putty to stick the screw on until I got it started. Good luck.

[drtidmore]

Another out of sight, out of mind cause of fuel pressure bleed back is a device known as a pulsator which sits between the fuel pump and the line leading out of the fuel tank (Ie it is INSIDE the fuel tank).  I fought this same issue a few years back and replaced all the typical culprits (fuel pressure regulator, injectors, fuel pump).  I had looked at the pulsator when I replace BOTH (yea, twice) fuel pumps and all appeared fine.  What I did not realize was that the damned ethanol in our gas had been silently attacking the rubber at the slip joints on the pulsator and while there was some tension it was insufficient to prevent bleed back.  When I installed the new one the difference in the tension exerted by the rubber slip joints was dramatic!  Prior to replacing the pulsator, the rail pressure would be at ZERO within 15-20 seconds after killing the engine.  Once I got a new pulsator and installed it, the problem vanished. FYI, with the new pulsator in place, the fuel rail, after shutting down the engine, still holds working pressure levels for literally days on end...way beyond the expectations set in the  FSM.

 

That said, quite a few people have simply tossed out the pulsator when replacing the fuel pump so you may OR may not have one, but it is potential source for fuel pressure bleed back.  

 

One thing that I have done for years is NEVER, NEVER attempt to actually turn the key all the way to crank instantly.  If you first turn the key to RUN, pause a moment,  it will energize the fuel pump and assuming all things are proper, build up the fuel rail pressure.  When you turn the key to CRANK, the ECM, assuming adequate fuel rail pressure, injects a couple of shots of fuel from ALL injectors to prime the engine.  If there is insufficient fuel rail pressure, that priming shot may be insufficient or totally missing.  It only takes about 10 seconds or so for the fuel pump to build up the rail pressure so not a major inconvenience. 

[Ronnie]

5 minutes ago, drtidmore said:

One thing that I have done for years is NEVER, NEVER attempt to actually turn the key all the way to crank instantly.  If you first turn the key to RUN, pause a moment,  it will energize the fuel pump and assuming all things are proper, build up the fuel rail pressure.  When you turn the key to CRANK, the ECM, assuming adequate fuel rail pressure, injects a couple of shots of fuel from ALL injectors to prime the engine.  If there is insufficient fuel rail pressure, that priming shot may be insufficient or totally missing.  It only takes about 10 seconds or so for the fuel pump to build up the rail pressure so not a major inconvenience. 

 

David,  Wouldn't you have to turn the key on and off several times to get the fuel up to the rail in order to build pressure... assuming fuel had drained back to the tank? I thought the pump was only energized about 3-4 seconds when you turn the key to run and then cuts off. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you wrote.

[drtidmore]

Ronnie, depending on the amount and the timeframe of ANY fuel pressure bleed back, those few seconds of fuel pump activation should bring the rail pressure up to operating levels.  The FSM allows for the rail to bleed down over a 20 or so minute period which equates to what the fuel pump can overcome prior to the priming shot.  If there are significant bleed back issues ( i.e. also present when the fuel system is trying to pressurize) in the fuel delivery system, the fuel pump may NOT be able to restore the fuel rail pressure in the time allocated by the ECM while the key is in the Run position but not yet moved to CRANK.  In other words, EVEN with a zero rail pressure, if the bleed back time was around 20 minutes, the system has sufficient integrity such that the fuel pump can fill and pressurize it quickly.  

 

Don't know if you have ever witnessed the power of those little fuel pumps, but they can pump a LOT of fuel quickly.  I used mine to empty the remaining gas in the tank on a couple of occasions (Ie removed line at fuel rail, slip rubber hose over line and empty into gas container). 

 

 

My habit of always allowing the fuel rail to re pressurize prior to moving the key to crank is just a good habit as it ensures that the ECM priming logic results in a quick, easy start.

[Ronnie]

I also make it a habit of pausing at the run position before starting the engine. It usually starts in what seems like one revolution of the engine even when cold. I guess that is a good sign that the seal at the pump is still good.

 

My daughter had a Nissan Sentra with a bad check valve at the pump. It is a common problem with them. She had to go through 3-4 key 0n-Off cycles in the morning in order for it to start the first time. That is what made me ask my question..

 

I just didn't know how quickly the Reatta pump could build pressure if the fuel had drained back to the tank. I've not had the pleasure of pulling the pump out of my Reatta and I hope it will be a long time before I do.

[drtidmore]

As for dropping the fuel tank, the reatta is one of the easier ones.  After draining the tank as I mentioned, getting it up on ramps allows access to the 4 bolts that hold the supporting straps.  I just used a floor jack sitting near the center of the tank to support the tank as I removed the straps, along with a helper to just steady the tank.  Once the straps are removed, lower the floor jack some, remove the electrical and fuel hoses at the top and finish dropping the tank down.  It is light enough to just pull off the floor jack and then slide from underneath the Reatta.  I have had mine down a total of 4 times over the years so the routine is well rehearsed in my mind.  The last time I pulled it, I would say from start to finish, including removal of the sender/pump section to replace the pulsator was less than 45 minutes.  As I said, one of the easier Reatta projects even it does seem intimidating at first. 

[Ronnie]

Thanks David. Good to know it's not too bad. I've heard horror stories but I think it was because of rusted bolts, fuel lines, etc. I'm surprised that they continue to make new fuel tanks and straps for the Reatta. I guess the rust belt keeps them selling enough of them to justify production.

[Ronnie]

The pump initial prime time is controlled by the ECM and it only runs for a short period until the engine is turning. There is a prime connector that can be used to run the pump continuously without the engine running.

Fuel Pump Prime (Test) Connector Location

[padgett]

There was also a TSB for the 89s having a "hard start", was essentially a PROM replacement that had a longer prime cycle.

 

To test when cold turn the key to run, wait a few seconds & turn to off. Repeat just this time after waiting in run, go to start. See if it is quicker.

 

My experience with 3800s is that when right they will start almost instantly.

Edited July 22, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)