What are the ethics with this???

[Guest]

Yesterday I spotted what I thought was a 69 GS convertible for sale in Missoula, so naturally I stopped for a look. Car is in fair condition with lots of new parts...asking price $8000. The things that threw me off at the time were that it is a supposed GS 350 convertible ( which Buick never made in 69) and it had what I thought were some Skylark trim pieces. I checked the body plate and VIN tag and they both had the number 44467 on them. This number seemed odd for a GS so I checked my trusty Buick literature when I got home and that is the number for a 69 Skylark custom convertible. So, somebody built a "fake" GS, and you could tell it was done a long time ago. I would bet anything the current owner is unaware it is a fake as the plates read " 69 GS ". The problem is, someone might buy it now, for a premium, without knowing it is fake. I am afraid if I butt in I will be thought a jerk, but if I don't butt in somebody might get ripped off. I would greatly appreciate other's opinions on this matter.

[Guest]

I believe honesty in our hobby is important.If I bought a fake in error I'd want to know so I wouldn't stiff next buyer.<BR>

[Dave@Moon]

It's going to be bad news for the owner trying to sell, but I think most of us would rather know if our car wasn't what we thought it was. I'd feel worse if I were the seller and the buyer came back to me later with the bad news, so you may very well be thanked for the information.<P>It is amazing how many of the Saturday night cruisers that you see that are fakes. I remember a story in Cars & Parts from about 12 years ago about a VIN search service for Pontiacs and their results on GTO verifications. As I remember, at that time they said about 1/2 of the GTO's they'd checked so far were fakes, with fakery increasing with rarity. The artical said that all of the 1971 Judge's that they'd so far checked (either 5 or 7, I can't remember) were fakes. <P>I think we should enjoy our cars for the intrinsic value anyway. This economic crap just interferes with that. But I wouldn't want to be an unwilling accomplice to this kind of fraud at any rate, and I'd want someone to tell me if I was about to be an accomplice. <P>Maybe I'd tell the guy when I wasn't alone with him, just in case.

[Guest]

All good advice. I especially agree with Dave's statement that the "economics" can bring a certain seriousness to our hobby that is supposed to, primarily, give enjoyment and put a smile on our faces.<P>However, if I were the owner of the clever "fake" I would want to be told about it... I think most of us would. It doesn't really detract from the "niceness" of the car, it simply makes it unique! <P>Matthew

[NTX5467]

This seems that it could well be a "no win" situation. While we might take the orientation that we might police the hobby (of sorts) to look out for the good of our associates who might buy such a vehicle--which is a great orientation--doing this can be more trouble than it's worth. Similar to informing a seller at a swap meet that the part he says is for a 56 Century is really for a 55 Special, for example.<P>Their buddy (the "expert" they believe and give credibility to) told him it came off his father's 56 Century. You know for a fact that it fits your 55 Special and is totally specific to that car and year. If you try to correct the seller and challenge him on it, he will probably take the defensive mode and it doesn't matter what you say or prove, he will believe his buddy over you no matter what. <P>Same thing could happen on the clone GS. If the guy with it now for sale did the emblem deal, he might or might not admit to it. If it was done prior to his buying the car, it's a different situation. Either way, there's going to be some bad feelings in the deal.<P>I figured out with the swap meet situations where I knew what the part was (by number and description) and the seller said it was for something else, I learned to just walk away and let someone else get "educated". The seller was not going to believe me and the price he wanted was typically too high as a result of it being so desireable.<P>The desire to correct the seller on what he had for sale would have been done with the best of intentions for him and who might buy the vehicle, but such good intentions can be more trouble than they are worth (in time, effort, and elevated blood pressures).<P>While we would want to purchase a correctly badged vehicle, others might not care if it's what they want. Probably the best course we could take is to advocate that all potential purchasers research the vehicles they are considering and go from there. The information is out there if they want it.<P>Any vehicle which is considered desireable can be cloned whether it is Ford, GM, Chrysler, or otherwise. The purchaser needs to be aware of what they are looking at before they pay for it. As always, be an informed consumer.<P>Enjoy!

[Guest]

He KNOWS EXACTLY what he has.<BR>He won't admit it and will play "dumb" if you tell him. Remember theres a sucker born every day, and with the ability to advertise in books like Hemmings and the use of the Internet, he will find one!<BR>And many times the buyer dosn't care, just likes the car. That's the reason you see so many fake cars like the Judge, they just look better. I happen to have a 68 GTO that will be getting all the Judge goodies because it will make an awesome looking car, but I will not try to sell it as such.<BR>But I'm telling you he knows, wouldn't you if it was your car?

[Guest]

Without knowing for certain, I'd have to agree and say he knows he's got a fake. The question is, is he representing it as a GS? Fishman doesn't get into the conversation he had with the guy, if any. He's not even going to buy the car, but he wants to tell the owner he doesn't have a real GS so someone doesn't get burned. Owner will almost certainly tell Fishman to drop dead and get lost.(No offense, Fishman) Bottom line is caveat emptor, first and always. Don't buy anything without at least a little research. And never buy a ride unless you really dig it, and feel the price fits your desire for the car. We would all agree that honesty is important, but expecting it to be employed by others is not realistic.

[Guest]

Well, here's the deal...the guy I talked to owns an auto detail shop, and he is helping to sell the car for one of his customers. I stopped by today after work and talked to him about the car...his reply: "thanks for pointing that out. I will call the owner and let him know." He was exceptionally nice about it, and it turns out he is a muscle car enthusiest himself ( GTO's and Chevelles but we won't hold that against him). We BSed for probably 20 minutes and he showed me his new project, a 70 Cutlass SX convertible. Whether or not he will tell the owner I don't know, but his polite nature made me feel better about telling him. He is convinced the owner does not know, because he knows the person who built the car, and that person sold it to the current owner. I think next time I will simply pass by any cars for sale. Besides, my wife would never let me have two muscle cars!!!

[Guest]

<p>[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: swimmster ]

[Guest]

swimmster, sounds like you are bs'ing about being married. i got hitched a couple weeks ago, and i am here to tell you that a truly functional relationship cannot be had by completely ignoring the feelings of half the people involved.<P>it is not about the money, but more about the space or the eyesore, really.<P>hell, i bought a 64 stude this weekend cause i wanted to, but i was smart enough to CONVINCE my wife, rather than huff and puff about how i could do whatever i want...<P>now i have the car, AND the woman is happy <P>funny what getting older does to you <P>allan

[Guest]

Gee, swimmster jumped right in with a response not even suited to the topic. In my experience, dudes who crow that "king of the castle" crap suffer from just the opposite. Anyhow, in re original topic, at least he was polite about obviously disregarding your info.

[Guest]

I guess I need to pay more attention to traffic, because I surely missed the left turn this thread took a couple of messages back!!!! Lets whip a quick "U"-ie and get back on track. At the time I felt thoroughly shmoozed by the guy but in retrospect I suppose he was just being indifferent since it is not his car. Either way, I think more and more that the theory of "buyer beware" is the only sure way to eliminate people getting ripped off. Next time I am shopping for a car and look at a fake as a prospect, you can bet I will say something. As for getting involved in other peoples purchases, unless it is a friend of mine, forget it.

[Guest]

There are other reasons other than economic gain (ie making a buck) that "fake" cars exist. There are some who cannot afford to own a "real" GSX or a GTO Judge and making or buying a fake/clone be the next best thing to the real thing. For example,for $1k one could make a typical Skylark coupe to LOOK (to the average person) like a GSX by adding just a GS hood, rear spoiler, and paint with a stripe. I know there is much more to a GSX than that, but if one wants just the look there ya have it. To the purist that's a sin, to me it's a joke, but to some one who wants just a cool looking car... it's just that.. a cool looking car.<BR> (now don't anyone get any ideas of making a Honda, Kawasaki, or Suzuki look like a HARLEY-DAVIDSON or else!!) <BR>

[Guest]

NTX5467, you said a mouthfull, I am with you all the way. There is always the chance that we are wrong with our facts also. I mean I know '65 Gran Sports very well but who is to say that some "clone" I see isn't a Gran Sport that was in a wreck and got a Special front clip installed or the motor pulled and a 300 installed? Also, I don't know about you but I have got facts mixed up before, yes I know it is hard to believe. <P>SWIMMSTER, big <P>Harley, You are very right. I had a customer with a real '69 Shelby GT500 Convertible, He never drove it because he was afraid to leave it anywhere. One day he brought me a '69 Mustang 302 strippo convert. He had already installed the Shelby dash and "rollbar" and wanted me to put the Shelby fiberglass trunk, and hood and fenders on it. I did so and he had a very convincing clone. Now he could drive his "Shelby" and leave the real one in the garage. Not exactly what I would do (I'd drive the dang Shelby!) But it reminded me of the Rich who wear the fake MIllion dollar braclet and leave the real one in the safe.<BR>Inless the person is selling the clone as a real GSX or SS or GTX or what ever, I'm talking lieing right to the buyers face. I don't understand why clones are a big deal. I will bet that if someone buys it under the impression it is real, he will never find out and sell it to another guy who thinks it's real and so on, it could live it's life going from buyer to buyer and NEVER be "found out" because these guys just want a cool car. Now if it were a clone Stage one, that is a bit different, the buyer is going to be paying a lot more money and will probably be more careful and check it out much more thorough. <P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

[Guest]

In regard to MartinSR's tale of the customer with the '69 Shelby... I'm with you Martin, I'd drive the car! But I understand how easy it would be to get a bit "too" careful about a car that is both rare and valuable.<P>Clones are a great way, however, to be able to both afford and drive the "car you always wanted" or until you happen to come across or are able to afford the real deal. I have no idea why so many old car guys nut up at the prospect of a clone, or the fact a car isn't "numbers matching." As long as it is fun, that's what counts!<P>Matthew

[Guest]

I have personally verified several Fake GTO's. What the seller is in for if the buyer finds out it is a fake is a lawsuit and the awarding of triple damages to the buyer. There was a case in Fla where the seller got jail time! Selling across state lines will get lots of attention. It is one thing to Restify a rare car. But, you better sell it as a restified car!<P>------------------<BR>Gatomon

[Dave@Moon]

Damn, now you're going to tell me that Hugo Boss t-shirt I bought at Carlisle wasn't real either! <P>A clone that's a tribute to the real thing is usually easy to spot. Martin's '69 Melby still had a 302 in it, etc, (I'm assuming the Cougar tailights were swapped in, too.) There will be details left out because they weren't essential to the illusion, or there will be "improvements" to the stock form. For instance my brother's '79 Hurst/Olds clone will have an improved engine over stock. <P>Someone who's going to commit fraud (and yes, criminally that's exactly what this is) will be much more thorough and adhear much more strictly to the stock template. Once discovered, these cars are pretty hard to explain away as tribute cars. <P>Aren't you glad we have a hobby that hasn't been spoiled by money!!

[Guest John Chapman]

Dave, there is a <I>fortune</I> in this hobby... and every week, I toss in a bit more....<p>[This message has been edited by John Chapman (edited 10-09-2000).]