Young people/custom buicks/hot rod deluxe

[Guest]

I am a new BCA member[ 4 months].I have heard alot of debate and comments on modified cars and on the involvement of youth in the old car hobby/lifestyle from Bugle articles and posting. Personaly, I am A fairly young guy [30] who enjoys the full spectrum of automotive styles from stock to highly modified.<BR> <BR> Anyway,check out this new magizine if you are even slightly interrested in<BR>a...cars that are attracting a load of retro styled young folks<BR>b...cool traditional styled hot rods and kustums<BR>c...{I think}<BR>some real cool buicks<P>When you get to the site click on events and check out the pics of a few of the shows Paso Robles etc. There is a lot to explore at this site ....also the classified has some nice unmolested buicks 4 sale w/ pics <A HREF="http://www.hrdeluxe.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hrdeluxe.com</A> try it you'll like it...... <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/davesbuick" TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/davesbuick</A> is my site ....let me know what u think<P>------------------<BR>

[Guest]

I am 44, live 40 miles south of Paso Robles and have been to the shows featured in HR Deluxe. I bought my first Buick, a 1964 Wildcat back in 1973. I have always loved cars in general and Buicks in particular. I was a BCA member for quite a while but frankly, the guys who obsess over date-coded hose clamps and talk about the "integrity of the Marque" like it is some sort of mystical cult take the fun out of it.<P>Currently I own a ratty but original 1967 GS California. Over Labor Day weekend I am going to look at two distinctly different Buicks in two different states of repair. I'll probably buy one of the cars and make it my daily driver for a while, just to shake it out. A friend who is way into Mopars is going along with me because he wants to check out a nailhead to power a street rod design he has in mind. Over the course of our friendship he has taught me a ton about Mopar musclecars, his particular favorite, and I have taught him about the Buicks I like the best, Wildcats and Gran Sports. He has come to appreciate the torque available from a Buick mill so much that he now wants a nailhead over an old hemi for his street rod.<P>In my humble opinion that's what the old car thing is all about; not some brand loyal, closed minded, uptight discipline but a wide open all-appreciating mind set that enjoys all old cars. In my case, I like Buicks a lot. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate a nice original survivor (yes, even a Ford ) or a cool street rod. About the only thing I really can't get into is the late model four banger "Ricky Racer" Japanese marques that run around sounding like sewing machines. Some of them may be able to blow the doors off of my older American car, but they'll never have the style that my car does... ever.<P>So maybe I am a little closed minded. Hmmmmmmm... I'll have to work on that. Oh yeah, I don't like 5.0 Mustangs a whole lot either... <P>Matthew<p>[This message has been edited by 67GSCalif (edited 08-23-2000).]

[Dave@Moon]

I think the problem that a lot of hot rodders run into is that they are blamed by antique restorers for a lot of the wasteful and narcissistic behavior that they see in years of exposure to that realm of the car hobby. The vast majority of hot rods I've seen are carefully done recreations or well maintained origionals of individualized performance cars of the 1950-1965 era. But you say "hot rod" to me, and I immediately recall the <I> very </I> well indowed masturbating mouse I once saw 20 years ago emblazoned on the hood of a Chevelle, or the myriad of truly valuable and irreplacable antiques (including several full-Classics) that were "hot-rodded" with a Chevy small block and J.C. Whitney accouterments.<P>I think the problem that a lot of antique restorers run into is that they are blamed by hot rodders for taking the preservationist view of the car hobby to extremes (which, admittedly, some do). Not every 1960 LeSabre is or should be an AACA Senior restoration, but it is nice that some are. Not every 1936 Cord is an AACA Senior restoration, but I don't think it's extreme to think that doing anything else with one is wasteful. <P>That line is not firmly drawn and will always be point of friction. Some people see any car or engine with no available speed equipment in the Summit catalog as a useless object ripe for exploitation or disposal. Some people see the same thing as the only part of our automotive heritage that needs preservation. I've actually heard inexperienced hot-rodders discusing the disposal of cars so that their bodies could be used in a project, when said cars' value in the Old Car Value Guide as restored a vehicle exceeded 6 figures! (Usually this was an inherited car or one obtained in a trade from another uninformed person.)<P>The wide and varied interests of the different people involved in our hobby is a strength, not a hinderence. The important point to consider is that everyone approaches this hobby with their own aesthetics and knowledge. Other's perceptions of your actions will be shaped by knowledge and aesthetics you don't have and cannot appreciate. A Marvel updraft carburator is a worthless piece of crap to half the people reading this, and an indispensible piece of history to the rest. Same goes for the tunnel-ram intake and Chevy rat motor crammed into the next cliche '32 deuce coupe you see. <P>I try to never 'dis anyone's car or interests. I always try to share my admittedly more preservationist (but decidedly driving oriented) aesthetic and knowledge. Other's will insist that getting that extra 0.3 sec in the quarter mile out of their '65 Riviera made it worth eliminating a few bits and pieces here and there. Still other's will be convinced that they've improved upon the stock '48 Roadmaster's looks with that chop job and flames enough to negate the financial and historical loss. <P>We're not all wrong, just different. Everybody just deal with it!

[Guest]

Out of all the cars I have Built [rather rebuilt] not one has been rare or historicaly significant. I have always tried to walk the middle ground between stock/cutom and hot rod. Its funny I can never get out of the gas station without some wrestling T-shirt clad, beer breath breathin ,beat up toyota drivin individual telling me how he'd put a big blockin it.<BR> I have three distinctly different vehichles a 56 Buick special,49 chevy pick up and a 67 rs camaro and each one seems to attract a different kind of kook. The first question they ask before tellig you how to build your ride is "What year is your car" <P> Dose this just happen to me?....Great now I'll probable have nightmares tonight just knowing my driver needs gas in the morning..hehe....Dave

[Dave@Moon]

Blueick, that was probably the Vice-Chariman of your local Chevy club. "Put a big block in it" is the highest complement they can usually think of! <p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 08-20-2000).]

[Guest]

oh your not the only one, i get the big block thing all the time right after the what year is it question just like you. if its not the big block comment its "what engine is in that thing?" then when i tell them the original 264, they give me the depressed how could you not change that look. im going to keep it as original as i can, the engine isnt huge but it does have some good power left in it. atleast i know i im not the only one who lives in a town where people like to say they love your car and then turn around and critisize the way it was built. personally i really like the cars that are all original and not modified with the flames, or chopped, or customized in some huge way. the one thing i do like is the push button doors, but thats about all.

[Guest]

I agree with you a lot Matthew, but on the "Ricky Racers" we part, These little cars are not my cup of 30w either, BUT, they are HOT RODS non the less. In every since of the word, they are HOT RODS. And I am so glad to see kids thinking about the mechanical stuff instead of those blasted sterios! Man I can't take that BOOM..BOOM...BOOM.<P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

[Guest]

Dave, you are a master of semantics. I had to laugh at the Chevelle with the mouse on the hood, there is a Chopped, fenderless 1934 Ford in my town that has painted in foot high letters on the door..."The Ultimate Climax" Jeeeez where do these people get their brains? I am very middle of the road on this subject, the memory of the 1963 Fuelie Vette Splitwindow on the cover of HotRod magizine that was bought as a 100 point show car and "prostreeted" makes me ill. But I also shake my head at the guy I saw with the fully restored 75 Honda Civic at a Concourse in Palo Alto Ca. sitting on the polo field along side of classic Ferrari's and Roll's. I have done NOTHING to my '65 Gran Sport that I couldn't change back to original in an afternoon (save the non original color) But my '48 Chevy pickup is Chopped and sectioned. I chopped it in 1976 and it wasn't exactly a classic, if I was lucky enough to happen apon an original '48 Chevy truck in decent shape today (mine was far from original or decent in '76) I wouldn't, I COULDN'T cut it up. I look at Hot Rodding like meat, when I have a meal at a resturant that is poor, I think "an animal died for this"? When I see the average Street rod/HotRod I think "an original car died for this"? The shame is some of these cars could be left alone and the guy could find one already "cutup" and build it the same way. I don't understand why someone would do that. Yet there are MANY cars on the road today because they WERE HotRodded, if not, they would have been scrapped. This issue will be fought for ever, so "Let's just get along" <P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

[Dave@Moon]

I've often wondered how guys like my Chevelle and your '34 get girls with an attitude like that. Now I know, they don't and that's why they have the attitude! <P>Maybe we should start a movement--"Get a Geek a Date, Save a Classic Car!"

[Dave@Moon]

By the way, Martin, one of the guys here in town did exactly the same thing to his truck (including the 401), a 1957 Cameo! His saving grace, he did it in 1968. <P>You've never seen so much sparkle vinyl in your life! I often wonder how ridiculous today's neon lit monochromes are going to look in 10 or 15 years.

[Guest]

alright- i thought i had been thru this with dave already, but it is nice to see martin weighing in on the matter.<P>56 blueick, your site is broken. kill the cascading style sheets.<P>the only comment i really want to make on this is how the 'friction' that comes from the half drunk redneck can be ignored, cause they are not your 'peers' in the car hobby.<P>the friction that comes from the restorer is harder to ignore, since they are your peers, and they tend to be the well-monied hardliner's in control of the club's you enjoy.<P>the ignorant 'why dont it got a big-block?' crowd is generally not the sort of person you want to meet at a show and talk cars with. the guy at the buick meet with a car like yours, only original, might have some interesting stories to swap.<P>that is, if he is not to busy turning up his nose at you.<P>i hate that both martin and dave's comments are all about 'why would someone do that' for 90% of the length, and it is not until AFTER they have vented their frustrations about split window vettes or 36 cords that they finally get around to saying, 'cant we all just get along?'.<P>you see, my post here does not start with ranting about those date coded hose clamps, cause if you want those, hell, go for it!<P>why cant restorers start their posts with one of martin's last line's about how that car might have gone to the crusher if it was not for the customizer, instead of "When I see the average Street rod/HotRod I think "an original car died for this"?"<P>not to bash martin or anything, but that poor redneck at the gas station telling me i should have put a big block chevy in my 455 powered buick, and the restorer telling me i should have kept the straight-8 dont seem all that far apart.<P>allan

[Guest]

I'm glad to see some younger people too. Although I haven't seen anyone as young as me out at the shows (I mean not there with their parents anyways). Being only 22 yrs old, I find myself stereotyped at the car shows or swap meets I go to. As you may have guessed, it was always by some guy in his mid forties or fifties thinking I lost my way and wandered though there by mistake. So Bluick, when you think you're a fairly young guy compared to all of the other buick fanatics think of me. As for the debate about customizing or restoring, I personally don't cry if someone decides to take a part of our great American history and chop it all up, but I don't think I could drastically alter my piece American history. I mean, it took me two months to decide to take out the old AM and put in a Cd player, but I always keep everything I change so that I also can put everything back that I have changed in one afternoon. By the way, I like that Boom Boom ... Why do you think I couldn't take the AM any longer?

[Guest]

yeah- i got you with that one, martin.<P>but i see exactly where you are coming from at the same time. if all of us were not opinionated about cars, we would drive hondas. the fact that most of us have buicks and other old iron of any type that we are willing to work on is brought about by our opinions on how a car should be, opinions that are not satisfied with anything else.<P>so i appreciate your opinion and agree with you to a certain extent about the billet steering wheel in the traditional custom, but i am not half so quick as you to point out other people's 'deficiencies', since they probably dont care about my opinion, and it would just make them mad anyway.<P>it is another guy's iron. it does not belong to the 'community' dave thinks he represents somedays if it did belong to the community, it would have been a piece of public transportation.<P>since the manufacturer made it as a private automobile, why is the virtue of old age or someone else's opinion suddenly enough to override the original manufacturer's intent, and turn it into a museum piece whether the owner likes it or not?<P>again, i am not asking for you to like my car. i frankly dont care that much about what you think of it, since i built it for me. i DO care, however, not to be talked down to by some rich fatcat who pays other people to restore his cars for him, just cause i dont have factory correct overspray on the chassis.<P>i am cool to park next to his car and admire it, why does he often act like i am a leper who is going to infect his car with modifications or something?<P>allan

[Dave@Moon]

Is there anyone out there restoring cars that are already mint condition? <P>Are there any cars on the show field at Hershey that were preordained not to go to the crusher?<P>Have all the NOS, reproduction parts and upholstery suppliers gone bankrupt?<P>Have all the machine tools for rebuilding 6 cylinder motors been lost?<P>The simple fact is that every street rod you see (except the fiberglass repro's) was a potential AACA Senior restoration before work began on it. It is a conscious decision to permanently alter a car for one's purposes or rebuild it to its original specs. It is virtually never a "no other chioce" situation. If people can restore one-off dream cars from 50 years ago and 1906 steam cars in their garage, your 1948 whatever can be brought back too.<P>That's not to say that it has to or should be restored. Or that it makes financial sense to (or not to). But never use the poor condition of a car as the excuse to modify it. It was just what <I> you </I> wanted, period. And that should be good enough.<P>The fact that everyone has a different aesthetic on this issue can be seen in the semantics used by both the hot rod and restorer community. As long as we both use the term <I> "unmolested" </I> to describe an unmodified car, the perception of a hot rod as somehow diminished from its past in the eyes of others not involved with the project should be clear.<P>And that, I believe, is the source of all the defensiveness surrounding this subject.<P>As for the things that (as Martin says) are "just wrong", I'm probably more liberal on the subject than he is. Mickey's Mouse (that's the name of the pornographic Chevelle) is wrong. Illegal modifications are wrong. Unsafe modifications are wrong (why do people tint their windows so dark that noone can see whose to blame/credit for the car?).<P>Billet steering wheels are ugly, and almost certainly of limited temporal appeal (anybody out there still using their 6" chrome chain steering wheel?). But wrong?..... <P>What I find truly wrong is the idea that there is no automotive heritage, and that we do whatever we want to our cars <I> without consequence to us, the car or the hobby. </I> In the last few years I've seen several extremely rare cars chopped to fit the interest of one guy. It's bad enough to lose another 1957 Plymouth to a custom, but why do people think they can improve on the looks of true classics? You haven't lived until you've seen a candy-apple blue XK120 raked 6" with a set of Crager's. (And yes, don't forget the sbc!) <P>TNN (The Nashville Network) seems to make a crusade out of this "modify at all costs, it must PERFORM" attitude. Their Saturday shows contain a wealth of information on old cars, but they amount to 4-5 hours of infomercials for aftermarket pieces which are sometimes of questionable taste and utility and almost never cost effective. In the last 2 years I've seen a 1937 Terraplane coupe and a 1933 International flatbed chopped there (yeah, I know, there's 8 of those on my block too!). They even recently featured a bored and stroked Whizzer! <P>For God's sake, why???<P>And that's the point, that you have to be prepared to answer the question "Why?", at least for yourself. If you can do that, you're not going to be bothered by what I think, or what Mickey thinks. You should expect tolerance for your decisions in what to do with your car, but agreement?...

[Dave@Moon]

Somebody named MARTINSR changed the color of his car???? Shocking!

[Guest]

kitno, Okay, I deserved that. What I was trying to say is that some things are "taste" and other things are just plain WRONG. If I can exaggerate, some people think childmolesting is just "taste" but it's wrong. Building a perfect period piece post war custom with all the goodies, frenched lamps, chopped, shaved, rounded hood corners, Cad Caps, and then a Billit steering wheel...WRONG. It isn't just someones taste, it's wrong. So when I say let's all get along, I guess what I am saying is "Just as long as everybody does things right, like I want them" big .<P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

[Guest]

ok dave, you have used this exact argument before, so i am going to try a new approach:<P>did the stude and the terraplane look good when they were done? did the owner have good enough taste to enhance the car's lines rather than make it look like a 49-51 merc <P>i think that is the only thing you can be critical of, and even then you should keep your opinions to yourself unless the owner asked for it.<P>hell, stop watching tnn if you dont like it!<P>what is 'wrong' here is how dave and his crew were not around to buy this lump of scrap i saved from the crusher, and now they want to tell me how to make it look?<P>come on, you missed your chance to buy that terraplane, or that 100 point corvette, and somebody else did what they wanted to with it. if you really wanted to see it original forever, you had two choices:<P>1. buy it yourself<BR>2. make others feel guilty for modifying the car, and destroying YOUR heritage<P>since you didn't do #1, i guess you only have one choice...<P>i dont like being the butt of this externally imposed guilt trip, when this hobby, this community, is supposed to be all about friendship and sharing, and just plain having fun. <P>dave, the world is not going to spend its cash to buy up every possible worthwhile old car and hang on to them until you decide they are worthy of some senior-whatever restoration.<P>this community you think you speak for is composed of individuals, and your 'community' opinion is really mostly YOURS.<P>the fact that the terraplane was not discovered by a restorer, but instead by a rodder probably did save it from rusting away. that is a simple question of increased numbers of car nuts because there are restorers and rodders. so the theory that modification can save cars DOES hold water, esp. since you cant change all us rodders into restorers, as much as you might like.<P>arg. i hate when i ramble.<P>allan

[The Old Guy]

One thing that you are all missing is the fact that many cars done by hot rodders are cars that have been passed up by the restorer as not worth doing. Ther was a 25 Buick 4dr in my area some years ago that was passed on by all the restorers as too much work,as it needed to be completely rewooded and it wasn't worth it. A street rodder built a complete square tube frame for it and dropped in a small block chev. When he was done ,all the purists in the area were up in arms about the waste of a good car ,BUT they all passed it up!I recently did a 37 Buick coupe and some of the local BCA members were upset when they saw it with a 455 and bucket seats,and all the latest comforts. The fact that I would have had to destroy another car to make it original doesn't count in their book! I bought the car with no motor,trans,or interior and the body looked like lace for the bottom 6 inches. There is room in the hobby for everyone! I was into racing for years and went into antiques when my boys got old enough to break my race cars.I have been to every BCA national meet, and still run at the drags with a GS and enjoy my street rod<P> 37 Buick /455 powered<BR> 40 Super convert restored<BR> 57 Buick /455 powered <BR> 63 Buick 23,000 original <BR> 72 Buick GS 13.05 at 105<BR> 87 Buick GN original<BR> 91 Buick

[Guest]

You know you own a buick when your friends 5.0 runs 13.0s while being towed behind your car. Just thought i`d throw that in.

[Dave@Moon]

Is anyone really reading these things before they've formulated a rebuttal?

[Guest]

yes, i read the previous posts. did you read mine? <P>allan

[piche582]

I think people should be able to do what they want to their cars. I'm 18, and when I go the shows here in the San Francisco area I look at the resored originals and customs as someones hard work. I don't criticize because someone took a car that could've easily been restored and instead chopped, dropped and did any other custom tricks to it. I have a '55 Roadmaster 4dr and am in the process of mildly (very) customizing it.<BR>Most people would look at the body as repainted and flamed, but I'm planning on using the original color for the body, but am changing the roof from white to silver. The only real body mods performed were shaving the mirors on th fenders. The real work is taking place underneath, with the adapting of a TH350 and a 9 inch to the 56,000 mile original 322 (New carb, intake).<BR>This car could have been resotred orginal easier than it will be to customize it, but thats not what I like, but I definately would never take an all original or restored car and go custom with it. I believe people should go with whatever floats their boat, but I don't think anyone should be criticized for taking a car, seeing in their mind as a custom, or 100 point show stopper. <BR>People build their cars to be looked at and appreciated, not criticized. <BR>

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by piche582:<BR><B>I think people should be able to do what they want to their cars... <BR>People build their cars to be looked at and appreciated, not criticized. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Couldn't have said it any better myself!<P>The number one thing to remember about this old car hobby: If you're not having fun, why are you spending all the time and cash?<P>Matthew<P>

[BUICK3001964]

ABSOLUTELY<P>------------------<BR>Sean Etson

[Dave@Moon]

If anyone's still interested in this subject and would like to se it discussed from a <I> very </I> different perspective, go to the top of this page and click on the "Collectible Automobile Discussion Forum" icon. When the complete menu of these forums (forii?) comes up click on the "AACA General" discussion forum. Then click on the "search" icon (very tiny, upper right screen) and search that forum for "Young People". <P>There are about 14 threads on the subject. I reccommend reading only the 4 that have "Young People" in the title. Additional insight can be found by reading the "Driver Class" thread.<P>The AACA guys have a much more serious problem with recruiting younger enthusiasts. I'll leave it to you whether their approach, if it exists, works.<p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 08-25-2000).]

[Guest]

I wonder how many people have done a big fat judgement on me for my Buick collection, now approaching 50 examples of the 1960 Buick ? Mitch

[Guest]

Just wondering what you guys think of my "56 Chevy"? I brought this to a swap meet one time, and you can't believe the comments I got. I had to explain that the car was totaled and that I didn't see them down there at the wrecking yard saving that totally distroyed four door sedan! Anyway, I just got in from out of town and really enjoyed reading the posts on this comment. I can see how my argument is not the only side!!! Man that was a shock! There are many valid points made. <img src="http://members.aol.com/goodstuff53/table.jpg" width=500><P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

[Guest]

Dave, why is it that every thread on this board that has a flame next to it I know that you are involved? I am tired of reading some crappy 2 page opinion/gospel filled post and then you get some responses and you always say "Doesn't anyone read my post?" Sorry, but 60 lines of crap and 1 line of "Just my opinion " just doesn't cut it.<P>Come on, thats crap! It doesn't matter anymore how you intend it. The fact is that you offend a lot of people and only a few people have the guts to point it out. Its almost like everyone wants to see the responses you get. Kind of like the closet Jerry Springer fans. The fact that no other 'seniors' on the board stand up to you just furthers the notion of this wall built up between the 40 and over crowd and the younger generation that will continue the tradition.<P>Oh, and to say that you never take shots at anyone else's choice of cars is just crap. Plain and simple. You should try to read some of your posts sometime.<P>Do us all a favor and remember what it is like to be 22 years old. I have long since past it, but I still remember it.

[Guest John Chapman]

70Something,<P>I don't know what your main malfuntion is, but your post to Dave was just plain nasty and out of line.<P>The great things about the forum are the expression of ideas, shared experiences, information exchange, opinions... and yep, occasionally some ribbing. I just don't get your beef with the age thing either.<P>You owe Dave an apology for your little temper tantrum.<P>And, if you're going to stick around, how about registering so you can get direct email.<P>Cheers,<BR>John<P>------------------<BR>John Chapman<BR>BCA 35894<BR> jmchapman@aol.com

[Centurion]

John, you said exactly what needed to be said. As I look over the postings on this and other threads, it seems to me that Dave has been fair and respectful. It's hard for me to understand what the problem is here. I think that showing respect for another's opinions has to be a two-way street. Some people seem to think Dave should accept their viewpoints but are completely unwilling to give him the same consideration.<P>Dave, hope you're not discouraged by the tone of some of the postings here. I appreciate your effort to be fair and open-minded.<P>

[Dave@Moon]

I'm sorry, I was just sitting here playing with my mouse. Did I miss anything? <P>You guys <B> have </B> to look up those "Young People" threads on the AACA side. It puts this kind of...discourse in it's proper perspective. Over there they think I'm a latter day Ed Roth with an out of control acetylene torch!<P>Martin, that table is cool!! Did you make it? Is it free standing? Is that <I> PPG </I> paint ? I'd make one of my own (out of origional 427 Cobra fenders of course), but blue-dots are illegal in PA! <p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Guest]

Thanks, and yes Dave, I did make it. And NO it isn't PPG! It is free standing, you can see the legs at the bottom of the photo. It looks the same on the other side and the tail light (whith works, thanks to a transformer, complete with a flasher so the blinker blinks) is the gas door side so it opens and a shelf is inside for the my remote controls. I am looking for a nice '59 Ferrari TestaRosa to cut the front end off of to make a stereo cabinet. (I can hardly joke about that...it gives me the chills)<P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

[Guest John Chapman]

Dave (a.k.a.: Big Daddy Roth),<P>OK... I'll look. I was gonna finish putting the wheel well moldings on this evening, but it can wait a bit...<P>Personally, I think the issues of restoration vs. modification have to be looked at in light of the changing consciousness about all artifacts of our heritage. <P>Forty years ago, who really cared about old cars? How many Duesys/Auburn/Cord/Caddy/etc rotted away on the back of the tin lots? How many historically and/or architecturally significant houses were torn down before the preservation craze hit in the '60s? If you want really sad, just read the fate of thousands of WW2 vintage airplanes that were sold for their aluminum scrap value. A B-29 could be bought for a couple grand, a P-51 for a couple hundred. At least the auto hobby world is waking up. Now we just need to stop the crusher laws or none of us will have old cars to bicker about.<P>Cheers,<BR>John<P><BR>------------------<BR>John Chapman<BR>BCA 35894<BR> jmchapman@aol.com <p>[This message has been edited by John Chapman (edited 08-31-2000).]

[Dave@Moon]

If you don't like crusher laws, one subtle reminder: One of the two major slates for the White House in this year's election is made up of two oil men. Gee, I wonder if <I> they'll </I> be friends of the old car hobby?? <P>Yeah, the other guy's a rotten, commie environmentalist. But so am I!

[Dave@Moon]

And Martin, you should look up some grille shells from a couple of Arnolt-Bristols. They'd make wonderful speaker cabinets!

[Guest]

By the way, I enjoy your posts Dave, I really think that 70something has gotten caught up in one of the problems of reading these posts..they are just words..without the speakers voice being heard...they are just words. What is lost, is the inflection in ones voice. If we were all standing around BSing we would hear how something is said, we would understand MORE of what the writer is saying. 70something, read the posts a few times with different attitudes, you will see that they can be interpreted many different ways. We are all not Samual Clemens (though I think Dave comes close ) I have learned a ton from these "political" posts...including yours 70something. This also why it is so easy to get "friendly" you guys have no idea what a psycho freak I am...I hope .<P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

[Guest]

Hey John, I have an old customer who has a picture in his office of him standing in front of HIS 40 War birds after the war! P-51s. Corsairs, P-40s, etc. He bought them for the fuel! He kept four of them and owns them today. He has the only restored E model P-51(I think it is an E,a two seater?)flying. It is a beauty and he buzzes his neighbors all the time right over our neighborhood! He also has a '66 Cad that he calls his $million Cad...you see he traded a Corsair for a new Cad with the Cad dealer in 1966! Cool stuff...I'll tell you that. <P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

[Guest]

Fair and respectful. Hmmm.. Check out this quote from earlier in the summer:<P>From John Chapman:<BR>"Dave....<BR>As my Ma said, 'Never pet a burning dog...'<BR>Cheers,<BR>John"<P>Dave@Moon replies:<BR>"Yeah, better to let it pi$$ all over itself."<P>That repsonse was after someone on this board did not agree with Dave's viewpoint. So no, he does not deserve an apology. <P>I have no problem with the rest of the 'senior members' on this board. The rest of you seem to be able to communicate without offending. Dave may have some good opinions but seems unable to express them without offending me. Could be my problem, could be his but I have seen at least 10 other people on this board reply in similar fashion.<P>I have nothing to hide behind with my e-mail. I would actually prefer to e-mail Dave but his address is unavailble. Makes you think doesn't it?<P>Joe<BR>josephsunde@hotmail.com

[Guest]

Dave, after re-reading my first post I realize that I was out of line and for that I am sorry. I am a big enough man to realize that I did throw a little tantrum so for that I apologize. This is just like the 5th thread that I have read on the custom/stock subject and I blew.<P>I hope that this helps you to grant some other people on this board an occational apology when you say things that are offensive.

[Guest John Chapman]

Joe (70Some...)<P>You present comments from a thread completely out of context with the rest of the dialog, no history, nothing. That's the same tired trick the spin-miesters use in political campaigns. Lookin' for the sound byte. No, it wasn't respectful, nor was it intended to be. The two yahoos in that thread, NoBigDeal and JimmyBojangle showed no respect for any of the others and my post and Dave Moon's response reflect that--that seems fair to me.<P>That said, you're on the right track with the apology post to Dave. Are you going to register or not?<P>Dave, I'd not noticed the lack of email address for you, what's up with that?<P>Brian, a $1M Caddy... I love it! Who'd have <I>ever</I> guessed a P-51 would be worth $1 - 1.5 Mil? Likewise, who'd have guessed there'd be million dollar Ferraris, either?<P>Happy Labor Day,<BR>John<P>------------------<BR>John Chapman<BR>BCA 35894<BR> jmchapman@aol.com <p>[This message has been edited by John Chapman (edited 09-01-2000).]