?#1,#2.#3...

[Guest]

What makes a car a #1,2,or3 car?<BR>Is the points system related to this and how does that work as well?

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

It depends on who's rating system you are referring to. "Old Cars Weekly" (a Krause Publication) publishes a quarterly "Price Guide" with values based on actual (?) selling prices related to the cars' condition.(#1, #2, #3, etc.) <P>I don't know if this is the system you are referring to or not.

[novaman]

The AACA judging points system doesn't work or have anything to do with wether a car is a #1,#2,#3.<P>AACA judging works from a 400 point system. The car is divided up into four catagories. Interior, Exterior, Engine (then my favorite), Chassis. Each of these is 100 points. The judges take off points for things they find wrong. The awards given are a 1st,2nd and 3rd. The guys that get the 1sts win the award they are going for as these are Junoir, Senior, Preservation. <P>To get your Junior or senior, the points work like this:<BR>Minimum points:<BR>1st-365<BR>2nd-330<BR>3rd-295<BR>Mutiple awards for scores within 10 points of the highest scoring car in each class.<P>so if the best car get a 395, then anyone within ten points also gets a 1st. Then the first score outside that ten let's say is a 329 then he would get a 3rd, nobody gets a 2nd (must have some rough cars at this show ) because he didn't meet the min. points for 2nd. <P>That is just a quickie on the points. For more infromation go to the Judging section on the left side of your screen on AACA main page.

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

NOVAMAN:<P>Thanks, that is probably a better explanation then the manual gives.....everytime I think I get it, I just as quickly don't get it?<P>I think I get it now, but here's my scenario:<P>All going for Juniors:<P>My friend scores 395 and I score 380 and lets just say that he is the highest scoring car in the class, So he wins a 1st Place Junior. That I get. Now, I am not within 10 points of the highest scoring car in the class, but I am greater then 365 pts., so do I get a second place Junior? or do I still get a First because I scored atleast 365?<P>Thanks<BR>Mike

[fordee9r (Ron Springstead)]

Sorry guys..... I misunderstood the original post.

[ronbarn]

You get a Second with that scenario.

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

Thanks, Ron. So I get the second place Junior, does that mean I will still have to get a First place Junior or do I automatically now compete for senior at future shows? I know you have probably answerd these questions so many times that it gets frustrating, sorry.<P>Mike<P>oops... I just re read the manual here and I guess that is clear, only the FIRST JUNIOR is now in the senior category.<p>[ 10-03-2001: Message edited by: 66 Mystery Chevelle ]

[Guest my3buicks]

Although much discussed before, I think the 10 point within the hight point car is still a crock. If the points are set at 385 then it should be 365 or higher no questions asked. That ruling makes absolutely no sense. If a car is good enough to get a first at lets say 380 at one show then it should be good enough to get a first even if a 395 car is present. AACA always says you are not judged against another car, but in reality you are.

[novaman]

I personally would think if you were to make it a cut throat point system it would really hurt a lot of people. First to reward the higher cars you would first only have the professionally “over restored” cars to win because the points cutoff would need to be raised to a higher level. Say about 390 instead of 365 for a first Jr. award. ( that would make 2nd 380, 3rd 370). Yes at shows like at Hershey, you will have several 397,398,399, 400 point cars. That with the 400 car there it makes for a 390 cut off. If you think about it more people get awards and more people have fun. Then what happens when you go to one of our smaller national shows. I have been to one that the top car in the class was something like 387,389. How would you feel if you got a 2nd and nobody got a first in your class? We are about restoring cars (not over restoring that the cars are better then they came from the factory) and also remember that not everyone has the large $$$,$$$,$$$ to have someone restore the car for them. There are people who do their restoration in their garage, get dirty doing it, and these people should be able to compete with the over restored cars.<P>Our point system is one that has been followed with records and shows that it is about the fairest you can get. Remember that there are a good number of shows throughout the year, our judges are volunteers and actually pay for part of their breakfast which is mandatory to attend in order to judge, and the judges do not attend all the shows therefore you don’t have the same judges judging the same cars all the time. With different judges, say the car was 400 points on a rainy day. The next time out it is sunny and nice. Well with the higher cut off now the exterior guy sees a scratch in the paint and a dent that couldn’t bee seen in the rain. 3 points. The chassis guy sees several scratches in the bumpers not seen in the rain. 3 points. Engine guy sees a carb. Leak that wasn’t there last time. And a wiring problem not seen due to trying to keep the engine compartment dry last time. 2 point. The interior guy sees defect in a window not seen in the rain, problem with the convertible top not seen due to trying to keep the car dry last time, stain on the carpet from mud from last show. 3 points. 11 points. No first place. Now how does this guy feel?<P>As for the not judging against another car. What’s is meant is that you do not compare cars to determine who should win. You point out this one. Move to next car and totally forget about that last car you judged. With the way you are looking at it you could never have any point system because that would be judging against another car. Either everyone gets an award or nobody that way.

[novaman]

And by the way, if you go to one of the AACA Grand National meets first your car has to have its Preservation award and then the points close up that to get a first you have to be within 3 points of the highest car. This show is the "best of the best" so to speak.<P>This system has worked since 1952. How about yours?<p>[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: novaman ]

[Guest my3buicks]

Novaman, As a 23 year member of AACA I am very aware of how things are done and how the system works. I just don't agree with the stipulation of being within 10 points of the high point car. It's a double standard, well your good enough to Junior if a really high point car isn't present and you get the required points, but if you were to get the same score at another event that a high point car is present your not. that makes for alot of inconsistancy. I have a Senior car with multiple preservations and have had others through the system so I'm not new to this. I have not had this happen to me, so it's not out of sour grapes that I bring this up. I think it's an aspect of a good judging system that needs looked at. Just because it's been around since 1952 does not make it perfect.

[novaman]

I didn't realize you are a member of AACA. I saw that you had your BCA# but no AACA membership metioned and figured that you might possibily be someone that didn't belong yet knew about the point system and was complaining about. <P>Still I don't see how you can have a set point limit (as I called it "cut throat") that is fair unless you have the same judges at every show. When people walk up to a car not everyone sees the same defects. Also wether conditions make a difference for the guy doing exterior. It is a whole lot easier to see a side of a car that is wavey on a sunny day than on a cloudy. yet it'll look perfect on a rainy day. There are too many variables. I do agree that there are a few cars that have gotten through the system that personally shouldn't have. But I still don't think there is a judging system that is fairer too everyone.<P>I gotta go to work now. Will back later.

[Guest]

Well said, my3buicks. You've been around<BR>long enough to know, there are more than<BR>one hobby in AACA. We have people who restore & show cars for a hobby, then we have<BR>those who judge for a hobby. BUT, the ones <BR>who's hobby is judging, doesn't seem to <BR>realize that if it wasn't for the hobby of<BR>restoreing & showing, There would be no judging hobby.

[virginian]

I'm afraid i'll have to agree with my3buicks. just because a system has been in effect since 1952 doesn't mean its flawless. it also seems that if the judges can't find flaws or defects they haven't done a good job!!!!!!!!!

[novaman]

redt, there are a lot of judges who not only judge but have restored thiers cars and show them. So it isn't, a case of either judge or show as your post kinda indicates. <P>As for years in AACA I've been a member for 19yrs, judging for 15 years, but invovled in AACA activies (starting w/local club stuff w/ parents)for about 32yrs. I remember when the Hershey show was in the stadium, thanks to one guy with a Willys Knight. I was only knee high to a grasshopper at that time but remember his nickels dancing on edge onto of the engine while it was running. It was parked in what is turn 4 for the race car. conditioning run. I am currently restoring 2 Chevy IIs and looking at getting another entered into HPOF. <P>I never claimed that because the system is 52 yrs old, that is perfect. What kind of points cut off/sytem would you use?

[Guest]

Hi Guys<BR>This year I attended my first AACA meet at Hershey, also my first year as a AACA member.<BR>I allways thought that the vehicles at an AACA meet are the "cream of the crop" and my goal when I did my "amateur" restoration was to bring my car to this meet without being embarrassed.<BR>In my class their was one first one second and one third junior award. I got a third junior and was very excited because I knew I was being judged on a standard not against other cars. I know my car isn't perfect but its full of hard work.<BR>After reading the responses on the topic of judging I have a question.<BR>Where can I find my exact show point score.<BR>I'm not going to dispute it but I would like to know what I could do to improve my car.<BR>Thanks<BR>Joe

[novaman]

You can't get the exact score for your car. You though write I believe it is the V.P. of class judging and get a "copy" of your judging form. This "copy" will not have the points on it but, it will indicate were points were taken so you know where you need to look to improve your car. You can not get this "copy" if you have won your award. In your case the 1st Junior.

[ronbarn]

First item - The AACA judging system, which was indeed started 52 years ago, has evolved considerably. Several different "maximum number of point" schemes have been used. There has been a 100 point, 1000 point, even an 87 point (figure that one out) judging sheet. The Judging Committee constantly looks at the system to assure that the procedures and application of the system is fair and doable from one meet to the next with consistency. There was a time when there was no tie and the Grand National, then a three point spread for First and now a five point spread at the AGNM. The ten point spread (above the minimum) is for National Meets, not the AGNM. <P>Second - Ultimately the arguments against the system ultimately arrive at the same conclusion, i.e. give everyone who shows up a First and just do away with the judging. I don't think this is the way to go.<P>Third - Paying someone else the "big bucks" does not guarantee success. I have personally judged so-called professional restorations that were sloppy and did not win. There are some outstanding professionals, but a good home restoration, well researched and well executed can, and does frequently win.<P>Fourth - the myth that some of our AACA members enjoy judging therefore they are incompetent is so much baloney. They do their research, in the vast majority of cases have worked on restorations, and they do get the training supplied by the AACA system.<P>The point spread has been well thought out and implemented over a number of years (certainly not 52) and serves us at this time as a strong approach.

[Guest]

I have been away for a while with a sick computer, hence this late observation.<P>The major problem with the concept of giving everyone who scores 365 or above a 1st place award is that 365 then becomes the standard of perfection. Why then should anyone invest the time and/or money to go above that level? What will it get them. Just the same award as the 365 point vehicle.<P>400 points indicates perfection, or as near as we can achieve it or judge it. The 10 point spread for a tie leaves a little room for judgement or error in the judging process. In spite of what some habitual bitchers say, we judges do not think we are perfect, but we do our best. The 10 point spread takes care of the mistakes we might make. <P>I certainly don't want to be the man who claims he makes no mistakes, because look what they did to the last perfect man. ~ hvs

[Guest 70 Electra]

After reading these postings, I'm really puzzled by the AACA judging system. I think I'll have to go the website and read whatever's there to see if I can get a clear understanding.<P>To me, the "First, Second, Third" (trophy)places should be the only awards that are judged RELATIVE to the other cars. Awards for achieving a certain (performance) level of restoration quality (i.e. Gold, Silver, Bronze, or whatever you choose to call 'em) should be given strictly on the points score. Depending on the quality of the cars that are participating in a given show, there may be 9, or 99, or none, that achieve a given level of performance.<P>Over the past 25 years, I have been involved with many car brands and several of the associated clubs, including the Corvette folks. For whatever anyone may say, the Corvette guys seem to have a handle on the restoration and judging standards. You may or may not agree with the LEVEL to which they've taken it, but in my mind they have set the standard. The performance requirements are clear and the judges (generally) well trained. When a car is assigned a score and a performance-based award, it is (within human error) independent of what show, or where in the country the judging was done.