No-size Radials

[machittome]

Gang,

This may have been discussed before.

The rule book is clear under Chassis item number 12 as far as red line radials, letter size tires, metric size radials and low profile metric radials. I've been seeing tires with red lines and wide white wall tires that appear to have a radial tread design and no visible size marking on the out side side wall.

Can you declare it a radial from the tread design when no size marking is visible?

Documentation may show a red or wide white wall but the tread may not be clear or identical.

Regards,

Ken

[Shop Rat]

Ken, I copied and pasted your question and sent it to Eric (Rick) Marsh, the guy that teaches the CJE class on tires. Here is his reply to your question.

Hello Ken, I have been including this subject in my tire CJE now for about a year. There is a company out there, I believe, called diamond back tires. They make a wide white radial design with a smooth outer sidewall.

Bias ply tires have a sharper angle of transision from the sidewall to the actual tread. Radial tend to have a smoother transision as you would note when looking at the tires on your modern vehicle.

If you are unsure of the type of tire due to a smooth sidewall w/o markings, you can almost bet that the tire came from this company whose primary market is modified vehicles.

You can also see the markings when you look under the vehicle at the back side of the sidewall.

Rick Marsh

Additional information from Rick I received tonight by e-mail.

One point of clarification. A Bias ply is a bias ply but, a radial maybe a radial or a P Metric radial.

If you walk up to a vehicle with a wide whitewall, it should generally be a early '50s car or older. If there are no markings on the sidewall, then a close inspection of the tread, as you pointed out, is in order.

If the vehicle calls for a radial (per the owner's manual or the B pillar sticker), the tire must match the documentation. Putting a P metric on a '69 Buick and taking the P off with a drummel tool doesn't make the tire a correct component.

On our show fields we should see bias plies, radials and P metric radials and, in all cases, they should match the documentation.

It may take looking at more than one supplier to make the matchup a reality.

Rick Marsh

Edited January 23, 2010 by R W Burgess (see edit history)

[machittome]

Thanks Susan and Rick,

You are right. That tire company advertises a bias-ply look with square bias-ply style shoulders. They also mention their tires are labeled only on the inside sidewall. They make it hard as possible to tell it's a radial. It's hard to see any markings on the inside sidewall of a tire on a low profile car on a grassy field without a flash light. Wouldn't a correct bias ply tire have visible outside sidewall markings even with a wide whitewall? So we have to look for a size marking, and look at the tread and shoulder.

Well then, if it is a metric size radial tire then we must judge it as such. A radial is a radial! Correct me if I am wrong.

Regards,

Ken

[Shop Rat]

You are welcome and I will forward your thanks to Rick.

[machittome]

Susan,

Ask Rick what the difference is between the Metric radials and Low Profile Metric Radials mentioned in the rule book and P-Metric radials. There's got to be more to it than just the prefix "P."

Thanks,

Ken

[Shop Rat]

Ken,

I just copied and pasted your question and e-mailed it to Rick. I will let you know when I hear back from him.

[Guest Siegfried]

A suggestion to anyone, judge or not, to attend Erics CJE on tires at your next national show. CJE's are held approximately 1 hour before judging commences on the show field. Just look for Eric and listen in. He provides a super lecture on tires. I attended at Hershey just to find out for myself how knowledgeable he is, and he is. He's also willing to listen to the students.

[Shop Rat]

S-I,

I hope you don't mind but I sent a copy of your post to Eric/Rick. People that teach others and volunteer their time to do so enjoy hearing that what they do is worth someone's time to learn.

I have known Eric/Rick for quite a few years and he is a great person. The handout he gives during his CJE classes is a great reference tool.

[Shop Rat]

Susan,

Ask Rick what the difference is between the Metric radials and Low Profile Metric Radials mentioned in the rule book and P-Metric radials. There's got to be more to it than just the prefix "P."

Thanks,

Ken

Ken,

I just heard back from Rick. He is one busy guy. Here is the information he just sent for you. Hopefully this will be helpful.

The basic construction is similar. We started with radials which use a number system ie. 225/70R15. Along about the late 70s we started down the path of joining the rest of the world in the use of the metric system. The result was a re-measurement and adjustment to European standards. We called these P-Metric and production continues to this day.

About 10 years ago it was very difficult to find the "original" radials and people felt they had use the P-Metric instead.

Today, both are in production. Most of us just key into Google the size we are looking for and are lead to multiple sources.

Rick Marsh

[Shop Rat]

A suggestion to anyone, judge or not, to attend Erics CJE on tires at your next national show. CJE's are held approximately 1 hour before judging commences on the show field. Just look for Eric and listen in. He provides a super lecture on tires. I attended at Hershey just to find out for myself how knowledgeable he is, and he is. He's also willing to listen to the students.

S-I,

As I mentioned I sent this to Rick since he rarely comes on the forums. Here is the reply that he sent for you.

Well thank you. It is always nice to receive positive feedback.

Thanks,

Rick Marsh

A note to anyone that takes a CJE class, please remember to thank the instructor when the class is over. They volunteer their time to help us further our judging educations. AND they have to teach several times a year to get ONE credit. And no matter how many more times they teach, which some of them are at every show, they only get one credit. Judges on the other hand get a credit for every show we judge at.

[machittome]

Thanks,

I found this info on the Tire Rack web site. It is the "P!"

What's the difference between the tire sizes of P225/60R16 and 225/60R16? The obvious answer is the "P" in front of the first size, but just what does the "P" stand for and what does it tell us about the tires?

P-metric sized tires are the ones with the "P" at the beginning of the tire size, (such as P225/60R16 listed above). They were introduced in the United States in the late 70s and are installed on vehicles primarily used to carry passengers including cars, station wagons, sport utility vehicles and even light duty pickup trucks. Their load capacity is based on an engineering formula which takes into account their physical size (the volume of space for air inside the tire) and the amount of air pressure (how tightly the air molecules are compressed). Since all P-metric sizes are all based on the formula for load, vehicle manufacturers can design their new vehicles (weights and wheelwell dimensions) around either existing or new tire sizes.

Metric or Euro metric sized tires are the ones without the "P" at the beginning, (such as 185R14 or the 225/60R16 listed above). Using metric dimensions to reflect a tire's width actually began in Europe in the late 60s. However, since Euro metric sizes have been added over time based on the load and dimensional requirements of new vehicles, the tire manufacturers designed many new tire sizes and load capacities around the needs of new vehicles. Not quite as uniform as creating sizes using a formula, but they got the job done.

Euro metric and P-metric tires in the same size (i.e. P225/60R16 & 225/60R16) are equivalent in their dimensions with just slight differences in their load capacity calculations and inflation pressure tables. So if Euro metric and P-metric tires have the same numeric size, the same tire performance category and the same speed rating, the two are considered equivalent and interchangeable if used in axle pairs or sets of four. Simply continue to follow your vehicle manufacturer's recommended inflation pressures provided in the vehicle's owner's manual or on the vehicle tire placard (usually found on the door jamb or on the glovebox or counsel door) for either size tire.

I'll see you in class!

Ken

[Guest windjamer]

IMHO this is the same as cheating. I most always judge chassis and although I know its one knee on the ground,if I suspect cheating I will go the extra mile to protect AACA standards.

[Guest Siegfried]

Susan, Thanks for passing the comment along. I share flea market spaces beside Eric for 2 years now. We usually have a few discussions on judging, and old cars in general.

Another comment on the 'No Markings Tires'. The chassis judge is NOT supposed to crawl around on the knees to judge a chassis; however, in this situation I think the rule most be changed.

My thoughts:

1. When these tires are encountered the chassis judge should be permitted

to check the back side of the tire.

2. The v.p., class judging should push for this rule change to solve the

problem.

3. All team captains should inform their chassis judge to come to them IF

they encounter these tires. Then the team captain can note on the

judging form the fact that these non-authenic tires were on said car, and

the max deduction was delivered.

4. The team captain should also inform the owner.

5. This might/should end the problem, and send the message to car owners

to get there tires with the program.

6. Final thought; If the chassis judge is embrassed to crawl around to check

out the back of a tire, then the team captain could do so. My reason for

this thought are the ladies involved in the judging program. I really don't

think to many of them would appreciate having to do what I just

suggested.

[Shop Rat]

Susan, Thanks for passing the comment along. I share flea market spaces beside Eric for 2 years now. We usually have a few discussions on judging, and old cars in general.

Another comment on the 'No Markings Tires'. The chassis judge is NOT supposed to crawl around on the knees to judge a chassis; however, in this situation I think the rule most be changed.

My thoughts:

1. When these tires are encountered the chassis judge should be permitted

to check the back side of the tire.

2. The v.p., class judging should push for this rule change to solve the

problem.

3. All team captains should inform their chassis judge to come to them IF

they encounter these tires. Then the team captain can note on the

judging form the fact that these non-authenic tires were on said car, and

the max deduction was delivered.

4. The team captain should also inform the owner.

5. This might/should end the problem, and send the message to car owners

to get there tires with the program.

6. Final thought; If the chassis judge is embrassed to crawl around to check

out the back of a tire, then the team captain could do so. My reason for

this thought are the ladies involved in the judging program. I really don't

think to many of them would appreciate having to do what I just

suggested.

S-I,

You should copy and paste your list of suggestions and send them by e-mail to Joe Vicini. He is currently the Vice-President of class judging.

As for me I wouldn't have a problem with checking the back-side of a tire. Other ladies might not wish to do that. But I will bet they will if they are the chassis judge. The other women I have judged with wear shorts, jeans or slacks rather than dresses or skirts when they judge so that they can do whatever is required to judge the vehicles.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[Guest windjamer]

SI I may have misunderstood your last comment,but just to be clear the judgeing schools I have attended for the last 8 years ALL recomend the chassis judge drop to one knee to judge the under carrage.Many of us carry a mouse pad ( Shoprats idea) for this purpose. You are right about the tires,they can be hard to see but I think most of us can recognize them or become suspicious and then a more carefull inspection is in order:D

[Shop Rat]

Many of us carry a mouse pad ( Shoprats idea) for this purpose.

To be honest I learned about using a mouse pad to kneel on from a guy I judged with one time. It seemed like such a good idea I did post it here for others. The ones that are like wetsuit material are great. They have a foam type back and material top that keeps the knee padded and dry in the case of hot pavement or wet weather. And they will roll up small enough to carry in a back pocket.

[Guest Siegfried]

WJ, Yes, one knee is correct for chassis judging. I am thinking about a 2 khee approach. And about the mouse pad idea, I always have one with me for the past 15 years I've been judging. Main reason is a lot of one knee is artifical, and the other is a god-awful mess from playing football in high school. Neither of them bends without a bit of pain, and kneeling on the ground without a pad has been out for me for quite awhile.

[Guest shubh]

The difference between the construction of radials and bias is the direction of how these layers or plies are applied in relation to each other and to the center line of the tread. The plies on a bias-ply tire run approximately 45 degrees to the center line of the tread, alternating in direction with each layer. The plies on a radial tire run 90 degrees to the center line of the tire and basically overlap instead of crisscrossing. The other physical difference between the two is radials tend to be a lower profile tire while bias tire are usually taller and thinner.

[Guest bkazmer]

The first number, whether preceeded by a P or not, is the nominal tread width in mm (therefore always a metric measurement). The next number is the sidewall height as a % of the tread width.

[Guest Siegfried]

Well, what can I say? Susan you are thoughtful, and go out of your way to thank a lot of us for our comments. Perhaps I'll see you at the annual meeting, and Rick also. I'll wear a VW emblem under my name badge for recognition purposes. Thanks again.

[Shop Rat]

S-I, Thank you for your kind comment. I try to help where I can, give credit to those that deserve it (I will never take credit for someone else's idea or action) and I truly love this hobby and support the AACA way of doing what we do.

Sadly I won't get to meet you at Philly. It just isn't the time of year to travel from here to there. But maybe at one of the shows this year.

[machittome]

I sat in on Eric's CJE on tires at Parsippany.  It was on target! 

Regards,

Ken

[NeilO]

I was  there also great cje.     Neil

Edited July 2, 2019 by NeilO (see edit history)