Steve_Mack_CT
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Posts posted by Steve_Mack_CT
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What is amazing is that Packard survived as long as it did. Immediate postwar woes kept the company from reaching its sales potential well before Nance - problems included issues with the tooling for the clippers (some of which was stored outdoors), supplier price increases while Uncle Sam (tried)controlled pricing on completed cars, supplier strikes and union problems. So, while Packard may have done as well as the others during the war, these problems prevented them from being flush with cash which was the case with some others. They all knew the sellers market was temporary. All manufacturers had some problems getting going, and someone mentioned quality issues accross the board right after the war. Think about how hard this must have been to overcome.
Packard was fighting for survival from 1946 on, while the majors were fighting for market share. Studabaker had a couple great years in 49 & 50 began to slide by the beginning of the 1950s. Interesting that new car registrations from all four major independents (Packard, Studebaker, Nash & Hudson) all peaked around 49 - 50 and all slid at about the same relative rate until they each dropped off one by one.
By this time model changes and consumer demands for the latest technology/gadgets made it pretty hard to be an independent. I don't think Packards of that era were any less a car than their contemporaries, but keeping up was getting harder and harder. I think the 56 was one of the better looking cars of the era - clean yet distinctive (although the Lincoln Mark ll would give it a run for its money, I think in terms of best built production car of the era..). Agree nothing foreign could touch US quality and dependability at the time - they came a long way in a few short years when you consider mfg. now had to worry about power everything, AC and HP in the hundreds to keep up.
Personally, I like to think Packard would have dropped off in the 70s even if it had lasted, thus avoiding that long period of, well, you know in the US auto industry after that.. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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Restorer, did you check out the website I left for you on the 1904 Cadillac pix? I bet you this guy can help you -
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Restorer, you may want to touch base with this guy in RI, I don't know him personally, but he is well known up this way with very early Cadillacs (Classics also) - http://www.classiccars.ws/index.html
He may be able to connect you with this vehicle now.
PS - Driver of the roadster looks like a wild & crazy guy! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Talking of banning someone for expressing non personal opinions???! Not sure if we are all reading the same posts - I have to say something in his defense. I have yet to see a personal attack from Pete (I don't know about any prior history, just this forum). I did see where he had a difference of opinion with another person in advising someone on treating leather seals in another thread, follow the posts, I hardly think he was looking to offend anyone and in fact did take the high road there, ignoring the other person who got personal.
Just my 2 cents as I think this guy is getting an undeserved beating up here. There is a fine line between interesting posts and strictly facts, but I figure if you don't attack someone and you are on topic, that is OK. I figure some of you may have old beefs - too bad because without that, this is a heck of a forum. If he is not your cup of tea, then why not just pass on his post? I just think it would be more productive overall.
Re postwar, he is really not saying anything that is not fairly common/accepted knowledge Re postwar Packard. How do you compete, as an independent against the economies of scale GM & others had? Virtually no one produced a vehicle on another level like pre-war Sr. cars or coachbuilt cars of any make. One could argue this level would give Packard an image car - much like the earlier cars helped make the 110 & 120s so popular. Lincoln tried with the Mark ll but lost on each one, so that was not viable either. I do think quality played a role also.
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Brad, I think "you pays your money and takes your chances" - unfortunately what you describe is not rare in my opinion. My philosophy has always been the best transactions are between private seller and private buyer, ideally from a club member or reputable hobbyist/collector. I realize that is under the best of circumstances, and not everyone wants to wait 5 years for just the right make/model. So, dealers and auction houses grow market as the hobby expands. Most people I know who have bought from either dealers or at auction have very little background on their car. I think some of the main auction houses have brought some attention to the hobby but I am not sure that is all good. These guys seem to have tremendous influence on values and trends - and, in general terms, I think some regularly manipulate this to their ends. The ripple is an innacurate market, which is what I have a problem with. IMO auctions are good for speculators and auctioneers, but otherwise not too beneficial overall - with a few exceptions I would stay away.
PS - when are you going to post those pix of your friend's unusual "A"?
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This has been interesting to me, as I have seen some large Classics (primarily Packards) in my area described as Pheatons, but they clearly have an elongated body and seat 7, not ugly by any stretch (no pun intended!) but I can see where a pheaton design would make a big difference in terms of value, since design and balance is really most of what determines a Classic, IMHO.
Earlier in this thread I mentioned the term "Tourster" - I did not make that up, I have seen it referenced on some Classics, I can recall at least a couple Duesenbergs called "Toursters",one here in CT - is this a bodymaker's term, or just not really in use? The local Duesenberg "Tourster" does not have jump seats,if I remember correctly.
Thought I would provoke some thought since the horse pulling the phaeton seems to have been beaten completetly dead by now.. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
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That is a really nice car ~ no doubt what appears to be a small oil or water slick to the left of the driver's front tire came from your everyday car! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Great lines and great shape - enjoy!
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Good points, 6686! Yes, at 43 I have to say I feel like I am on the "other side now" when relating to these younger guys. I am still hoping the restoration bug bites my 17 year old, but for now, it is sports and college, which I can understand. We have done what we can to give him a traditional or "old school" upbringing (so he does not dispense french fries for a living!) He goes to a couple shows per year with me. Like many of these kids, the racy stuff draws his attention, but he appreciates the old "A" for what it is, which is a good start. Funny I can remember going with my father to endless shows at that age, couldn't get enough - times change and I guess people all have different interests.
I do have to comment on your concerns though, for the future. If your predictions about these cars coming onto the market in a few years holds I hope to grab one for myself. I must not be alone in that thought - I think there will be a market for Classics and, possibly some bargains as those who inherit decide to sell, etc. Hey, some of you guys lived through the "golden age" of collecting these cars - roughly early 50s to early 70s - and may have been lucky enough to acquire a one owner original out of a local home, etc. I can remember some very interesting cars coming out of garages in the town I grew up in, including one Packard dual cowl Phaeton found by a friend of my dads around '77 or so. It would be close, in my opinion, to that kind of thrill to eventually buy one of these fine cars from someone who had owned it for a long time and been a good caretaker ready to pass on that responsibility. I would not even have to "steal it" to feel good. (My "A" came from an owner of close to 30 years, a lot of good vibes there..)
As for the guy selling the Chevy you know your right, at least he is not cutting it up and painting it neon green with purple trim...
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6686 humorous & entertaining as usual. A quick comment, though - maybe a novice gets a "pass" but really, is it that unreasonable to have simple rules asking members to place items in the right category? What I mean is, it is actually helpful to the seller redirect these ads to the right place. I suspect most of us visit more than one section daily - especially in the winter. Most of us probably like more than one class of car. How many of us read magazines like HMN cover to cover each month, but would be a bit frustrated if there was no order. Remember the good old days when the cars were in sections, but not as well organized as today? That was more fun, to tell the truth! But, I can't blame the Classic crowd for looking to maintain some order here..
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Ford owner's definition -
Henry (any color as long as it is black) = Touring Car
Edsel (lets make it a baby Lincoln, dad) = Phaeton
The rest of you guys are on your own! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Buy a copy of Hemmings Motor News at the newsstand, it will cost you around 5 bucks. Borders, etc. has it if you don't want to subscribe. This will give you a good idea of where ford sedans of that era are trading at. Also check out Fordbarn.com, in the v-8 section you will see lots of ads on these cars. The 37 was a little overlooked relative to some other years, however any of these cars are still pretty desirable. You may consider a broker or consigning the car but it may be as simple as listing the car locally in Idaho and letting a friend or relative handle the sale. Of course, if you post the car & on fordbarn you should get some interest as well. Good luck!
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Restorer, Bruno Kaplan's number is 860-668-7716
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Oldiron, that would make my '68 Cutlass a phaeton, I believe! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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I know of two models of 2-door phaetons off the top of my head, the 30-31 Ford A (a great bodystyle!) & the Jeepster. They both fit the criteria other than doors. I do not think there is another proper name for this unusual style. I think Jeepster is the last American made pheaton & the Dodge Wayfarer would be the last American roadster?
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Karl, the Dodge Boys (& gals) out there can best asses the price but it does not sound like you are to far off. One thing I would recomend is that if this has been in the family a long time, and you know the provenance to a degree, I would place some value on this. Everyone who posts here can talk of cars that slipped away - my only point is, if you are off a few hundred bucks or whatever, you should seriously consider the car itself, and the family history in the decision. I helped talk a guy out of selling a '61 T-bird, 3rd generation in the family, to help with some bills, yeah, a few grand helps with those college costs, but once the car is gone, it can never be replaced.
Good luck!
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This is interesting - I personally like the term "Tourster" better than either, but I do not think that is a recognized standard body type. A quick look at my literature confirms Ford officially called the open T a Touring model right up to 1927, and changed the 5 passenger open car model to a Phaeton with the release of the A in 1928. While open Fords fit the definitions given above, my bet is this was more to capitolize on the term. Phaetons began showing up in ads for late 20s upper end cars. In this era Ford wanted to embrace style and emulate the pricier cars. I do not know exactly when cars like Dodge or Chevrolet began using the term. Designated model names may have as much to do with the manufacturer looking to present a sporty or contemporary image than with the technical body description.
Not to split hairs, I am curious - does AACA or CCCA draw any distinction? What I mean is, if a Buick is a Phaeton by model designation but not by definition, I don't think there is any class difference other than "Open". I do see how this distinction may make a big difference in terms of value on a Packard or other Classic, but wouldn't literature identify each model? There seems to be a tendancy to call all open 4-door cars of the early Classic era Phaetons, you do not see too many Packard Touring cars advertised in most publications. So, are the manufacturer's specifications or a source like the catolog mentioned above serve as the best guide?
Of course I am at a loss to explain the logic behind the use of the term to name the much newer VW "Phaeton"..
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"Saw it by accident", hmm, sounds more like you saw a bad accident.. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
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Ghost, it sounds best kept original given your description. I had assumed it was a "standard" phaeton, but this will be an interesting car to see! A treat for us "A"ers..
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I think the RHD would be less desirable in most cases as the other guys point out. I do not think there is too much to be done to properly convert and he will probably realize around 15 or even 20% in terms of price difference should he ever sell. So it may be worthwhile doing at some point, he would probably be ahead of the game even if he has someone do this for him.
Of course if he does confirm over time that the car is original and wants to keep it 100% original that is a big factor.
Renninger's Model A & Schwalm's Babbitted Bearings are two Lancaster area places he may want to get familliar with.
Your friend will find these are simple and rewarding cars to work on, this is basic advice but he wants to join at least one of the National clubs (they are similar, most belong to both); join a local and get at least one basic handboook. I like Les Andrew's Model A Mechanic's Handbooks myself because they are sort of spiral bound, with fairly good sized print - easy to keep on a workbench. Lastly, he can check out Ahooga.com & Fordbarn.com - similar in format to this site but much more heavily visited by Model A folks.
What year is it? Any Pix?
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So did the '71 Corvette I once had .. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I wonder if he took into account the mediocre construction these cars seem to be known for new. If you add all that HP and weight from power ash trays and such, it probably does not help..
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That sure looks like a great start, '36 - looks solid, complete and original other than your dissasembly so far. So many of these cars have been cut and changed to modern drivetrains, etc. - to each there own but you have something that does not show up every Sunday at the shows. Rod it and it will probably not be as desirable as the Ford/Chevy bodies these guys like in the end. It will cost you as much or more as a Ford based rod if you cannot buy as much out of the box stuf and need to fabricate more, etc. Restore it, and you will have saved a great example of a desirable everyday (for the day) bodystyle that is now pretty rare. Just a thought, good luck either way..
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I must say the workmanship seems top shelf but how do you get that irreplacable old car feel with everything new but the reworked sheetmetal. I can't help but think this must feel like a new Caddy XLR convert or a Corvette to drive. One thing I like about the older stuff is it feels so differently from what we now drive every day.
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Anyone have an idea of what a nice set of Trippe Juniors is worth? Don't need perfection, but must be complete & presentable -
Passed on a set that was complete except for one bracket $125, shells looked kind of tough.
Thanks, Steve
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Hmm, I aspire to own a Classic Packard and now that this link has turned to Duesenberg stories I know what Packard guys daydream about. I thought some of you may enjoy this link. This is the best "find story" I have read lately, and a great overall site if you have a half hour or so. Note the price paid for this car in 1947, princely sum of $450 for what looks like a pretty nice convertible sedan back then, a style I think even more unusual than a phaeton.
http://www.classiccars.ws/articles/barnfresh/duesn2.htm
Also, I do have to say we are somewhat different from rodders, Consider this comment intended in good humor. Half of the rodders are buying modern glass bodies and repro frames, then they scour the countryside looking for NOS and authentic period parts to put on these new nostalgia rods. Half looking at rare original cars, cut them up for the bodies and add modern parts everywhere else. So, half the time both of these contingents are doing OK, we just need to help them a bit..
Seriously, even these higher end rods of today are in my mind in more danger of depreciating over the long haul; look at the state of the art hot rod of the 70s or 90s - not really in demand today, and many go cheaply to be rebuilt into today's standards. These cars are purpose built and when the tastes change, they are subject to the same loss of interest as any other type of car. Now look at Restorations. State of the art has improved dramatically over time, and older restorations make great drivers until the time comes to re-do to today's standards. Originals are always sought after. Way back in this thread Restorer32 comments about his clientele, which I find very encouraging. From recent articles in Antique Automobile I would say AACA is doing its part also, a good thing. But if those Classics do come down just a bit in the next 3 - 5 years....
1940 180 fires up
in Packard
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Tbirdman, one quick thought - I have had success updating wiring on older homes as well as cars by attaching the new wiring to the old and pulling it through those inacessible places. Assuming you are willing to cut up the old harness, which is probably no good as a spare anyway - just make a good connection so you don't lose it halfway through..