jeff_a
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Kevin,
I've heard from the Club President that he was in Cleveland looking at a wealth of data about Peerless about a month ago. Richard says that he spent several days there gathering info for an update of a Peerless history he originally wrote ten years ago. He was at the Cleveland Public Library and the Crawford Auto-Aviation Museum.
I was looking at pages 1159-1166 of the Standard Catalog of American Cars, 1805-1942, VOL. I*, and it says that 1909 Peerlesses offered were a Mod. 19 ( 4-cyl., 30 h.p., $4300-5800 ) and a Mod. 25 ( 6-cyl., 50 h.p., $6000-7000 ). No 40 h.p. models listed, but I've found omissions in this book before. --Jeff
* this has a listing of Peerless models from 1900-1931, with 36 photos
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Dear Kevin,
Thank you for dropping-in at the Peerless Forum! It's interesting to see the picture and hear that there might be a family connection as well as an interest in the cars themselves.
It's not unusual at all to learn that Mr. Logan was announced both by name and by make of car in his 1909 Peerless when you consider how much they cost then. Richard Wager's "Golden Wheels" describes Peerless as the most expensive gasoline-powered auto built in America in 1909. I did a sketch of a 1909 Peerless Berline for a Peerless owner in Florida a couple of weeks ago. This drawing showed a 4-cyl., 30 h.p. car that cost $6,200 [ there was a more expensive 6-cyl.model ]. To give an idea how much money this was...you could still buy a new Cadillac for less than that fifty years later, NOT adjusting for the value of the dollar!
Under the heading "Peerless Photos", you should be able to read something about one of 3 Peerlesses for sale by Collins Bros. Jeep in Texas. Their 1909 Peerless Mod. 19 "Roi des Belges" touring car bears some resemblance to the one in your photo. ----Jeff
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Very Stunning Car. And I'd have to say that the disc wheels really add to the effect. I know there are some more highly styled cars out there, even other Packards, but to me this is about as high up as it gets on the pyramid of restrained classic design.
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Dear Evans Auction,
Thank you for putting the auction photos up here on the Peerless Forum. The new photos of the 40 cars & trucks up for sale are of nice quality...good luck w/ the event June 14th. The pictures of the 1929 Peerless show how substantial a car it is. ---- Jeff Brown, Peerless Club
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A mechanic friend of mine, Ray Reed, was telling me about living through the Great Depression and how you shoppped for used cars. He said "You picked 'em by which one had the most gas in the tank!".
I like your choice of special-interest autos, especially the mid-engined X 1/9, the Gremlin, and the Spitfire -- although I have a bad memory of an 800-mi. mid-winter trip in a '68 Spitfire with no functioning heater. Did any of them have heaters that worked?
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What prompted me to wonder about these cars was visiting one of the biggest car museums in the country, the Pioneer Village Museum in Minden , Nebraska. The PVM has several hundred cars (1905-1975), with most of them falling into the late 20's to early 50's. I visited once about 1986 and then once again in 2006, and it looked like the only cars that had been added were a Pinto, a Vega and a Gremlin.
I wondered about those choices at first, but they are a part of automotive history. This museum is more about everyday vehicles than the high-end ones. While they have a Cord and a Rolls-Royce, they also have one of each year Chevrolet and Ford from 1920-1955, I think, plus a lot of steam and gas tractors.
The cars I listed are a little questionable for collecting now, and maybe even 40 years from now they won't be that great, compared to some others. They would be good to have for a film studio shooting movies set in the 70's & 80's, and we might be surprised by what people are interested in a long time from now.
My point is that they're getting to be so rare, they might start creeping up in value. I saw a Mustang II a couple of years ago at the high school shop and had to stop and look at it a few minutes. I hadn't seen one in years, and had to think back to the days when they were Motor Trend's Car of the Year, and were designed in response to high oil prices ( Remember those days? The President even lowered the speed limit to 55! ). I did see a Vega sell for over $500,000 while watching 2007 B-J Auction re-runs. It was a drag race Vega that had probably never been driven on the road.
Your coverage of the cars I listed was pretty thorough and I agree with you on some of the quality and design problems. I remember National Lampoon Magazine getting into the car review game and concluding that the Pinto was "Without a doubt the finest four wheel motorcycle in America." Still, I was a poor college student during much of the 70's and would have been happy to have one, if I could have afforded it.
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I was reading some posts on the "Hershey Pictures" thread today, and wondering about some 70's and 80's cars that used to be really common but seem to be almost all gone now. Does anyone think some of these will be sought-after in 40 years? I've noticed a real lack of the following vehicles on the road these days:
Early-70's Datsun economy cars & trucks, Pintos, Vegas, '74 Mustang II's, Conversion Vans, Monte Carlos, Buick Electra 225's, Mercury Capris and Renault LeCars, Alliances and Fuegos.
Granted, these would seem to a lot of us as cars of low collector value now ( some of the models, anyway ). There used to be a LOT of them around, and I'm just not seeing them on the road much. Maybe these dozen or so models I've listed wouldn't attract much attention nowadays...but just imagine showing up at a Sonic Drive-In in 2048 with all 12! They might be million-dollar cars, then. -Jeff
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Re: Metro
Just think, with just an accessory horn and a re-paint, he could've had a Dukes of Hazard tribute car!
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How much did someone spend to convert this Classic into a car?
How much would it cost the new owner to convert it back from a "modernized" car into a Classic Car? Maybe there are some shops out there capable of doing that.
A more accurate way to describe the vehicle might be:
Old car for sale. Used to be a classic ( no longer ), but the ride height, color, interior and entire drivetrain are incorrect. Missing components not included with car ( that Classic Era Lincoln stuff is pretty easy to find on the internet, but you might want to enquire, first ). Someone thought this might be something they could turn into a hot rod ( the 1/4 mile times are _ _seconds at _ _ mph ). Used to have features from the absolute glory days of Lincoln - like the upholstery, instrument panel and V-12 engine ( they're all missing ). Not too expensive, much faster than a Toyota Corolla at the drags, and nicer interior than a Chrysler Cordoba. You could probably drive this car safely at 70 now.....everybody knows that these cars didn't go that fast back then.
The 1934 Lincoln's bodywork seems to be intact, I'll admit, and the color isn't too bad.
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joeoc,
I can't say too much about whether this car you've found is worth the asking price, or not. If you had the ability to post a photo and describe it more [ model, engine, wheelbase, what side the intake & exhaust manifolds are on, interior cond., drivetrain cond., etc. ] it would allow more people to hazard a guess.
There aren't exactly many price guides that have ever mentioned Peerless*. Though I'm pretty knowledgeable about Peerless cars and trucks compared to the average person, I couldn't just rattle-off $ values to you. There are so few around, that it is hard to, especially with almost no Peerless cars appearing at auction in the last ten years. This is more out of lack of knowledge about the car than real understanding. Just go up to a car values expert at a big auction firm and ask them: "Which are there more of, surviving Duesenbergs or surviving Peerlesses?"
There have been about ten Peerless Cars for sale in Hemmings Motor News in the last 1 1/2 years and about the same number on e-bay. Right now there is a 1909 barnfind for sale in HMN, along with a well-restored 1912 "48-Six", plus a 1913. The 2nd of these cars has a 578 cu. in. motor and is listed at $1.95 million. On the other side of the coin, a 1917 Peerless Cloverleaf Roadster sold for about $51,000 at an auction last year, and I've heard of running cars from the Twenties selling for $6,000 to $20,000. --Jeff
* Standard Encyclopedia of American Cars, 1805-1942, Vol. I, by Kimes, Clark, Dinwoody & Marvin; Krause Publ., 1996 made an attempt at this. There are estimates of value for Peerless models from 1900 to 1931, but they are all a little on the theoretical side: there are numerous categories of condition and body style with values assigned despite the fact that no actual cars of that type exist. There are also some omissions here and there.
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Sounds like a really interesting car! I'm prejudiced, in that I'm a Peerless Motor Car Club member, but Peerlesses are extremely rare and fairly interesting motorcars. This could be a 6-61, 6-81, 6-91 or 8-125. Look at the Peerless Motor Car Co. forum...listed near the bottom of the list on the AACA forums here. There's a guide to serial nos. and models there. ----Jeff
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You should have kept the TransAM. Wouldn't it be worth a gazillion dollars now with a Chevrolet right fender and Pontiac left? How would they describe it in an auction catalog...a Chevrontiac or a Ponrolet?
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Any use of the word "Custom" on the outside of a car when it really means a mass-produced model.
Putting 10 or 20 grand into "custom van" modifications with the little chrome ladder up to a rooftop luggage rack and the shag carpeting, like people did in the 70's. What happened to all of these vans, anyway?
The fake machine guns on the hoods of 57 Chevrolets. Either it's a Sopwith Camel or it's not!
Flocking cars. I knew a guy in New Jersey who completely covered the body of his new '68 Corvette with this bright orange furry stuff called flocking. Maybe that fad was limited to Jersey in the 60's.
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Dear Austincar6,
Thanks for trying the AACA Discussion Forum to find out about the Great Smith, Jones, and Sellers cars.
I don't know anything about the Jones auto, but there is a Great Smith* in the collections of the Kansas Museum of History in Topeka. The last time I was there, in 2004, the Kansas State Historical Society had it prominently displayed. The Sellers was built in Hutchinson, Kansas. My Grandpa had a wall clock used in the Sellers factory for many years.
* A friend in Iowa lent me a book called "Great Cars of the Great Plains", by Curt McConnell, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln and London: 1995. It has a 44-page chapter about this make, including an account of a 1908 Great Smith going up Pike's Peak in October of that year. It took eleven days, because of a blizzard forcing the five-man crew to spend eight days in the summit hotel on the 26-mile expedition.
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Matt,
Sorry your attempt to help didn't work out better. Did you get a chance to tell them that you and your wife own an Audi with the same engine type? I suppose the husband was going to be in a bad mood, no matter who you were.
I remember a different story ( but same type of guy ) that a farmer near Manhattan, Kansas told me. One Sunday afternoon, a guy with a new BMW got his car stuck in the mud when he went off the road near his place. Larry fired up his tractor and drove over to pull him out. While he was down in the mud, attaching his chains to some suitable tow-points, the guy yells: "Make sure you don't damage anything on my $40,000 car!". Larry holds his temper, but unhooks the chains, puts them back in the John Deere, and quietly tells the guy: "I wouldn't want to damage anything on my $80,000 tractor, either. Call Triple-A." Then he drives back home in the tractor.
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I live in Idaho, and just joined the AACA in January. My state is one of the ones that has no chapters or regions listed within it. Am I part of any region like a Western Region or Mountain Region?
---------Jeff in northeast Idaho
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I live in Idaho, and just joined the AACA in January. My state is one of the ones that has no chapters or regions listed within it. Am I part of any region like a Western Region or Mountain Region?
---------Jeff in northeast Idaho
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I have a Model A on it's third or fourth engine. The last time the engine was changed, a motor from a combine was used. Some pull-type combines, like Gleaner, used Ford T and A engines to drive the header and other machinery in the twenties and thirties.
My question is: " If my car was ever entered into a judged antique car show, would I have points taken off for 'Having a Combine Engine In Car', or is that a non-issue?". The motor WAS built by Ford and IS in a Model A...it just was originally installed in a farm implement. The engine, for all practical purposes, conforms to Model A engines in appearance. I'm told that the cams in these applications may have been either slightly milder or slightly hotter than A engines in general. --- Jeff
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I have a Model A on it's third or fourth engine. The last time the engine was changed, a motor from a combine was used. Some pull-type combines, like Gleaner, used Ford T and A engines to drive the header and other machinery in the twenties and thirties.
My question is: " If my car was ever entered into a judged antique car show, would I have points taken off for 'Having a Combine Engine In Car', or is that a non-issue?". The motor WAS built by Ford and IS in a Model A...it just was originally installed in a farm implement. The engine, for all practical purposes, conforms to Model A engines in appearance. I'm told that the cams in these applications may have been either slightly milder or slightly hotter than A engines in general. --- Jeff
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...some of the guys were talking about how the economy was down, and one of them said to me he was "bottom feeding" that week, with the lowered prices on housing. I replied to him that I wondered how downturns in the national economy would affect the economy in an upper-class resort community like the one we were in. His answer was that there wasn't any connection at all: the money there was "play money" and had not a thing to do with The Economy. I think with significant collector cars, it might be the same. Someone who works at Walmart, even if he's the manager and makes $90,000 a year, isn't going to look at good fall sales and decide whether he's buying a V-16 Marmon or not for the show and concours season. By the way, the gentleman I was talking to had bought a $5,000,000 house for $3,000,000 that week, even though he already owned ANOTHER second home in this resort town.
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...some of the guys were talking about how the economy was down, and one of them said to me he was "bottom feeding" that week, with the lowered prices on housing. I replied to him that I wondered how downturns in the national economy would affect the economy in an upper-class resort community like the one we were in. His answer was that there wasn't any connection at all: the money there was "play money" and had not a thing to do with The Economy. I think with significant collector cars, it might be the same. Someone who works at Walmart, even if he's the manager and makes $90,000 a year, isn't going to look at good fall sales and decide whether he's buying a V-16 Marmon or not for the show and concours season. By the way, the gentleman I was talking to had bought a $5,000,000 house for $3,000,000 that week, even though he already owned ANOTHER second home in this resort town.
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Matt,
I thought that was a great post about collector car prices and an interesting sidebar on 5 cars to get into the hobby with. I actually guessed right on the first car on the list (Packard 120). The discussion of blue chip car prices reminds me of a conversation I was having with a few millionaires in the Duchin Room in Sun Valley once...More later.
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Matt,
I thought that was a great post about collector car prices and an interesting sidebar on 5 cars to get into the hobby with. I actually guessed right on the first car on the list (Packard 120). The discussion of blue chip car prices reminds me of a conversation I was having with a few millionaires in the Duchin Room in Sun Valley once...More later.
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"They say it's a bear market for antique cars up in Canada." -Kathy Brown
Peerless Records??
in Peerless
Posted
Kevin,
I talked to the Peerless Motor Car Club President, Richard Lichtfeld, on the phone a couple of hours ago and mentioned that you had an interesting photo posted here on the Peerless Forum. He said he would look at it.
If interested in joining the Peerless Motor Car Club, it's $20.00 U.S. and $30.00 Foreign. The Club's website at: www.peerlessmotorcar.com has info on dues. Mailing address of Club: The PEERLESS MOTOR CAR CLUB, Inc., 5001 Femrite Drive, Madison, WI 53716. Members receive a newsletter six to ten times a year which is usually four to twelve pages. The first installment of Mr. Lichtfeld's Peerless History came out in January, covered 1865-1905, and was 30 pgs.
I agree with you and Bryan Moran that the publishing of a book about Peerless would be a benefit to the marque, current and future owners of Peerlesses, and the cars themselves. I have written an outline for such a book, and have been cataloging surviving cars for some time. I do think that it's a worthwhile project -- plus, the subject hasn't been done to death. As another Peerless Club Member, Philippe Mordant, has pointed out, "You can't have The 3 P's of Premium Motoring without Peerless."
The outline I drew up is pretty straightforward, but one could go about it a different way, as you said. In addition to writing about Peerless in the context of the 1910's or 1920's, it would be neat to show that there are things about Peerless cars that relate to more recent vehicles. Open up the book with a transcript of a television interview at a typical car show:
Have the reporter, who's secretly a Peerless fanatic, go up to the owner of a 1960's car and ask "Have you ever heard of a Peerless?"
Owner says "No."
TV Guy says "They were built in Cleveland for 32 years and were big innovators in the car business". TV Guy asks if he can put Post-it Notes on parts of his car that Peerless either pioneered, helped pioneer, or patented.
Owner says "Yes.", expecting either no notes stuck on his car, or maybe one for something trivial like two-tone paint.
TV Guy quickly puts Post-its all over the place. Here are some he could place:
1. Hood - Pioneering placement of motor up front, instead of under the seat (1902)
2. Driveshaft - Pioneering use of shaft drive from front-engine to rear axle (1902)
3. Differential - Pioneering use of bevel-gear differential (1902)
4. Universal Joint - Pioneering use (1902)
5. Frame - Pioneering use of channel steel frame (1902)
6. 4-Speed Transmission - First used on Green Dragon race cars and Patented (about 1904)
7. Accellerator Pedal - Pioneering use on passenger cars (1904)
8. Some Aluminum Part of the 60's Car - Helped pioneer use of aluminum in body and motor to save weight (1900)
9. Carburetor - Helped pioneer 4-barrel carburetor (Dual Power Range Eight in 1917)
10. V-8 - Helped pioneer V-8's in America (1916)
11. Really Big Engine - Helped pioneer use of big engines. No matter what kind of 60's car this is...it doesn't have a bigger motor than a Model 37 Peerless: 825 cubic inches. (1912-1914)
At this point Owner asks TV Guy if he's done with the Post-it Notes yet.
Obviously, this interview hasn't happened, but it might be a way to start a discussion with someone about Peerless cars, or introduce a book for a mass audience! --Jeff