Dave Mitchell
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Posts posted by Dave Mitchell
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The duPont G series had hydraulic brakes also, and perhaps earlier models also.
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I have front and rear axles complete that you can use as spares with Howard's chassis. Dave Mitchell packard12s@hotmail.com
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What a great story Art, thanks for sharing it. I think that the history behind these cars is absolutely fascinating and whenever one can get even a small piece of it, that is a tantalizing glimpse into a different world. The most fun is to find that elusive and very personal connection that you found with the Lincoln. I will remember fondly when the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the original owner of my Swedish bodied Packard came to see the old family car, and the day I spent with Chris Bohman's widow riding in the car her husband worked on some 57 years before.
The classics, often owned by people who had things like wonderful private rose gardens (tended by a staff gardener), evoke thoughts of a life of style and grace and the ability to have things that were the best they could be, in every way pleasing to the senses. For me, the original cars are particularly like time machines in that sense, and for that reason I am more concerned with preserving them. I have seen cars restored to get trophies that didn't need to be done, and when they are it seems like a little bit of that history slips away.
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I think that this is just a well made home built unit. It is not from Packard. As the real units became scarce, people made some very unusual filters up, and they were very resourceful in making ones that didn't leak. This one looks pretty typical to me. Just about every car I buy or work on has some odd replacement on it, either home built of aftermarket, or just a tube where the filter once was. You will probably be happiest with either finding an original type filter and putting a kit in it to accept a spin on, if you don't mind spending some quality time with an oil filter, or buying one of the well made repops set up for a modern filter. If you don't mind the looks of this one, you can probably put a spin on filter in it.
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The CCCA has many smart members who are willing to work and make something happen that is important in preserving the history of great and unusal cars, and I am sure that once we get a group that is interested in original cars, the club will give judging more than a one time chance. When I was there I saw a lack of desire and since, only a half hearted effort to support Harry and make this work. If the club put as much effort into original cars as it does dealing with and welcoming new coachwork cars, thing would be very different. I do believe that originals can be judged as it works well with the AACA HPOF class and currently there are two different teams at Pebble Beach that manage to judge preservation cars. I have evaluated classics many times for ribbons at Grand Classics, and have seldom had a problem reaching a consensus with the other directors who looked at them. I guess that we weren't judging them as there is no judging class, but I don't think it is impossible to give the cars that full measure of recognition, and a trophy. It may not be easy, and time may make it more difficult, but time also makes judging authenticity more difficult and the club doesn't back down from that, and takes pride in using hobbyists from the general membership to do it. You may give out one trohpy too many, but that happens when judging restored cars too. In fact, the more original cars we lose as benchmarks for restoration, the harder it will be to judge authenticity. If the original cars garner more attention, perhaps one day we will have one that has a chance to be judged as an equal of the restored cars. Until then, it seems that the club will continue to treat them as second class cars and members like our friend who replied previously will take his car to AACA meets instead, which will only be a loss to the CCCA. The more "dipped in plastic" restored cars I see, the more I appreciate those that are original.
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Do you think that the CCCA should do more to recognize original unrestored cars? Most clubs (like the AACA HPOF)and some concours (Pebble Beach) have a class for them - do these classes work and do you like seeing them at meets or showing them if you own one?
It seems to me that people still think that the CCCA is only for over-restored cars. Maybe doing more to encourage originals to be preserved and brought to Grand Classics would help the Club. Bringing such cars into the mainstream network of judging and awards would make owners feel more welcome and part of the process. It might even improve the quality of restorations as people would see what the cars really looked like when they were built. Do you agree?
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West, I think you are right, there is very little difference in the 32 and 33. The top on the 32 drops more in the back and is more sporty and I think better looking. I am not sure if the metal spare covers were new for 33 or just an option, as the other 32s I know of have or originally had canvas covers. There is a badge on the headlight tie bar that says "Twin Ignition 8" I think, and that was new for 33 or added in late 32, and the instruments are completely different in 33 from the second series 32. Otherwise, I think they are basically the same car. I will admit that I haven't seen the 33 in person since the annual meeting in Colorado a few years ago, but that is how it looks to me.
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I like 1938s - I have 4 of them, 7 pass sedan, limo, conv sedan, and 5 pass sedan, in various states of repair, and most of two more, a 5 pass and a 7 pass. While the 38s aren't the most popular or the most valuable, those who have them will tell you that they are arguably the best of the V12s to drive. The balance is very good and the systems are as refined as they got in the 12s. I would advise you to really do your homework before taking on a rebuild as a DIY project. I know several restorers who are good at other types of cars who have done a less than perfect job on a V12 engine as they don't know the problems and things you have to deal with on a V12. Your average machine shop has never seen one and they aren't used to boring an engine where the top of the block is not perpendicular to the bore, or had to take the counterweights off the crank to grind it. You will need some special tools, but that is another DIY project if you want to make them. The other problem is that the Packard manuals are not the best, so that increases the difficulty factor. I don't doubt that you can do it, but make sure you learn all you can before you jump into it. It helps to know where to buy what and which things commonly advertized that you should avoid. The secret here is to make one run really well, rather than just getting it to run. There are a lot of 12s that just run.
I also like to work on these cars, to assemble things and make them work like they did when new. I enjoy saving a car from being parted out, making something out of nothing, or taking a sad old restoration and making it beautiful and fun to drive. Then I enjoy showing and driving it that much more.
I don't agree with you that you should be able to fix your car or you shouldn't own it. I have no clue about fixing the computer contolled things on my Jeep or Suburban and have little interest in it, I take it to the dealer for most everything. I have friends who love their cars, but aren't really mechanically inclined, and it is better if they leave the car alone instead of breaking the delicate bits and then taking the pieces to someone to work miracles on them. I don't think that means that they should sell their car. Some people only like the cars for the design and engineering and are happy to see it just stationary as a work of art, some like to just show them and not drive them. I have a friend who can fix most anything and does fantastic, world class restoration in his garage, better than most professionals, but will not drive his car once it is done and perfect. Ok with me, it is whatever he wants and enjoys, and I like to see it.
When it comes to judging, most of the points taken off in CCCA judging are for quality issues with cosmetics or functional items that don't work - like lights or clocks - not with authenticity, and everyone is an expert on paint and chrome, so what you do for a living or whether you can put together your engine seldom makes a difference. In fact, professional restorers aren't usually the first choice for judges, even though they would probably be fairer and more lenient than some of the fanatical hobbyists.
I am glad that anyone who is interested in the classics buys them, the more the merrier I say. I am not interested in the stock market, but I don't hold it against the guys that make money with it, as long as they don't want hold it against me that I don't have a clue about it. I don't like blood or looking in people's mouths, so I wouldn't be a good doctor or dentist, and law bores me, so I am really glad those folks do those jobs and I am very happy if they buy lots of cars and take them to people who know them and love to work on them, and then show them to guys who wouldn't otherwise see them at shows. I have other friends who could work on their cars, but are way too busy doing whatever it is that makes them money so they can buy and restore more cars. I don't think that this is the sole realm of the CCCA either, there are plenty of rich guys in other clubs. I will never be rich, so I hope that they accept me not for my money, but because I can work on their cars, which is a pretty odd and not really well respected skill set. If you tell people that you restore cars from the 30s, the best it gets you is a quizical look and that they tell you "that sounds interesting". Who knows what kind of nut they really think you are! And trust me, you will never, ever get rich restoring old cars.
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I'd come and bring a bunch of prewar parts. Dave Mitchell packard12s@hotmail.com
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I'll be able to more accurately tell you that in a few weeks when I get the machine shop bill on this engine for cleaning, checking it, boring it, putting hardened seats in for exhaust valves, align boring the mains, grinding the crank (and taking off the counterweights) I think that the last one was about $4000. If you rebabbit the bearings they are about $1200. Sometimes the main and cam bearings are ok, and that saves some money. You can spend anywhere from 900 to 1800 on pistons, and I will have to look up and see what valve train parts are, and guess on head and manifold gaskets - we make the rest - but I would guess that your fixed costs are going to be over $10,000 with no labor included. The heads and covers usually need some work somewhere, and you end up making new studs and other hardware, and buying some stainless and polishing it. You can spend a fair amount of time on the valve blocks and I am not sure if the silencers are still available - I haven't seen an ad for new ones for a long time and the last repop ones I got were rusty and I had to send them back. Adjusting the valves properly takes a couple days, the Egge valves are way too long and it takes time to cut them down. There is a lot of work on a 12, but they are fantastic engines when done. You can also do other things like aluminum rods or put in inserts, etc. I always do it to the point that I run it on a stand, so that I know everything is ok, even with a 120 motor, so I can't say exactly about doing one just as a long block, but we could do that. A lot depends on how you want the cosmetics. I personally think that the blocks weren't overly finished, I think that the correct thing is to prime it with an etch primer, one coat of primer sanded and them paint the block, but some people want the casting marks all ground smooth and that takes a lot more time. There are a lot of pieces to paint, so even if you don't do a lot of metal finishing or filling, it still takes some time. What year are you thinking of doing?
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That is a 39 12 block that I am just stripping to rebuild. I have several V12 engines waiting to be done. I am very lucky to have a man working with me who has been rebuilding Packards for 40 years and is a fanatical perfectionist with incredible knowledge of all the little tricks of rebuilding these engines and having them silent and powerful when you get done. I have a 37 12 that I have put about 18,000 miles on and it is a dream to drive.
Seriously, give the CCCA another chance - I have met some of my best friends through the CCCA and had great fun seeing and doing things I never would have done if I hadn't gotten involved
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looks like the frame photo didn't attach
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The price that the 33 was bid to is interesting as there is a 32 that needs a total restoration for sale for $100K now.
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side view of Nash
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Nash frame, light, but strong
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Nash photo
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For sale, very nice V-16 Cad fender badges, also 2 16 in wheels for late 30s V16, possibly 75 series also. Dave Mitchell packard12s@hotmail.com
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Wanted, nice reliable driver, older restoration or nice original car, need not be perfect, but presentable. Might consider an otherwise nice car that needs engine work. Prefer 39 Super 8, will consider 40 or 41, or perhaps Supers back to 37, or even Standard 8 back to 35, overdrive a big plus, no project cars, limited budget narrows this to sedans and cars under $30,000. Thanks, Dave Mitchell packard12s@hotmail.com
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K8096 - It sounds like you are attacking the CCCA for something they are not guilty of. There is absolutely another standard set up by the concours now that transcends the judging and "atmosphere" of the CCCA. The CCCA stands firm on being about authenticity and point judging, not trends in paint colors, and in being much more forgiving in terms of judging paint and chrome. You can have any color on your car and not be docked for it in CCCA. There are perfect cars at CCCA events, but the vast majority are not, and there are definitely drivers and original cars at EVERY Grand Classic and Annual meeting, and also there are sedans and cars that will never get an invitation to Meadowbrook or Pebble. People say that there are no affordable classics, but that isn't true. Also you can still go to a Grand Classic and have a good time and not spend a fortune, which you can easily do at some concours. I would encourage you to give the CCCA a chance as I think you will find that you are wrong, there are far more average people there than you claim, and drivers and show cars are both welcomed, and you will have a good time with the people, going places and seeing things that you won't otherwise. Plus you get to see a few of the cars that have gone or will go to Pebble as part of the deal and most of the guys that own those cars, even though they have more money, are decent people and love the cars, otherwise they wouldn't spend that kind of money on them.
There are people who buy low priced classics and repaint them a color that they like, that is just human nature to make something pleasing to you, we just don't think it is as big of a deal since they didn't pay big bucks for it in the first place, when in fact they are spending a much greater percentage of the purchase price to redo it than the high dollar car. Just because a car is expensive, it doens't mean it is the way you want it, especially if it is a rare model, you may have to take the one that comes up for sale. Besides, sometimes people want to make the car their own. For years the 33 phaeton was known as the old Yost car, but as soon as it was painted, people quit calling it that. It could have been called the New York show car, since it was, and it perhaps it was painted the unusual color to make it stand out at the show, but it wasn't the most pleasing color.
I actually liked the red on the 540K, but it was not a color that MB typically painted big series cars, and I doubt that it would be painted that color now. I like red cars though. There for a while we saw purple, gold, lavender and odd greens and blues. Noel Thompson championed some unusual colors on exotic cars, but these colors persisted into the 90s too. I think that the 34 Dietrich sedan, with a flawless Chris Charleton restoration is being repainted now, and I venture to say that the paint on it was better than the other cars we are talking about. The blue color on the leBaron doesn't do a thing for me, and if I had the kind of money to buy it, the cost of a paint job wouldn't be that much in comparison.
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I can't argue with that Al, some people shy away from cars that they don't know about and the Nash suffers from underexposure as there are so few of them around. They are cars that actually look like the catalog photos! The sedans are just as dramatic. This car has a folding windshield and looks great with the top up or down and is a nice car to drive with Bijur lubrication and ride control, a 9 main bearing twin ignition 8 with aluminum rods and pistons and a nice light chassis. The frames are lightened like an SSK!
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I agree with West, this is a very nice car and I am surprised that it didn't bid higher, considering the amount of money spent on its restoration. I suspect that it has less to do with present quality than the fact that people know very little about what a great car this is. I am restoring one now and it has some great engineering features and is a really pleasing, high quality car all around, certainly on a par with most well respected high end classics, and much rarer. After a fair amount of looking, I can only find solid evidence of 4 32s and the 1 33 90 series convertible sedan still existing, and one of those is in Europe. Hopefully people will learn more about these very interesting cars.
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West, I would say that there is still a difference in a fresh restoration and one done 15 or 20 years ago. First of all, in most cases, restoration standards have changed. A car can have maintenance and still look great, (like the 37 1508 Convertible sedan that Dave Miller had, few get that sort of intensive care) but paint seldom stays perfect, and if a car is driven, some damage is unavoidable, and if it isn't driven, that isn't good for it either, electrical connections corrode and gaskets dry up etc. The Nash and the Kane roadster may still well score 100pts at a Grand Classic, but if you take them to Pebble against a fresh restoration, they won't do as well. There are also definite trends in colors that are popular at shows and that do well, and I don't think that the leBaron or the Dietrich fit that current trend, regardless of original color. Most everyone agreed that the 33 12 Dietrich phaeton that Morgan Yost restored to its original mint green was still a 100pt car and had won many points shows, but would be worth more in a different color. Dave Kane repainted that car in dark, dark green and it has done well at concours it is highly regarded now and in the Mozart collection. There was a 745 convertible victoria that had a high point restoration in the original multi tone light green combo with orange highlights, and it also took a very long time to sell. I am not saying that these cars should be repainted, I am saying that having the original color does not help them in shows where anything but authenticity is judged and it tends to harm them in the marketplace, if they don't match the current trends. Shows like Meadowbrook are great shows, and it is fun to go there and see the cars you wouldn't otherwise see, but you have judged there, can you honestly say that originality and authenticity are at the top of the judging criteria priority? These shows tend to disregard originality in favor of what is the flavor of the month, and honor cars that aren't always the best or most accurate restorations. The winners are lauded for what they have done, and how much they have spent and the average hobbiest thinks that they have just seen a perfectly restored car justly rewarded. If it weren't for concours, we would never see ostrich, reptile or manta ray interiors in classics that originally had plain old leather or wool. I am fairly fanatical about putting things back to the way they were, but that isn't always the smartest move in a financial sense and the market and most concours won't reward you. That said, we can hope for the glory of having the nicely restored cars featured in Antique Automobile! I just got my new issue today - fantastic - what you have done with the magazine is just terrific.
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There was a modular flying car all set up in an "exploded" display at Retromobile in Paris last year, just as if you had just detached the wings to drive away. I would guess it was from the late 60s or early 70s. I will send you a photo of it if I can find it. It was very cool and had a prominent place at the show and was always surrounded with curious crowds. I had never seen one. I think that there was a photo of it in flight there also.
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Hi John, I have no doubt that your 16 your old grandson knows more about most cars that I do, and I applaud him for that, and you have a far greater knowledge than I do too. I shouldn't even be on here since I just own, drive and work on a few cars of a very limited type and year range, I am no historian. I have been lucky enough to meet some very interesting people who worked with custom body building in the 30s, luckily enough those who worked on three of the custom bodied cars that I own, and my knowledge there is also very limited. I don't want to argue with you about anything, I will be happy to go away. OK, if you say that the Packard 12 had 366 pound feet of torque, you are certainly right, I and the manual that I have were off by 34+ ftlb. I just get carried away talking about the cars that I like, I didn't mean to misinform anyone. Can you tell me the horsepower and torque increase with the factory high compression heads on the V12? I never said that my car has a 4.41 rear axle, it doesn't - I said that most of them came with it, and that I believe is correct. I only have 11 V12s in various states of disrepair, so my sample is small. I know that these cars are not what the folks on this forum are most interested in.
I will dispute you on one thing however. I never said that I look down my nose at any other type of car. You do not know me or you wouldn't say that. I just happen to like 20s - 40s big classics best. I have a couple of non classics too. I had 2 55 Packards, a 400 and a Patrician, along with a 2106 club sedan, and they were nice cars to drive, but not my favorites, that doesn't mean that I don't like the people who own cars like that or that I can't appreciate them for what they are. I like what I like and as you say that is life. That is why they make chocolate and vanilla - not everyone likes the same thing. I have worked on Bugattis, duPont, Buicks, Duesenbergs, Rolls Royces, Auburn, Ruxton, Lincolns, Jensen, Cadillacs, Nash, Chrysler, DeSoto, Plymouth, Velie, Stutz, Studebaker, Hispano Suiza, Chevrolet and Marmon, to name a few, so I think I am lucky to have had that great of an exposure to unusual cars. But these were all prewar, and mostly classics. When it comes to cars I like best, I still prefer the 35 - 41 Packard Seniors and juniors and have some of each from all years in that range except for 1940. I have a couple of GM cars too and I like them. I haven't worked on brass cars, but that doesn't mean I don't like them, same with Ferraris and 300SLs, and racing Porsches. I would love to educate myself and work on more types of cars, and I hope that I will have the chance. I don't know anything about Model Ts either, but had great fun riding in one with a friend and I think it would be fun to own one and go on tours in it. I will be the first to admit that I would like to know more. I have been lucky enough to see some very nice cars and go to some great shows, but I just don't have the time and money to go to all the things that I would like to. So yes it is a shame that my interest is so narrow, but I have focused on what I like best to do what I can with the time I have. I am sorry if I upset you.
Early Automobile brakes 1918 to 1942
in General Discussion
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Scott, Packard used hydraulics on the juniors in 35 and on the seniors starting in 37. I have and like both systems on the seniors, both having power assist. A well maintained mechanical system will work fine, even with 6000 pound cars, in fact my 34 Cad is almost 7000 pounds and the power assisted mechanicals seem adequate to me.