540K

I'll take it, and it won't cost you but $1500.

I agree with alsancle. If (1) you can prove this car left the factory as a Sindelfingen roadster, (2) you find an original 540K engine and (3) you restore to factory specs with no shortcuts, then you might have something worth spending $1M or more on. If you aren't willing to do an exact restoration, sell it as is to someone who will. I don't know about overseas, but in the US, you'd be looking at at least five years' work. If you can prove it is an original roadster with no title disputes, I might know someone interested in buying what you have.

The Hans Prym family Spezial Roadster sold today for approximately $5,925,000 (4.6M Euro + 15% commission). A little over $2M increase in price (approx 60%) in five years, so it's difficult to argue it should have gone for more, but I thought it would almost double in value.

The Hans Prym family Spezial Roadster sold today for approximately $5,925,000 (4.6M Euro + 15% commission). A little over $2M increase in price (approx 60%) in five years, so it's difficult to argue it should have gone for more, but I thought it would almost double in value. It has doubled in value since RM sold it in 2001.

The Cab A from P.B.C.

Here is the Maybach from P.B.C.

yes, the 290 is the green duotone in the photo above. It has been in the MB tent this week alongside the big white Maybach, 300S, the just-revealed new MB Maybach coupe, etc. The latter looks like a 20-year-old's design that belongs at SEMA, but it is sexy. Some would probably call it a penismobile.

The other MB at Pebble is a 290 Cab A, not a 320.

Found out this morning that there were only 2 MB entries for Pebble Beach this year, so there is no MB class. One is a Cab A and the other might be a 320, but I havent gotten a good look at it yet.

Off topic, but the auction house premiums discussed above vary depending on the house. RM Sotheby's is currently king of the hill, and seller's want to be part of it. "King of the hill" meaning not just RM Sotheby's results and number of sales, but marketing ability. I believe they can reach significantly more wealthy persons around the globe through their own database, because Sotheby's has been around for 100 years. The buyer's premium must have an affect on bidding at some point, but obviously sellers do not think RM's premium structure will affect their net. The house is going to keep raising their premiums until sellers and buyers exert pressure by not consigning or bidding. If RM Sothebys can sustain their premium structure without it affecting consignments and bidding, the other houses are going to follow their lead. High water raises all boats. The market is softer than it was 2 years ago, but the media seems content to say sellers should just expect lower hammer prices. I don't see anyone calling out the houses to reduce premiums. Maybe there is a tipping point if houses like Bonham's and Gooding have lower premiums and RM loses the ability to attract consignments. Also, you never know what the seller's commission is. It is negotiable, whereas the buyer's commission is not (to my knowledge). I know of instances where seller's commission was waived just to get the consignment (and buyer's premium) for a top car. So, 25% of the first dollars - the market is bearing it, and it's up to the market to correct it. If there are enough major players who agree with mercer09, maybe the premiums change. Bottom line could be that these players are in a whole different ballpark than most folks, and the premium structure is nearly irrelevant. Until 25% of bid X is less than 10% of bid Y, the premium is going to be 25%.

Are any of you who are active in this forum going to be at Pebble Beach? Maybe we can meet at some point during the week.

Bonham's is now stating in the auction catalog that the German court decision in 2012 was in fact preliminary only, and subsequent negotiations led to a final and comprehensive settlement regarding the car. How comprehesive it really is, I don't know. Did it include RM or Lyon? All we are likely to know is that title is truly settled in the Prym family, and value/bidding should not be any issue next month.

I poked around a little more online but haven't found transcripts of the court proceedings. Most of the reporting has been by automobile journals, so finding anything from a true legal perspective has proved difficult. The most complete description of the court's decision that I have found is here: http://www.elginism.com/similar-cases/mercedes-benz-500k-spezial-car-looted-by-the-nazis-siezed-at-essen-techno-classica-car-fair/20120717/4847/ You'll notice right away " The auctioneer allegedly refused to hand-over the vehicle." That suggests pretty strongly that Lyon and RM, at least, knew ownership was disputed, but that language is qualified by "allegedly" and may just be the author's hyperbole. One thing I had not noticed before is that the court decision was only an "initial" or preliminary decision that the Prym family's claim survives the statute of limitations defense. (A statute of limitations is a law that requires a lawsuit to be filed within a certain number of years, or your claim will be dismissed.) One website stated: “The court has recognized our claim is valid and we will prepare the next stage and file suit for the car’s return,” said Alexander Martius of Stein & Partner Rechtsanwaelte in Aachen, the lawyer who represented the heirs in court. So, this case never went to a full trial, as far as I can determine. The German court suggested the statute of limitations under US law had not run out either, so why did the Pryms not pursue the case in the US 30 or 40 years ago when they first raised the issue? All sorts of things have been returned to war victims without the object returning to Germany or another occupied country. So perhaps there was some weakness in the Prym's case as well, had they gone to trial. Since the car is going to auction, there is obviously not going to be a full trial, and there is not likely to ever be a public record of testimony on the history of the car beyond 1945. I now think A.J and others are correct that there was a private settlement between all the players so that the case would not drag on for years in German or US courts. If van Haren was going to pursue RM or Lyon in a US court, it seems like we would have heard about that by now.

I show a couple of 540K's with lower chassis numbers, and one Autobahn Kurrier with a higher chassis number that is listed as a 500K with a 540K replacement engine. Other than that one, 130899 is the highest 500K chassis I have found.

Yes, that's apparently DBAG's argument, and I understand it. I just don't agree with it. I think the more public information there is about these cars, the better the marketplace is protected. If a car shows up with a VIN that no one has any record of since WWII, the buyer would then know that there better be a clear history of ownership. It would also help potential buyers to know what body style the known VINs had from the factory. Other marques have almost complete, public records of every chassis (Duesenberg comes to mind immediately). It would be extremely difficult to fake a "lost" Duesenberg because there is an extensive and public catalog of each chassis. Yes, if from this hypothetical catalog someone knows chassis number xxxxxx left the factory as an innenlenker, and the car has not surfaced in 70 years, that would aid a criminal in creating a "barn find." But it also aids the marketplace because he can't make it into a more valuable roadster. Okay, say xxxxxx is a "lost" roadster; at least the potential buyer knows he needs to research it thoroughly, and perhaps the fact that it could be a replica will stick to the car like stink on Shinola and warn other prospective buyers. That way the value should adjust accordingly.

Criminal law requires intent. If you do not know the bicycle was stolen and do not intend to deprive the true owner of the property, you cannot be found guilty of receiving stolen property. You may lose the bike and your money, but that's all. Your hypothetical is all circumstantial evidence. People will say, "You should have known better," but that's not proof of criminal intent. If you change the facts and say the buyer knew the true owner had reported it stolen, THEN you're getting a free ride to and overnight accomodations at the pokey. The good faith purchaser concept is complicated, for sure. It doesn't protect thieves or people who know the property is stolen. It only protects innocent purchasers until a court repudiates the voidable title. What that means is that an innocent purchaser's title is "good" and the property can be sold any number of times to other innocent purchasers. The big "but" is that the "good" title is voidable - it can be taken away by a court determination. But until a court says your title is bad, it's your car and you can sell or maintain possession. It really is valid ownership; it's just that it can be taken away in court. Splitting hairs, certainly. Clear as mud?

General Lyon was the consignor, and, from what very little I know, it is difficult to imagine he would take a haircut without a fight. I can understand RM wanting to keep him happy, particularly if they think there is going to be an Estate sale in the near future. The catalogs all state that sales are "as is, where is" with no warranties as to condition, provenance, previous ownership, etc. etc. and no obligation to verify information provided by the consignor or third parties.I read somewhere that the Pryms wrote to the new owner each time the car changed hands since the mid-1970's, and perhaps a question of actionable fraud arises. The auction catalog said that the car's history between Prym's purchase and the 1970's was "unknown at this time." Did Lyon or RM intentionally withhold information about the Prym family's claim, or did each previous owner assume the risk with knowledge of their claim? This is undoubtably a significant car - the Berlin Auto Show display car. Could the Prym claim have motivated Lyon to sell? I guess we'll never know. In American law, the concept of the good faith purchaser for value protects the innocent buyer from the tainted title of the seller. I believe the theory suggests that all the previous American buyers obtained "good" title and could freely sell the car up until a court repudiated their voidable titles. This may mean that in the musical chairs of passing this car around, the music stopped before van Haren could sell to someone else. I don't know, but I think that does not end the discussion if there was willful concealment of the Prym family's claim. It would be really interesting to know what each party knew or was advised before the auction. I find it very curious that the German court ruled that the 30-year statute of limitations only began to run when the car returned to German soil. I would have thought there would be some international court process for the Pryms to at least get a judgement, even if it could not be enforced until the car was on German soil. I suppose the court's reasoning was that they had no jurisdiction unless the car was there.

Thank goodness for Jan Melin!! It's a shame all of Melin's research files went to DBAG, but he had no way to know back then that DBAG would prohibit access to future historians.

The second of Joe Johnson's Special Roadster replicas is on eBay. Bidding has reached $78,000 so far, with reserve not met. It's being offered by a dealer, but I don't know if it has ever been sold (the dealer refused to answer). The first car got a high bid of $450K two years ago (more than double my opinion of its value, so what do I know). Joe said he was going to ask $1M for the second car. It's a nice looking car, much better than any of the kits, but you could pick it apart on details. Better than the kits, but not nearly to the level of Prahl or Nawrocki rebodied cars, and of course the chassis is modern with a 560SL engine. If I was going to this much trouble on a modern chassis, I'd make it much more powerful with beefed up suspension so it could really be driven hard.

I agree with AlSanCle. The title issue is 100% resolved, and no future owner need worry about defending it. For that reason, I think the car sells big - great story and title that cannot be further questioned. The sale almost has the air of a charity sale - proceeds going to a family victimized 70 years ago. The money issue between van Haren, RM and the consignor is interesting, but it won't affect any future owner. I think one shouldn't lump together all automobiles brought back by servicemen after WWII. They weren't all stolen. I know of a chassis that an American soldier acquired outside of Germany, but that was all that was left of the car after being wrecked during the war. The car's body did not survive at all -- just a twisted chassis and an engine that had a hole through the block. It was described as "wreckage," and was most likely abandoned. By that time it was nothing more than the carcass of an old, used car. By any modern definition of being a total loss with only salvage value, this was it. The wreckage sat for over 30 years before anything was done with it. It is a small miracle that it still exists. I had the story wrong, apparently. I thought the car had been stolen by the Nazis and then taken by American soldiers, but Bonham's says the car was stolen by American soldiers directly from the Prym family.

Speaking of "low-door" special roadsters, does anyone know the chassis number of the brown one in the M-B Museum?

The midde photo shows a radio aerial and chrome trim around the exhaust pipes on the hood (bonnet). The bumper(s) don't appear to have any rubber. There is also something odd about the apron area - looks like some kind of bracket, and only one trumpet horn. Five lights in the front (plus the fender lights). Body colored wheels. All those things pretty well set it apart, but could have been changed during a restoration. The third car doesn't have a stone guard, otherwise I'd say it's the Prym car. Maybe the top car is the Prym car with different color leather. Have you looked in Melin's books for these cars?

Excellent point, but American and postwar cars can end up with questionable title after partnerships fail, handshake deals are not honored, thefts occur, years of neglect or lack of documentation. Give me one on which a court has recently settled title. But your example was "with paperwork," and you're right - documentation is the key. Yes, the theft is an unfortunate part of the history, but not just the theft per se, but that it was presumably stolen and used by the Nazis. I'll never understand why a Nazi-owned car commands a premium, but I suppose it is akin to celebrity ownership in a warped sense. Regardless, a car with a story is likely to sell for more than the same car without a story (celebrity owner, auto show display, actual pace cars, interesting "barn" finds like von Krieger, race history, movie/TV cars, etc.). Any effect on the value from the 1945 theft should be overcome by the fact that the proceeds of this sale are going to the rightful owner's family. As a result of the reparation, it is almost like a charity sale. If it was Barrett-Jackson I'm sure they'd have the family up on the podium telling their story. (rolling my eyes)

Yes, this is the safest car you can buy now. Ownership has already been settled by the court. Zero risk. I don't know why the original owner's family would not get 100% of the proceeds. I did not read about any settlement, and that's the only way anyone else would get money. The news report said the judge awarded ownership to the Prym family. No one else would get a dime. I don't know how the German courts work, but in the US the family would likely have recovered attorneys' fees and costs, giving them the car free and clear without any unrecouped litigation expense. Given that the German government seized the car, I'm not sure the family had any expense to begin with. Do you think the seller pocketed $3.7M (less the seller's commission)? Who is the big loser? The RM seller, the RM buyer or RM? Fascinating case. It's also interesting that RM is not the auction house in September, so they're not getting a 2nd bite at the apple. My guess - RM's consignment contracts are probably airtight to protect them from liability, and they were probably required under the contract to forward the sale proceeds to the seller without incurring any liability. So I believe the question is whether the Dutch buyer can recover from the seller. On one hand fairness seems to dictate that the seller should not profit, but on the other hand the Dutch buyer was in the same exact position as the seller - neither did enough homework and both took the risk. All the previous owners since 1945 took a gamble, but the rat trap slammed shut during the Dutch buyer's ownership - his bad luck. I think the buyer took the whole loss.

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23603/preview_lot/4987334/?category=list&length=10&page=1 Wow! The stolen roadster finally reappears! After the sale in 2011, the new owner took it to Germany where it was impounded. The German court awarded ownership back to the family from whom it was stolen in WWII. Now estimated at $5M? I think it does closer to $10M this time around with the title clear and the story. It's as good a story as the von Krieger. Well, maybe not $10M, but more than $5M.