JV Puleo
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Posts posted by JV Puleo
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I will keep going if this is fixed but the only "help" I have gotten thus far is a snarky comment on my "antiquated" equipment. I did get newer computer but there are limits to what I can afford. The latest and greatest is out of the question. Besides, this is the only forum I have problems with.
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When I click reply all I get is a box to load pictures. I can not enter text. This is with both Firefox and Chrome.
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This is likely the end of the Mitchell thread. Once again I have been "upgraded" off. Frankly, this site isn't worth the effort. As it is I can only reply via my phone and that is too tedious.
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I just found a rotten sill too. That's pretty serious in a house that's 300 years old. Strangely enough, I'm not all that worried. The MItchell project has taught em that there are always ways to fix things.
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If you are wondering where I've gone...I've decided to fix a pile of things at the house while the weather is cooperating. I hate working in the winter and much of this is outside. I've also decided to finish a couple of the rooms...a project that stopped 20 years ago. It wasn't so bad when I was along and no one ever came here but with a girlfriend I'm now embarrassed by it. She has seen it, and said she liked it but I still feel as if I should make the effort to at least get some of it finished. I'm also having a new furnace installed and that requires a major rearranging of the cellar which (I don't think anyone here will be surprised) is full of car and motorcycle parts. I'll post a few pictures when I remember to bring the camera home.
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5 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:
Sometimes it is tough being an "engineer" in a clueless world.
I'm not an engineer myself but I've spent a lot of time studying both materials and old machining practices to get an idea what was originally used, how the parts were made and why. I'll repeat that its a big mistake to presume the average car enthusiast knows more than the original designer. About 99% of the time he doesn't.
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19 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:
"Grades" of bolts and nuts is not the end-all, cure-all, go-to for what is "best".
Thirty years ago, I reworked a proper year engine for a model T that I was hoping to keep and use for the rest of my life. I took great care to put it together the best way I could. A supposedly minor issue at the time was that I had all but run out of model T wrist-pin bolts. The only thing I had ever used in that location was original model T Ford issued wrist pin bolts. While they have a distinctive look about them, taller than usual heads, long slim shank, a hole drilled through the head to wire it so that the bolt cannot back out? There is nothing really special about them. Almost any really good 3/8 24 thread bolt with ab appropriately length shank to fit against the wrist pin should work fine as long as some effort is made to keep it from baking out (several modern methods should work just fine and cannot be seen so far inside the engine once done).
However, that wrist pin bolt is in an extremely abusive location! the incredible stresses between the piston and the crankshaft, direction of stresses changing twenty to a hundred times per second! The pounding from the explosions above the piston, the draw from the intake stroke, vibrations of many sorts, heat cycles, all stressing that wrist pin and its bolt to the limits!
Being short on real model T wrist pin bolts, and having already tried to get some from my usual sources, I asked a longtime friend and machinist what he would recommend. His answer was that he didn't trust seventy year old wrist pin bolts, and always replaced them with either new suitable connecting rod bolts or modern grade eight bolts. I asked where he got his grade eight bolts and he rattled off a few hardware supply stores. I chose one I had been to before, and bought a handful of appropriate size grade eight bolts.
The engine ran great for the first several short trips, and then came its first big club tour, an overnight and about 300 hard miles!
About halfway through the first hundred miles, I became aware of a slight knock developing. And it was slowly getting worse. I began to suspect a wrist pin knock, I had had one a couple times before, and something unique in there behavior made me think I had one (or more?) again.
We got into the motel for that night, and off came the head and pan inspection cover. One of the offending bolts was so badly stripped of threads and buggered up, the rod had to come out and it took more than an hour to finagle that ruined grade eight bolt out of there. I had one real model T wrist pin bolt in my bolts can I was carrying on the tour, and one other suitably sized bolt. Of the four grade eight bolts I had put in the engine, Two had failed badly, and one was clearly already nearly failed. With two viable replacement bolts, I got the one apart out of the engine (after about an hour of cussing!), the other I managed to get apart and replace it in the engine!
A kiss and a prayer and we were back on the road the next morning. Day two was shorter and easier miles, however, less than halfway back we began to hear another wrist pin knock. The third one was heading for failure. We took a could short cuts, heading toward the finish as gently as we could under our own power.
We made arrangements to leave the car at a local friend's home for a few days, until I could return with my trailer to take it home.
The next weekend I again pulled the head and pan cover, rechecked all four rods, and preplaced all four wrist pin bolts with original ones I had scrounged up during the week.
Final assessment? All four modern grade eight bolts may have in fact been very hard. Certainly they were hard to cut with a hack saw (I know, I tried them!). And they may have been very difficult to bend? I tried that too. But under very tight toque, and vibration stresses? The threads broke off the bolt like so much brittle glass!
I have never been willing to trust grade eight bolts ever since.
You have reminded me of a story I read on the Practical Machinist forum. The gentleman that told the tale had been in charge of maintenance in, I think, a steel mill. They had a huge crane that was bolted down to a concrete base. The bolts, which were massive would stretch and had to be replaced at regular intervals. The previous maintenance man decided to "fix" this by replacing them with Grade 8 bolts. This worked for a while until they snapped and the crane literally fell over. That ended his job...and the fellow who told the story was hired and had to re-errect the crane.
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3 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:
I don’t think most bolts were machined from bar stock large enough in diameter to then machine a square or hex head in 1913. Processes for making threads by rolling in dies were developed by the 1880s, so a roll of wire would be cut into short pieces, placed in an upsetting die to forge the head, then the thread rolled. The wire diameter was smaller than the major diameter of the thread and the rolling process moved the metal both inward and outward as the thread was formed, but no swarf is produced. Machining from large bar stock would have been too slow, wasteful of material, and expensive. The American Screw Company in Providence, RI was an early volume manufacturer of wood screws and bolts using such rolling processes.
That's interesting. If they were heading bolts that early – or at least major manufacturers were – I wonder if the material they were using wasn't rather soft. I'm thinking of some of the car companies that made their own fasteners. I seem to remember reading that both Locomobile and Cadillac did and, if so, would they have used that process? Brown & Sharpe made a lever operated production milling machine that was advertised as ideal for machining bolt heads. I think they made their own and its only on machine tools that I've encountered heat treated bolts that early.
We used to have the Standard Nut & Bolt Company in Valley Falls. I've been in that plant. Everything looked as if it pre-dated WWI but I don't think I ever say the actual machines or, if I did, didn't know what I was looking at. You could go down there on a Saturday morning and the foreman would let you in and sell you whatever you wanted...at a very good price.
Allen (of the Allen screw) invented a cold heading machine to make his socket head screws. They were first introduced in 1910 so it's clear the technology was there quite early on.
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That's an excellent idea. I like the idea of testing all the components before they are locked in place,
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I expect your brake drums are attached to the rear hubs. If so, when you peen the hub bolts you make it impossible to remove the drums if they need to be ground. I'd use bolts with split pins there, just in case they do have to come apart at some point.
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Your observations are very valid. It's mistake to think that the "grades" imply that one bolt is better than another. The fact is that different applications call for different solutions and presuming a hard bolt, much harder and probably a good deal more brittle than the original, is in improvement is dangerous. There is a lot of "seat of the pants" engineering going on with enthusiasts much of which has no rational basis. Always presume that the original designers actually know what they were doing. Anyone who thinks that mechanical engineering was in the stone age in 1910 needs to read some of the period engineering manuals...if you can do the math they demand. (I can't...but I can tell when I'm reading something way above my pay grade.)
Do I make changes?...yes I do but I am very careful about doing it and it's usually choosing a material that is close to the original and slightly stronger. If you want period engineering specs, find an early copy of the SAE handbook. The first was in 1926 (I think) but the specs cited in it go back to at least 1910 and the technical committee of the ALAM.
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Walter Chrysler relates that when he first went to work for Buick they were painting the chassis with the same care as the body. He put a stop to that since, as he commented, the paint would be covered with mud and dirt shortly enough.
Many years ago I attended the Dusters meet at Lars Anderson Park in Brookline, Mass. Present were two fabulous unrestored cars, a Stevens Duryea of about 1910-1911 and a 1911 Locomobile 48. Both were in original paint and upholstery...frayed and dusty but tremendously impressive. The Stevens had a red chassis with yellow pinstriping. It was much wider than we think of pinstripes today and it was nowhere near as perfectly applied. It rather looked like the apprentices did it and Stevens was a very high end car. Today, on a "restoration" it would be laughed off the field.
This was well before the advent and popularity of trailers. Both of these cars drove to the meet and drove home afterward.
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11 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:
Machining a bolt from round or hex stock will generally produce a bolt with less strength than a commercial bolt. Bolts are made by "heading" a piece of stock by a forging process, either hot or cold, which makes the grain in the metal flow as the head is formed, increasing the strength.
Heading does produce a superior bolt but I think that in 1913, when Jeff's car was built, they were machining them in screw machines from round stock and then milling the hex.
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I don't know if what we know as black oxide was around then. I've looked into bluing which was common in the firearms industry and can give a blue/black finish. In gun work the metal is highly polished first. For automotive work I'd dispense with that. Nickel plating goes back to at least the 1870s and H.P. Maxim had many of the parts of his first motorized vehicle plated in 1897 so it's been around from the beginning.
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3 hours ago, Gary_Ash said:
But doesn’t that undo the heat treatment given to Grade 5 and Grade 8 bolts to strengthen them? If they are heated to cherry red, they are at about 1500 °F, enough to anneal them. Then, alloy or high carbon steels would get hard but brittle when dropped in the oil unless re-tempered. For mild (low carbon) steel used in Grade 2 bolts, this isn't a problem as they don't harden when quenched. Choose carefully.
And...where brass cars are concerned I've never run into a heat treated bolt. They are nearly always soft and I say "nearly" because I hold out the chance that some, for some special purpose, may not have been.
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I'll play devil's advocate here. I see no point in grinding off grade markings. The heads of modern bolts are so different from those in use in 1913 that you can tell at a glance if they are modern whether they are marked or not. Personally, I just make whatever bolts will show but I understand this isn't something everyone can do...but Luv2wrench can. It's tedious but once you have done it a few times it isn't hard and the results are much more satisfying. I suspect it's done because it's about the only thing most people can do.
Lock washers were always used in period...or at least every untampered with car I've worked on had them. Where they are missing it's because someone had it apart and didn't replace them. I would use new lock washers. They do occasionally break and the risk is much higher when reusing old ones.
I do polish off the zinc plating. That's just there to keep the bolts or screws from rusting in the box.
I never peen the end of a bolt to lock something in place. That was done because it was never presumed the part would be disassembled. The very fact that the question arises means it isn't relevant to what we are doing. It was also the cheap way...and lots of car makers chose cheap over good. I'd either use lock washers and Locktite or, if space allows, castellated nuts and split pins. That is an equally "period" method but one that was obviously more expensive to do.
I also never used tapered pins unless I'm making a part that is not intended to be broken down. This is usually where I'm replacing a casting or forging with machined parts and it's easier to make them in separate pieces. If they were originally one part they are useful. If there is any chance they may have to be taken out they are a major PIA.
When restoring...or rehabilitating (which is probably a more accurate word) very early cars we have to ask ourselves if we actually want a working machine or not. Many times is simply isn't possible or practical to replicate the part as it was originally made. The best we can do is make a new part that blends in with the machine and isn't jarring to see. This is very different from bringing back common prewar cars...or virtually any post war car. The same criteria simply cannot be applied unless we want a static display rather than a working machine.
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Yes...I have a Snap On breaker bar in that size. My understanding is that they were made for the military in a size that would minimize how many tools "walked" away.
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Is there any way to search inside a thread? My own thread now has 96 pages so finding a particular picture is extremely time consuming even when I know it's there.
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You might also consider free entry for pre-war cars. The simple fact is that local shows have become the gathering place for late models, hot rods and resto-mods. As someone who has no interest in those I wouldn't bother to take an early car...but those are the cars that, more often than not, excite real interest in the spectators. I've completely lost interest in local shows for that reason and I am certain other owners of earlier cars feel much the same.
I have no idea what the demographics are in your part of Texas but here in New England there are still many early cars that rarely see the light of day, partly because the owners are simply not interested in being lumped in with the muscle cars and hot rods. As Christech above points out, at the least separate the cars by era so that if any pre-war cars do show up they can be grouped together.
If space is limited it may be impossible to break parking down into narrowly-defined eras but at least separate the original cars from the modified ones and assign a small area to the earlier cars.
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I like the basic idea ... to encourage community involvement but making it work so that everyone understands that anyone could win might be a challenge. Anything that implies that one car is "better" than the others is likely to generate hard feelings. If awards are deemed necessary, I would stick to those that can't be challenged on the basis of the car itself.
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3 hours ago, John348 said:
I would avoid peer judging or drivers voting for the best car, or otherwise known as the person with the most friends wins. I would avoid that at all costs. Why not have the the Mayor (if your town has one) or Police Chief or some other local celebrity make a choice? Or even a representative of the charity? This way nobody can really complain. You could even call it the Mayors Trophy
Some time ago a member of this forum related a story of a show that did just that. The Mayor asked his secretary to pick the winner...she picked one of those VW/Mercedes/Gazelle contraptions which made virtually everyone furious.
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I think both John S and Walt G have made some very good suggestions. Judging at a local show is simply impossible. I've been in old cars for 40 years and I wouldn't dream of trying to judge anything from the late 30s on and not many of the cars earlier than that. If you must give awards, make them the sort of thing that no one can argue with...like longest distance driven, oldest car etc.
Dash plaques...I have an envelope full of them. I never look at them and the only reason I save them is because the artist that did them was an old friend. I've never attached one to the dash and won't.
Music...if you must have it, make it soft and put it over in a corner where the folks that don't care for it can ignore it. If it's so loud you have to shout to be heard by the guy next to you it's nothing but a detriment. I've literally driven by local shows with loud music including one held last week literally within walking distance of my house.
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My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project
in Our Cars & Restoration Projects
Posted
Thank you Gary. I an using a mac, running 10.11.6. That is the newest is that will run the software I use for book design.