1935 Super Eight Vacuum brakes

[PeterPackard]

Hi all, I am still new to this forum but there are some very clever people out there, and i hope that you may be able to help me. I have a 1935, 1205 Super Eight with Vacuum brakes and the pedal application pressure has been getting progressively harder to achieve the same retardation. I have adjusted the linings and cables as per the factory instructions, although i should add that i may have mis-interpreted these. The brakes are still terrific but my wife (all 120lbs) cannot push the pedal without a two minute "I can do this" session. My vehicle is Right Hand Drive and the brakes and clutch still operate LHD via cross shafts. The standard adjustment books refer to an internal valve set-up for the vacuum brake system, whereas my system appears to be very Buick and has an external control valve, in which the power activation occurs only when the pedal is progressing downwards. I have eliminated most of the travel in my brake system so am i doing the wrong thing?. Should I allow some slack in the system so that the brake pedal has to move further and activate the control valve for longer? Any advice would be appreciated. Peter Packard

[Packard enthus.]

When properly set up, the vacuum assist in all Senior Packards with mechanical brakes will give near-effortless breaking, especially when on the "hi assit" ( Number 4 ) position.

I would start by checking the brake shoe "eccentric" clearances - this is spelled out for you in ANY Packard service manual that covers the vacuum assit brakes for any of the years that Packard had mechanical brakes in its "big" cars (as a side note, proper "eccentric" clearance is VERY important for ALL "big" Packards).

With the brake shoe clearances correctly set, and if you STILL do not have effortless braking, I would start with a full vacuum check of the entire vacuum assist system. What about the "flapper valve" on the intake manifold? Is it sealing off, so the system is getting full vacuum? Any leaks anywhere in the system?

What about the piston in the vacuum assist mechanism itself? These are getting on in years. One of the Packard club magazines has a nice article on how to over-haul the piston. As a "temporary fix" try pumping a few ounces rubber lube or Armoal into the vacuum system intake ()look for a little thing that looks like a "chinamen's hat" - that will be the air intake filter for the vacuum system) when the system is running ( dont get carried away - that stuff will get ingested into your engine, so again, dont get carried away).

[PeterPackard]

Hi 6686L, Thanks for your interest. I have attached a vacuum gauge to one of the connections at the block above the Starter and the system holds at 22 inches. When the brakes are applied the vacuum falls instantaneously to 14 inches, then slowly rises to 22 inches again as the pedal stops. I looked at my friends 36 Standard Eight, which has good brakes and his system is very "relaxed" compared to mine. The previous owner of my 35 Super has removed almost all travel so that there is barely an inch of pedal travel. He even tensioned up the cable between the booster and the linkage. I shall "relax" the cables as per my friends car and see what happens. The eccentric adjustment seems to be ok with a 0.010 clearance at each end of the top shoe but i shall check them again. I am not sure about your mention of the "hi-assist" position, or the ability to adjust to a number 4 position. I have seen it mentioned on the adjustment for the 37-39 twelve but I am convinced I the export cars have different system fitted which incorporates an external actuation valve. I don't have much info on the Vacuum assist side of the brakes. The manuals concentrate on the manual brakes. I shall "relax" my system and let you know how it goes. Thanks from Down Under. Peter Toet

[Packard enthus.]

My apologies - I gave you the wrong information - the '35 and '36 power brake equipped Packards did NOT have a dash control to adjust the amount of "boost" like the '34 did. Incidentally, neither did the '37 - '39 (hydraulic brake equipped) V-12's have the earlier variable selector either.

Yes- you must have some "slack" for the system to work - your pedal will NOT be as "high" where braking action begins, as would be the case of the "Junior" Packards of that year that had hydraulic brakes.

The vacuum drop you refer to sounds like your vacuum piston is in reasonably good shape. Again, inject some Armarol or leather softner into the vacuum piston, just a little, if for nothing else, to keep the piston diagphragm soft.

Remember the old saying " when all else fails....read the directions..." Seriously, the shop manuals of thsoe years have a pretty good step-by-step description of how to set up the brake shoes proparly.

There is one problem area they did not have to face - the change in "co-efficient of friction" of most brake shoe material available to us today. The problem is the danger of asbestos dust, and the change-over to various kinds of non-asbestos brake materials.

I never cease to be amazed, when I do a brake job on one of my modern cars, how much difference there can be, even in the same manufacturer's materials, in "braking action". Obviously, SOME of the new "hard" linings do not give you the kind of "grab" you'd like - others do.

It's a "hit or miss" deal on brake linings - last time I relined the brakes on my '38 V-12, only lining I could get was one of the more modern non-asbestos ones - nowhere NEAR as "grabby" as I'd like - so that even with the power brake assist working the way it should, my pedal pressure is significantly higher than it was with the asbestos linings.

Just out of idle curiosity, do you have a little "road tramp/shimmy" if you hit a bump just right between, oh..say roughly 35 mph and 40 mph ? If you do, dont feel like the Long Ranger - to dampen that out you need GOOD shocks, NO "slop" in ANY of the steering linkages, and THEN you will still have to "play" with changing toe-in and toe-out (dont get carried away or you will get wierd tire wear and an odd road feel) until you get that shimmy dampened out.

[Guest Randy Berger]

I wouldn't put Armorall on anything - particularly anything to do with my braking system. If there is a leather seal in a vacuum chamber you could put some vacuum oil on it to soften and lubricate it. McMaster-Carr carries it I believe.

[Packard enthus.]

Randy - relax - perhaps you mis-understood the application ?

The Armorall (or any other kind of "mouse milk" that would serve as a softner/lubricant, isnt going anywhere NEAR this guy's hydraulic brake system - for the simple reason he DOSNT HAVE ANY !

That era "Senior" Packard has "rope" (meaning CABLE brakes). Yes I would agree with you, I sure as hell wouldn't use that stuff on ANY part of a "juice" (again, slang)...hydraulic brake system. He wont hurt his leather piston with anything that is o.k. for use on fabrics - about the only thing I WOULDNT use would be any mineral oil based lubricant whose solvents might start dissolving the leather piston seal.

[Guest Randy Berger]

I didn't misunderstand anything, and that's a condescending remark. Furthermore I was replying to the original poster of the thread. I'll stand by my statement. I wouldn't use Armorall on any part of my vehicle. It is a contaminant, whether on a vacuum cylinder or leather seats or rubber window gaskets.

[PeterPackard]

Hi 6686L The points raised by you: Linings: The 35 Super is very low mileage and to my knowledge has 29,000 genuine miles. I doubt that the brakes have been relined in it's lifetime. The brakes have plenty of bite and easily meet the Tapely meter brake requirements for our road registration system.

Leather conditioner /armorall for the booster: I shall look up the recommendations for the booster as i have had a few bad experiences introducing conditioning agents into things such as vacuum wiper motors.

The 35 has an almost immaculate and totally original interior. The front leather seat is in good shape except for a tear in the upper drivers side, unlike my 1927 533, which still has most of the original leather fairly hardened. I have used some automotive leather conditioner on it. It was reasonable expensive and has a dreadful smell but it appears to be ok. I use armorall on rubber components but am a bit cautious about using it on anything that isn't plastic or rubber.

Road tramp/shimmy: I am running Michelin 7.50 X17 RCA Radials (because they were on the car when i purchased it), and I am astounded at the roadholding ability of this car. It has no rattles/squeaks/road tramp/ shimmy whatsoever, is soooo quiet, and is great to drive. I have a 38 Super with Nylon (Goodrich 8.25 X 16) and it just about squeals when cornering on gravel. The 38 Super is much lighter in the steering and brakes but the 35 Super is just as good on the hills(now that i have fitted an original fuel/vac pump set-up) Please send me a pic of your 38 Twelve, i have looked at one over here but it is the same body as my 38 Super and it was excessively overpriced. Keeep in touch and thanks for the interest. Peter Toet

[PeterPackard]

Hi Randy, Thanks for the reply, I am very cautious about the use of "modern" preservation products, many of which were invented after the materials which were used in the manufacture of our vehicles were superseded. I have a contact in our War Museum and I contact him about the problem, although it is usually him who contacts me. I note your comments on Armorall and shall try to find an item which is recommended for use with Leather pump seals. i have some of those in my later model Hydrovac Brake systems. Thanks for your interest Peter Toet

[Guest 1956Packard]

I side with Randy on the Armorall issue.

Do a web search. A lot of the comments are anecdotal some are less so. All have been said for many years. This stuff is best left on the shelf at the store.

Geoff

[Owen_Dyneto]

I agree with Mr. Berger about Armoral. Its water-based and intended to form a dry glossy film and would be harmful to the leather seal in the vacuum cylinder. I've used commercial vacuum oil from time to time in my 34 Packard power brake cylinder and its been working fine for 40+ years. Usual dose is about 1 tablespoon every 20 years. Also the original diaphram in the actuating valve was made of coated paper; its amazing these last as long as they do, but replacements are available in neoprene. The 35 models don't have the "brake selector" system to allow various levels of power boost, but that diaphram, also paper originally, is also available. When these Bragg-Kliesrath (later Bendix) booster systems are working OK and the brake adjustments are done per the manual, these cars have just terrific brake systems, as others have pointed out.

[Packard enthus.]

I dont know how to send pictures ! Of COURSE your '38 Super Eight steers a bit lighter than your '35 Super Eight ! Do you know why ?

Packard pulled a "fast one" on its customers by de-rating its entire eight cyl. line. They dropped the REAL "Super Eight" ( the 384 cu. in. torque-monster you have in your '35). The reason - the 384 cu in eight was too long for practical use with the "independant" front suspension introduced on the "big" or "Senior" cars for 1937 production.

So they called the "Standard Eight" - a 320 cu in. motor, the "Super Eight" for 1937-39 production. Then they called the "baby" Packard Eight - the Packard "120"...around 280 cu. in....a "Packard Eight".

The Packard "Super Eight" of 1937-1939 was, being a Packard, a pretty good car for the money. I believ you could have ordere the '39 Super Eight with overdrive. The problem with the Packard Standard Eight that you have in your 1938 "Super Eight", is that it was by then quite out-of-date - it was pretty much identical to what was introduced in the mid 1920's to take the place of the "small-engined" Packard six.

I am puzzled why you have 8:25 x 16 tires on that '38 Super Eight. It SHOULD have the smaller 7:50 x 16 size. The after-market 8:25 x 16 tires are only available in bias cord - for some odd reason, they make the cars handle horribly. I pulled the front suspension apart on my '38 12 twice, looking for something very wrong and/or very loose, before I finally realized it was the TIRES and not the car. On top of that, they are notorious for blowing out at anything over sustained modest speeds, owing to internal friction. Why they cant make a modern "repro" bias tire that gives the same handling as the REAL bias tires we had in the old days - I have no clue.

A few years ago I installed a set of 7:50 x 16 radial white walls (whose dimensions are a bit less than the original 8:25 x 16 but have MUCH superior load capacity). Now I have the handling, cornering, and high-speed reliability Packard owners have a RIGHT to demand from their vehicles. I suggest you consider selling off those 8:25 x 16's to some guy who is of the "trailer-queen car show" type, and get a set of 7:50 radials. You will REALLY love the way that thing handles then !

Sounds like you have a real "original cream puff" - would love to see some detailed photos!

[bernardi]

Re: Asbestos brake lining -- Last summer I had shoes on a 1953 auto (non-Packard) relined. I was quite surprised when the shop owner told me that he relined them with asbestos. They may have been old stock, but they look good and stop quickly. If you are really interested in using asbestos, I can inquire if he has linings to fit your shoes. The shop is in Pittsburgh, PA.

[Guest 55_Clipper]

Peter,

I am buy no means an expert on Packards, however, I had a thought.... If you want to condition the leather seal, would a little bit of Mink Oil work??? It has always kept my leather boots soft and pliable, and water proof too..... <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[PeterPackard]

Hi 6686L Thanks for your response. I'm not too sure about your reasoning that Packard pulled a fast one, for the dropping of the 384 as there isn't much difference in length and maybe a few hundred pounds in weight, same as when Mercedes Benz went from the 6.9litre to the 5.60litre as it's top engine (in my opinion). I have read a lot about Packards since i got hooked in 1965 and I believe that Packard was under pressure to modernise in the late thirties. They were getting good sales results with the 120, 1938 was a mini depression in the US, so why not put the reliable but expensive to produce 320 cu inch into a lighter 120 style, while Packard sorted out the replacement cast block/crankcase 356 engine. I have just completed a 1938 120 ( T.J. Richards body) with a 1953 mayfair 327 and R6 overdrive and it has just so much mumbo.

I have the 8.25 X 16 tyres on the rear as ALL of the late 30's sent to Australia had "stump pulling" 4.69 rear axles. i just wanted to take a few hundred revs off the motor at 60 mph. The 35 Super has a 4.41 rear end whilst i have fitted a 4.38 from a Sports Tourer to my 533. my 37 Super was from Battle Creek in the US and has the 4.69 "stump puller". rear axle.

i would love to try the radial tyres on my other cars, perhaps on my 56 Patrician after i do my fifth strip of the twin -Ultra. Peter Fitch has been very supportive on that project. I have tried to send you a few snaps of my vehicles but your email is giving a server error. Sorry. Best regards Peter Toet

[PeterPackard]

Hi Benardi, Thanks for the response. I am ok with asbestos linings but there are some real problems now with transporting them as they are classified as dangerous goods. ( in Australia anyway ) I shall keep you in mind as there is little doubt that they work better than modern materials. i understand that my 35 Super has the original linngs anyway. Best regards Peter Toet

[PeterPackard]

Hi 55 Clipper, thanks for your interest. I am not familiar with Mink Oil but i would imagine that it is an airconditioner compressor type oil. Does it have a Mobil, Shell etc number. I still have to chase up the Vacuum oil number suggested earlier. Best Regards Peter Toet

[Packard enthus.]

I DID get your pictures ! Can you "post" them in here so that everyone can be as jealous as I am, at how marvelous your Packards are ? But you do need to make some repairs quickly - your steering wheels are all on the wrong side.....!

[Packard enthus.]

As I noted above, I did get the photos from our friend "down under"; my question is a bit off-point for this particular "thread" - I hope I will be forgiven for having my curiosity piqued...!

The '38 "Super" Eight is obviously a Formal Sedan - or at least, appears to be in the photo. That would be body model 1112. The bodies on the formal sedans for the "Senior" cars were IDENTICAL, meaning, EVERY single body part (with the exception of upholstery trim) is the same for the Super Eight Style 1112 and the Twelve 1132. (of course NO parts on the chassis are the same - virtually everything on the Twelve's chassis, brakes, suspension, etc, are entirely different and heavier, but that is another story)

But look at the Australian Super Eight. Its back window is NOT the "stock" small window typical of Packard "senior" formal sedan back windows that were identical from 1935 to the end of "Senior" production in 1939.

Our Austrilain friend's formal sedan has what appears to be much larger "stock" window that would be found in any of the other sedan or limo body styles.

Bet there is an interesting story there...! Looks like the Packard factory had a few "tricks" up its sleeve that even I didnt know about...! (either that, or someone at some point in time took a Body Style 1103 and "custom made" a formal sedan out of it.. ? ? ? ? ? )

I am also curious about Australia's laws about "right-hand drive". Packard offered a right-hand drive conversion kit for its eight cylinder cars from its earliest days, down thru the end of "real" Packard production. But I am NOT aware of any right-hand drive parts for Twelves - in fact, unless they had come up with a complete manifold/exhaust conversion, I dont see how this could be done. What's the story on that...are there any Packard V-12's in Australia ? If so - did they get an exemption, or did the owners come up with some kind of cobbled/after-market way of steering from the right side of the car...

? ? ? ?

[PeterPackard]

Hi , There are about a dozen Packard twin -sixes and twelves in Australia, that I am aware of. The earlier (say 1917) are RHD while the later twelves are all LHD. The Supers have RHD conversions but still operate the clutch and brake from the Left side with cross shafts. It would be extremeny difficult to properly convert a twelve to RHD and I am surprised that they went to the trouble of converting Supers to RHD as so few of them came out here. Our current laws are that if the vehicle is being registered as a Veteran, Vintage or Historic, then it can remain LHD. There is a niche industry in Australia which does conversions on LHD vehicles intended for full registration. These conversions usually cost about $5,000.

Vacuum Brakes; I shall adjust the cables etc this weekend and let you know the results.

I shall try to post a pic of the Australian bodied Packards, although it might be better to start a new topic. Peter Toet

[Owen_Dyneto]

Packard offered RHD cars right to the end, though the V8 models for the UK were converted there by the dealer, Leonard Williams. Following the closing of the Canadian plant (in 1939 I believe,which was significantly but NOT totally dedicated to making RHD cars), Detroit produced RHD cars thru 1954, the 48-54 parts book detailing some of the parts required.

[Guest 55_Clipper]

Mink Oil can be found in just about any shoe store. It comes in two forms, liquid and paste. I would think that the liquid would more suitable to this application. It is made by KIWI

[PeterPackard]

Hi 55 Clipper, I shall try for the Mink oil. Kiwi is a very well known brand of polishes and preservatives. I shall let you know how i get on . Peter Toet

[flackmaster]

I'm gonna jump in on the sideline here and comment on what a very very very late RHD 1954 Patrician I saw being driven in Australia by a certain small (probably 120 lbs or so) woman in Australia last year. Looked like a '56 to me, and it definitely had working power brakes! Last seen leaving a trail of transmission fluid drops.....better get on the trail of that one, Peter.

[Guest 55_Clipper]

Peter,

One word of caution on the mink oil, make sure it is 100% Mink Oil, not a synthetic blend( a noble end for a member of the rat family). Randy, if I am way out in left field, jump in and let me know. I was just thinking that if a vacuum brake system has no fluids, and a genuine leather seal is a critical componet, then Mink oil should work. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Guest Randy Berger]

I'm not familiar with mink oil and therefore have no opinion positive or negative. Vacuum oil is made to lube the leather seals in a vacuum chamber and so I have a positive opinion of it.

[Guest 55_Clipper]

Mink oil is a common weather proofing agent for leather shoes. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[PeterPackard]

Hi Randy, Re Vacuum oil. Do you have a part number or manufacturer reference for Vacuum oil? i shall try to obtain some locally.

I adjusted the cables on the 35 Super yesterday, as per the Shop manual, including the equalising adjustment, where the brakes are slightly applied and the tightest three wheels linings backed off, until each wheel has the same resistance as the lowest resistance wheel. The cables are now very much relaxed and the system works much better. I discovered that I was probably using the cables to adjust the brakes instead of the adjuster inside the drum. There is slightly more movement in the pedal but the booster assistance has probably doubled. I shall let the Forum know how i get on with the Vacuum oil, and find out a bit more about the Mink Oil. I may not be good for Packard Vacuum brakes but it should be good for my boots.

[Packard enthus.]

Are you sure you followed the correct method for adjusting the 1930's era Packard "Senior" series vacuum assist brakes?

I am going to SPELL IT OUT so that there will be no confusion. I am not sure, by his post, that our Aussie friend LISTENED to my instructions to check the service manual AND actually carried them out "to the letter"...!

1) if it has MECHANICAL (lever and cable) brakes, (meaning 1936 and earlier) DISCONNECT each cable at the adjusting turn-buckle. Make certain the cables all move in and out with minimum friction "drag". This is VITAL. If there is ANY significant friction that prevents the cables from moving in and out, FIND OUT WHY! Perhaps it just needs an injection of - oh - I think gun oil or sewing machine oil would be just about right, because they are formulated not t0o "gum up"). If the car is a '37 - '39, (meaning hydraulic brakes) go to step two.

2) Our Aussie friend apparently DID follow my instruction about READING the service manual, and carrying out the "eccentric pin" adjustment. The rest of you - this is VITAL to do before trying a brake-shoe adjustment with the "star wheel".

3) Now - for the CORRECT proceedure to adjust the shoes with the star-wheel. Jack up the wheel you are going to adjust, and make sure it turns freely, by 1) making sure the bearings arent tight and 2) back off the star adjustor till there is NO lining drag. PULL the drum and put a TRACE of gun oil where the shoe slides against the backing plate, so that there is no induced friction there. Make sure the threads on the star adjustor are CLEAN and OILED.

4) With the drums back on, spin the wheel by hand, as you gradually tighten up on the star adjustor (with your brake-star wheel adjusting tool inserted into the slot (these "star-wheel adjusting" tools are generic - can be bought nearly anywhere auto parts are sold) you lift UP on the tool to TIGHTEN the brake lining against the drum. Keep tightening until you feel SIGNIFICANT "drag" against your turning the tire by hand. When you have SIGNIFICANT "drag" (not just the beginnings of "drag" from a possibly slightly out of round drum and/or "shoe" that is a bit off ) START BACKING OFF on th star wheel TEN 'CLICKS' ! (you will "feel" the little "clicks" as each "nub" on the star wheel slides momentarily up against the lower shoe spring - that is why you want FRESHLY OILED threads on the star adjustor, so you can feel this.

5) With the brakes now properly adjusted, let's check the vacuum assist mechanism. Do you have good and steady vacuum at the cylinder ? There is (should be - some production didnt have it) a 1/4 in. plug for you to insert a vacuum guage in. If there are any "leak downs" in the system, you'll find it that way.). Re-connect the brake cables if a mechanical brake car - they should be a TRACE "saggy loose", so that, unlike a HYDRAULIC braked car, you dont get a "hard" pedal until you are about, oh...I'd say about half way down - maybe a trace more.

NOW hook everything up, and tell me how those brakes feel...!

3)