1990 Reatta cold start stalling

[Guest]

Our 1990 Reatta starts and runs perfectly. On cold starts, it starts fine and the engine idles up just as it should. Then almost immediately it starts to idle down and run rough. Most of the time it won't stall...as long as you don't put it right in gear. After just 20 - 30 seconds warm up the problem is gone and you can put it in gear and drive away. All other driving parameters and performance is normal. Any help will be appreciated.

[Rick Villeza]

Some solutions are very simple and therefore lose credibility. Your problem is water in the fuel. Use a water displacing additive or next fill-up use Chevron w/techron.<P>Your headlight motors need replacement or, if you are mechanically inclined, your headlight motor gearbox need to be rebuilt. Previous posts on this Discussion address this process (part #s, etc.).

[Reatta Man]

Ted, <P>If you are experiencing stalling, your ignition module is likely in the early stages of failing. I'm going to list more fixes here than you may actually need now, but I recommend you do them all as soon as you have the time. <P>1. PROBLEM: Carbon builds up in the air intake of the throttle body. <BR>SOLUTION: Clean the throttle body air intake. Take the accordian-shaped air hose off of the air box and the throttle body assembly. With the engine running, spray some carburetor cleaner in the honeycomb-shaped screen. I recommend Berryman's B-12 or one of the better spray cleaners. Avoid the cheaper ones. As soon as you star spraying, it will try to stall, so keep the engine running by reving the engine high enough to keep it from stalling. Do this for about 45-90 seconds. <P>2. RPOBLEM: Ignition module breaks down, especially during cool, damp conditions, such as after being parked overnight.<BR>SOLUTION: Replace coil pack and ignition module. (I HIGHLY recommend replacing the spark plug wires and plugs at the same time.)The ignition module on ALL late 80's-early 90's 3.8 L engines were junk and prone to premature failure. Mark the spark plug wires with a felt tip pen and remove them. Remove the screws holding the black coil pack. Remove the wires inside the coil pack. Remove the screws holding on the aluminum ignition module, and remove the bolt holding the wiring harness to the coil pack. Look at the silicone gel inside the module. If you see cracks, discoloration in the gel, or what appears to be air bubbles in the gel, it must be replaced. Get a new coil pack and ignition module and reverse the assembly. <P>If this doesn't cure your cold-start problems, let me know and I will offer some other suggestions. However, your problem definitely sounds like an electrical breakdown in the ignition circuit. <P>Good luck!

[Guest]

Thanks for the info provided so far. I'm not convinced it's water in the fuel system. But, for as cheap a fix as that could be, I'll try it first. My experience with water has been that since it's heavier than the fuel and on the tank bottom...you start with problems, drive with problems, and shut it off with problems....it never goes away until the water is gone. Some of the other fixes are coming back to memory from my '87 T-Type Turbo Regal days. It sounds all to familiar!!! Thanks again.

[Rick Villeza]

"Water in the fuel" will cause intermittent problems. When water has accumulated in the fuel filter or in the fuel line it will be most apparent at low idle; combustion will seem balanced at high rpm's. Also, motion will emulsify the water and fuel thereby lessening symptoms. These are the symptoms which you described.<BR>Secondary ignition problems (coil, spark plugs, spark plug wires) will be apparent under load (acceleration, up hill) and will be relatively consistent (under load). You've described that your car runs "perfectly" after you "put it in gear".<P>In diagnosing a "leaking" secondary (damaged insulation), leakage can be seen especially when encouraged with a grounding wand. My favorite technique is to spray the secondary components with a mist of water in the dark while the engine is running.<BR>A "weak" secondary can be diagnosed by alternately removing the plug wires. The spark emitted by the wireless terminal should "jump" to the nearest securing fastener (philips screws used to secure coil housing).

[Guest]

Thanks Rick for water issue clarification. You're right, and as I said earlier, I will try this first. I've used the "watching at night" technique many times with great success. It's almost the same procedure we used in the 60s on old C-47s with the high tension ignition systems!!! Worked then...it'll work now. Thanks again.

[Guest]

I wonder if spraying carb cleaner into the MAF sensor is a good idea. I'm just not sure if the sensor in the small passage can be damaged by the chemicals in carb. cleaner. Most of the modern sprays are so mild they don't do the job they once did, but you really need to spray into the idle air passage, at the lower rear of the throttle body.<P>------------------<BR>Hal, btk@vbe.com

[Reatta Man]

Folks,<P>I'm sorry to see so many of you going off in different areas to find the problem, instead of trying the things I recommended to you based upon my lessons learned, often the hard way. <P>The solutions I recommended were either based upon my mistakes and lessons learned the hard way or were given to me by the owner of one of the most sucessful independent garages in San Antonio. Steve Gehrlein operates Cambridge Automotive and has hosted a radio call-in show on KTSA AM in San Antonio for about seven years. I've used his suggestions to rebuild a blown engine on an '85 Riv convertible and take a totally dead '90 Reatta coupe back to running like new.<P>As for the spark plug night test, that is fine unless the breakdown is within the wires, and the grounding is done directly between the wire and one of the many metal parts that touch the wires. If there is no air gap, you won't see the spark. In addition, today's ignition systems run a much higher spark voltage, so spark plug wire replacement should be done every 30K miles, 50K at the most. In other words, the wires could be breaking down and NOT be visible to the eye. As for affecting the driveability of the car under load, if the breakdown is temperature and humidity related, this will not be noticable on a hot engine with the humidity near zero in a warm engine compartment. <P>As for spraying cleaner into the air intake, I've done that to all my cars as regular maintenance, after I made an '87 Ford Bronco II run like new. Everything else in the ignition and fuel system was new or in top condition, and, once again, that was recommended to me by Steve Gehrlein, and it worked in less than 15 minutes. <BR>I've never had a MAP, MAF, ICS or TPS failure using this proceedure. I've used it on Fords, Buicks, Chevrolets and Chryslers. <BR> <BR>If you want to ask Steve yourself, you may listen to his show on Saturdays from 10:00 a.m to 1:00 p.m. or Sundays from 2-4:00 p.m. Central Time by going to <A HREF="http://www.ktsa.com." TARGET=_blank>www.ktsa.com.</A> You will need a sound card in your computer and a set of speakers. If you live in Texas, the station has an 800 number you can use. While listening to him, you may e-mail him your questions. <P>Just tell him Joe Wiggins referred you to him. I've known Steve and used his advice for over six years.

[Rick Villeza]

Reatta Man,<BR>Your comments and opinions are very welcome and appreciated. If I post a problem here I would hope to get a response from you as well as Barney, Brenda, Wally, Prakash, etc. It is this preponderance of opinions and sharing of experiences which makes this Discussion viable.

[Guest]

Wow, lots of response to my problem!! I,m going to try all that has been suggested and try to use that hard gained experience. If they don't work, I'll report back and we'll try something else. Thanks again and I agree that it's the participation and the different opinions and discussions that make it all work.

[Guest]

Reatta Man, are you the same Joe Wiggins from the GN list? I would think the carb spray method would be even more effective if you idled the engine up using the overide to open the idle air control. The EGR dumps into the intake right in the same area and it is the first area to carbon up.<P>------------------<BR>Hal, btk@vbe.com

[Reatta Man]

2seater,<P>I don't remember joining the GN list and I've never had one. I used to post to this forum under the name PAman, but the system burped or something and wouldn't recognize my user name and password.<P>I think your suggestion is a good one. I've always wondered how the throttle body opening got so much carbon in it. Anyway, however it gets in there, carbone build up is poison to anything as precise as a fuel injection sysem. <P>Joe

[Guest]

Reatta Man, mistaken identity I guess(or my memory). It's hard to believe how black the inside of the intake gets. It's a combination of the EGR and vapors from open valves when the engine is stopped hot. The vapors condense on the inside of the cooler manifold.<P>------------------<BR>Hal, btk@vbe.com

[Guest]

Thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions.....and one of them cured my cold start stalling problem....in fact it cured several other problem also. First I tried some gas additive to absorb any water (if present). Second, I used a can of Berryman's throttle body/carb spray in the throttle body intake. Third, I removed and cleaned a very filthy Idle air Control Valve and reinstalled it. The car idles perfect now!!! Sinc I did all three at the same time, I don't know which was the cure but I suspect the IAC as it was absolutely filthy!!! It also cured all of the hunting and surging when coasting to a stop. Just like a new car again....all for $.72 for the gas teratment and $1.79 for the carb spray. Thanks again.

[Rick Villeza]

Now that's TEAMWORK!!!