Guest Packardguy Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 On 48 and 49 Super 8s including convertibles do the 327 engines look identical? Meaning everything is in same place on each one like carb, oil bath cleaner, etc. Also, was the 48 green and the 49 gray as far as the blocks go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Randy Berger Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 My friend's 1950 Packard has the 288 engine painted "awful green". I don't think anyone has nailed down the engine color for 48-50. Maybe it indicated made in Canada - no one seems to have a definitive answer between green and gray.YFAM, Randy Berger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 From the outside all 48-54's are the same except for the water pumps on the 48-50's? which have a slightly different mounting as well as the front engine mount which is also different. There is also a difference between the 5 and the 9 mains engines, you can check this from the serial #'s or by the number of plugs in the right side of the engine block just above the oil pan, 9 mains have 9 plugs and the 5 mains have only 5 plugs. according to the flat rate manual as well, you can install a later motor (51-54) into the early cars with an adapter, not sure what this consist of though, more then likely the front engine mount and the stabilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bkazmer Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 I'll hardly call this definitive, but I have seen both gray and Packard green on known original 22nd and 23rd, and it didn't seem to correspond to the series break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 I'd call the repainted-from-original color on my 1950 a green with a hint of grayish if that makes sense. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 It sounds like it would be best to choose one of the two colors that more closely matches the color of the car or maybe the interior. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I would NOT do it Gray with Green Poka-dots, Tho. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> LOL <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted June 18, 2005 Share Posted June 18, 2005 I always thought the 9 main bearing 356 engine was a little bit longer in length than the other smaller displacement Packard engines of the same era. I could be wrong though. I have a 356 block in the garage and just measured the top of it and it came out to 34 and 3/4 inches in length. Why don't one of you guys with the smaller displacement engine measure yours & see what it comes out to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I always thought the 9 main bearing 356 engine was a little bit longer in length than the other smaller displacement Packard engines of the same era. I could be wrong though. I have a 356 block in the garage and just measured the top of it and it came out to 34 and 3/4 inches in length. Why don't one of you guys with the smaller displacement engine measure yours & see what it comes out to? </div></div>I believe the 288, 327, 356 & 359 are the same overall dimensions (the heads are all interchangeable). There are some differences in the waterpumps, manifolds, distributors etc that might change the dimensions slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardguy Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 If all the heads are interchangeable how do you tell what size engine you have? Are there certain numbers that I need to look for on the engine somewhere? How do I know for sure if it is a 288, 327 or 356? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I saw my friend tonight at the local cruise in who has both a 288 engine and a 356. He said the main differences in dimensions are towards the botton of the block. The timing chain covers are also different because the 356 uses a wider chain. He also thought the 356 block was taller than the smaller displacement engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardguy Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 There has to be numbers somwhere on these engines that identify what kind they are, right? Can you tell I'm impatient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There has to be numbers somwhere on these engines that identify what kind they are, right? Can you tell I'm impatient? </div></div>The Serial number will tell you the year and series. It is on the driver?s side of the block near the rear just below the head (on a raised pad). The first symbol will be a letter?.M is 1954, L is 1953, K is 1952 etc. There will be 6 digits following?.6xxxxx is a Senior Series (359cid for 1954, 327 9 main for 1951-53). 3xxxxx & 4xxxxx are Junior Series 327cid 5 mains (2bbl in the Clipper Deluxe, & 4 bbl in the Mayfair) , 2xxxxx is a 288.(The above is for entertainment purposes only & not subject to review for accuracy) <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardguy Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 What do the remaining 5 digits mean after the initial first letter symbol and #?For example M6xxxxx or G3xxxxx. Also why is one of the 327 5 mains start with a 3xxxxx and the other start with a 4xxxxx? Thanks guys for answering all my questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 My '54 Clipper has a FrankenMotor in it, a 327 with a 288 head on it. The head was easy to identify as it says 288 Thunderbolt on the top of it. The block was determined by the serial number. I was told this type of swap was popular to increase compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do the remaining 5 digits mean after the initial first letter symbol and #?For example M6xxxxx or G3xxxxx. Also why is one of the 327 5 mains start with a 3xxxxx and the other start with a 4xxxxx? Thanks guys for answering all my questions. </div></div>No particular significance that I know of?for instance a 1954 Patrician (359 cid) would have a engine number of M600001 and up. I believe the ?400? series engines were in the upper line of the Junior cars (Mayfair, Cavalier etc) with a 4bbl carb, the ?300? series engines in the Clipper deluxe with a 2 bbl, the ?200? series engines were found in the Clipper standards (288 w/ 2bbl). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 When I was looking to buy my Packard I found a 1948 limo with a 1953 327CID in place of the 288 with no real other mods. It was a straight bolt in said the owner..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 An M4xxxxxx is a 327 with hydraulic lifters a i think it came withe a 4bbl carb and was 185hp used in the Cavalier, the M3xxxxxx was the standard 327ci with mechanical lifters and a 2bbl carb and 165hp. You really have to check the parts books when it come to what parts are in what motors, my 54 288 has a completly different cam than the 327 of the same year, even the rear end in the 288ci clipper is not the same as the others, different ratio for some reason. but have found the parts book can be confusing at times. According to the parts book my Clipper Special uses the junior rims, (small bolt circle) OK, the Panama is suppose to use the same rims and not the senior's, But i have the large bolt pattern on the Panama, but the Parts book does say that the Panama can use the 11" drums (junior) or 12" from the senior which mine does have which is the same as my Patrician. I also cannot use the 9" hubcaps on these rims as the do not have a place to clip on I have to use a 15" disk to fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 You're right Albert, I had forgotten about the lifters...the "premium" 327 5-main had hyd lifters and a 4bbl, the "standard" had solids and a 2bbl like the 288. Re the rims, I think that was a running change that started late in 1954 and for all models in 1955-56. I've had several '51-'53 juniors with the larger bolt pattern. I found out the hard way when I went to get a '55 Connie from the Nevada desert. I brought a set of senior wheel & tires...you can guess the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 NO S!@#! Not once but twice I have had the problem with the rims, when i went to get the 54 Patrician in Pa, i went with the tires and rims off the Clipper, lost close to 3 hrs changing tires to the Patrician rims, then we bought the 54 Panama from Pittsburg, I checked the Parts book double checked, and again went down with the junior rims, and they again no fit! you almost have to bring 8 rims with you. The Panama i was in no mood to again play aroung with tires so i towed it as is about 400 miles and the tires that where a little bald before, looked like kojacks head when we got to Toronto due to the frame being really bent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigKev Posted June 23, 2005 Share Posted June 23, 2005 You almost have to have the person you are buying it from measure the distance from bolt center to bolt center.Cause you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardguy Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 what would 889719327 indicate and where is this # located? The man that gave me this # said he got it from the engine in his Packard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what would 889719327 indicate and where is this # located? The man that gave me this # said he got it from the engine in his Packard. </div></div>Just guessing, but I'll bet he mis-copied the first digit (should be a "3", not "8") That would be a part number found on the head. There would be a space between the first 6 digits and the last 3, with "327" being a head from a 327cid engine. Closest I can find in the parts book is: 389720 (327)That is a 7.5 C/R head for the 22nd series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardguy Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 I forgot to mention the car the engine is in is a 48 Super 8 conv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I forgot to mention the car the engine is in is a 48 Super 8 conv. </div></div>It looks like that number could be consistent with a ?48, but as mentioned, all the heads are interchangeable. See if you can get the number off the block, not the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 Get the number off the block on the drivers side just below the head towards the firewall, it tells all.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardguy Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 B.H. I'm not really sure what that means. I'm not being sarcastic I just don't really understand what you are trying to say. Is the # on the driver's side of the block towards the bottom near the firewall, a true indicator or not of what size engine you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice sleuthing, John!The casting number is often different than the number for the finished part. The head could have come in "raw" from the foundry, with one number, but a different number was assigned to the part after it was machined - to distinguish parts for inventory control purposes. </div></div>Interesting?.I?ve come across several straight 8 heads whose P/Ns don?t show up in the parts book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">B.H. I'm not really sure what that means. I'm not being sarcastic I just don't really understand what you are trying to say. Is the # on the driver's side of the block towards the bottom near the firewall, a true indicator or not of what size engine you have? </div></div>Packardguy??.scroll up about 15 posts in this thread and you will see how to find the S/N on the block. Yes, that will tell you what that block was (year, model & cid) when it left the factory. However, crankshafts & piston/bores can be changed so the only way to know for sure is to measure the bore & stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATVrider Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Still not sure what the correct answer is re: Packard eight cyl engines after the 1930's. I'm pretty sure the 1941-1947 "120" - "Clipper Delux" - and the "356" "Clipper Super/Custom" were entirely different motor castings, with the "356" being much larger and more powerful than the "120". Now here's where I remain puzzled. Sometime in the late 1940's, Packard dropped BOTH engines, and came out with the "288 / 327" series motor blocks. Is it correct that the "288-327" series are the same basic casting, but entirely new and different blocks from the above earlier eights ? Another question. What engine was in the 1950 "Custom" series (first year of Ultramatic, but last year for the "bath-tub" body). Was 1949, or was it 1950 that is last year of the 356 in the most expensive Packards? I had a 1951 "400/Patrician", which I know was a "327" Another question - the "359" was NOT the same block casting as the earlier "356" (or at least I think so). Is the '54 "359" just a bored and stroked "288 - 327" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 The 356" engine was an entirely new engine introduced in the 1940 19th series "senior" cars and is a much larger engine dimensionally than the 257-282" engine used in the 120 etc. since 1935. The 356 is quite a bit longer and of course has the 9 main bearings vs 5 in the smaller engine. The last year that the 356 was used was in the 1950 2306 Custom. The 288-327" size engines first offered in the 22nd series cars was a new engine with a bored of 3.50". The difference in engine displacement came from the stroke difference 3.75 vs. 4.13. Thus in the 22nd-23series all engines (including the 6) used the same size pistons. The 327" 9 main bearing engine first used in the 2406 1951 Patrician was based on the 288-327 5 main engine and the magnificent but heavy 356" was history. The 359" engine used in the 1954 Patrician etc. was a bored and stroked ( 3.56 X4.25 ) version of the 9 main 327". All 8 cylinder heads from 1948-54 have heads interchangeable with the 356". I am NOT a Packard expert just an avid enthusiast so if I am wrong about this I am hopeful someone more knowledgeable will correct me. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Great info Dave, thanks. I?ve read that the post-war 9 main engines also benefited from Packard?s WWII experience in aircraft & marine engine production. Mainly in better breathing due to canted valves, improved combustion chamber design and I believe the highest C/R of any production flathead. Even tho it only lived one year, the 359 9 main went thru a sort of evolution with the late production ?B? blocks and was a testament to the Packard designers. Marketing, more than performance dictated the demise of the straight 8, as they ran pretty competitively against factory sponsored Lincolns in the Mexican road races. When showroom buyers opened the hood of a ?54 Packard and saw 8 sparkplugs in a row, they just saw ?Grampa?s car?, as compared to a sexy new OHV V8 in a Caddy, Olds, Buick etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Packard 8 I will have a set of frame perches for the 51-54's as soon as i pull the motor out of a 54 Panama than has a bent frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Packard 8 I will have a set of frame perches for the 51-54's as soon as i pull the motor out of a 54 Panama than has a bent frame. </div></div>Hi Albert, Thanks, sounds good. I?m not in a big rush, but PM or email me when the parts are available and we can discuss price, shipping etc. Looks like they will come off without too much hassle if the rivet heads are ground off when the engine is out.Best,John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Packardguy Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 what would this # indicate on a 48 Packard engine block G121714? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what would this # indicate on a 48 Packard engine block G121714? </div></div>Well, ?G? would be the correct letter for 1948, but the ?1? would indicate a 6 cyl (mostly domestic taxi cabs & export sedans). A Standard or Deluxe 8 would be G2xxxxx, a Super G4xxxxx and the Custom a G6xxxxx engine designation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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