Fading Brakes, 1950 Standard Eight

[Guest CaptainBristol]

I own a 23rd Series Packard that is having brake problems. I have recently replaced pretty much the entire system with new or rebuilt equipment: master cylinder, brake lines, wheel cylinders, brake shoes and brake drums. The brakes work well when they are applied intermittently and they grab quite well in a panic stop. 97% of the time the brakes are fine. However, they fade badly when I travel down a steep hill. On a recent trip down a steepish, one-mile grade, I had almost no brakes when I reached the bottom.

My mechanic tells me this is because my drums are overheating and therefore are expanding too much. He says they are overheating because the modern materials used to line the drums do not contain asbestos and that the modern replacement material is inferior. His solution is to try to find old asbestos stock.

I have no problem with his solution, but am wondering if it has now become impossible to get the asbestos parts he recommends. Therefore I wonder if other Packard owners have discovered other ways of dealing with such a problem.

Thanks for your assistance,

Mark in Alaska

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I found asbestos linings at 'Dallas Brake and Clutch' in Dallas, Texas.

They still use them a lot in bigrig trucks.

[Guest]

PLEASE SLOW DOWN !

As other posters have noted, your description is NOT of a malfuction - it is typical of older cars, whose brake systems were not designed to handle the speeds and driving conditions of today.

Brake fade is HEAT - the energy you are trying to lose, that came from getting your car to the point where you are now trying to slow or stop it. Different lining materials wont change the limitations of drum type brakes - they simply cant lose heat as fast as modern "disc" type brakes. Yes, if you found an old style "soft" lining, you would get much more "responsive" or "grabby" brakes, more like the car when it was new. Modern lining materials are typically "harder", so you have to press harder on the pedal to get the same result. But that's just it..you DO get the same result...you have to absorb the same amount of energy, meaning, you get the same amount of heat, meaning, as the others note, the brake drums expand.

So again SLOW DOWN ! Treat your car for what it is - a rolling historical example of an era of auto tech. Dont ask it to do what its designers never contimplated. Sure, you COULD in theory install MUCH larger brake drums, with a powerful forced air brake cooling system, and/or go to disc brakes, but what is the point ? You have your car because you like old cars ! Accept them for what they are - interesting examples of automotive history.

(tried to "post" this earlier - hope I dont screw up and make "duplicate" posts)

[Guest Randy Berger]

I had the same problem after installing new shoes on my 56. I thought I was going to hit a new mercdes going down a steep hill with a red light at bottom. It turned out that I had the brakes adjusted too tight.

I readjusted them when I got home and road-tested them several times. They work fine now. If you have the feeler-gauge slot in the drums, use it to get a good adjustment.

YFAM, Randy Berger <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[Twitch]

I worked for the publisher of Road & Track and Car Life years ago and I read them beforehand since I was about 14 years old. The main recurring thing about American and foreign cars without disc brakes was fade. Pure and simple it was the drums and shoes that caused it. Fade was always a product of high speed driving such as on race tracks and spirited road driving.

This downhill section brings out the worst in drums. Even Discs get hot with heavy use but cool faster. I have noted that on highways with long downhill sections warning signs are posting to keep truck drivers aware to take it easy and cars too for that matter. The only thing you might do is down shift to 2nd if your tranny is in good shape and there's no danger of holding up folks behind you.

PS. Is your car a 1949 or 1950 model? My serial # is 40046

[Guest BigKev]

This is why old-school hot rodders drilled holes (like swiss-cheese) in the backing plates to help get some air flow to dissipate the heat from the shoes and drums.

[Guest CaptainBristol]

My sincere thanks to everyone who replied to my query. Based on your advice I will slow down through engine braking to keep my drums cooler while descending steep hills. I have not done so in the past due to ignorance and my reluctance to put stress on my transmission.

I first noticed the fading problem when I descended a steepish hill that was no more than 300 feet long. I went from a dead stop at the top of the fill and nudged her forward in 1st gear before I depressed both clutch and brake pedal. I then rode the brake to the bottom. By the time I reached the bottom, the brake pedal was almost all the way to the floor. I did drive more defensively after that, but did not employ engine braking all that much. My experience a few weeks later on the mile-long hill was an eye-opener.

To be on the safe side I will also attempt to replace the modern brake linings with the older ones recommended by my mechanic. Additionally, I will check to see of the brake adjustments are too tight.

Lastly, I am reasonably certain the car was manufactured in 1950. The VIN is 2392-5-37594.

Thanks again,

Mark in Alaska

[Guest CaptainBristol]

Rick L.:

I tried to find a "Dallas Brake and Clutch" in the Dallas phone directory, but was unsuccessful. I did find a "Brake & Clutch Service Company" in Dallas, and I called them on May 31. The man I spoke with reported he had no asbestos brake linings. He said the only asbestos he had available was clutch material.

--Mark in Alaska

[Fierce Sparrow]

HEY CAPTAIN FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY WATCH OUT FOR BH AND HIS KIND

I got so mad when I saw that "post" about you should use rivets and/or asbestos brake linings, I had a fit, and used the "search" feature to look up this guys's posts. He has buddies who pull the same stunts he does - some of them are a "rojo" and a "53 Packard".

These guys have NO regard for your safety, and WILL type in nonsence just for the fun of screwing a legit car operator up. They also brag they have an "insider" in AACA who gets rid of people who disagree with them.

The other posters in here who told you to slow down were right. Drum brakes are o.k. for what they were designed to do. Talk about getting asbestos and/or rivets to reduce brake fade on drum brake cars is DANGEROUS NONSENCE.

No modern auto manufacturer would dare use drum brakes on the front wheels today(where the major portion of the braking action takes place). Too dangerous for today's driving speeds and conditions. Because of the phenomena of brake fade.

Nothing you can do to change the laws of heat transfer. Your Packard was a great car for its day, with no better or worse brakes than other cars of the same weight and era. It did what its designers meant for it to do well, which was to meet the customer's driving of that day.

Do you see that crowd I noted above writing to all the world's auto manufacturers and telling them to save money and go back to drum brakes and use rivets and or asbestos? Do your own "search" on these guys and find out their views on connecting rods. Makes you want to cry. These guys are worse than just ordinary nut cases - they are "crazy mean" and just dont care if they get you KILLED.

You go have your brakes re lined at any good brake shop. Tell them what year car it is going on, and they will, if they know what they are doing, try and get you the softest lining they can. The guy who THINKS Packards of your car's era had big brakes with lots of swept lining area is WRONG. ALL cars of that era were horribly under-braked by today's standards. Just the nature of drum brakes.

Packard didnt make brakes. They bought the brakes from the companies that did that as a specialty. Engineers did what they were supposed to do - figure out the weight of the car, and supply brakes that made sense for that era's driving conditions.

Softer linings will make your car's brakes SEEM more responsive, but will make NO DIFFERENCE in the brake fade issue. If you wind up with a "harder" lining, you will need a little more pedal effort to accomplish the same stopping effort, but the amount of energy the drums have to disipate is the SAME.

That gang of loud mouths that dont care about real car fans ought to be ashamed of themselves. This is a REAL safety issue for all of us. I like Packard grills. I DONT WANT YOURS stuck in the back of my truck!

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The phone number for 'Dallas Brake and Clutch' is 214-741-4953

Address is: 3601 Main St. Dallas, Tx. 75226

It was only about 3 years ago that I got brake shoes, for my '37, relined there, so they should still be there.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Looks like ol' Pete has been reincarnated as a Sparrow this time. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BillP]

Also, make sure the brake fluid is FRESH out of a new, 12 ounce can, not a previously opened gallon can. It should meet SAE specification 7OR1 and 7OR3 and meet Federal Standard 116, which I think is DOT 4, but you should confirm.

A major part of your problem is boiling fluid, leading to a spongy, soft and low pedal. The above is the highest boiling point fluid available. All fluid is hygroscopic, meaning it has an affinity for water, even a little of which will drastically lower the boiling point, leading to these problems. You must use fresh fluid because of the humidity in the air.

DOT 5 silicone is good (DOW CORNING best of that lot) but for your problem, you want highest possible boiling point which is racing brake fluid. If you have silicone now, must complete flush.

Delco, Ford and Wagner/Lockheed had these last I looked.

Expanding drums unlikely. type of shoe material would make a big difference, try calling Hawk in Medina, Ohio, they make carbon brake disc pad mat'l, don't know about shoes but on my car they DO WORK.

[55Connie]

Lots of opinions here, so why not add to the pile.

My '55 Clipper does this too. It's endemic, part of the '50's car thing, like vacuum wipers, inadequate defrosters, and water in the brakes on rainy days. Wheee! There's no sport in driving modern cars.

'Slow down' mostly means anticipating lights and stop signs. I like to feel the V8 pull smartly (now that it runs good), you just have to remember that the traffic around you can stop, turn, and generally do any dumb driver trick much faster than you can. It's more like driving a big truck than a car, or as if you were towing.

Because shoes can't be arc'ed anymore (least in California) they have to make the linings thinner to make sure they'll fit in the drum. They don't always make full contact either. Sometimes a little fitting work on the shoe lining helps contact. If you buy shoes with asbestos linings from out of state, you might find they won't fit, then you can't get 'em sized.

Thinner shoes means riveted linings cut the lifespan by half. I've seen bonded come apart once or twice, but I've also seen shoe linings cracked and broken around rivets, because the contact surface and 'flange' is so small with modern lining thickness.

If you have a manual transmission, by all means use compression braking to help slow down. On a long, slow hill selecting low range should help too, just not as much.

Otherwise, just remember that you need to drive it the way people drove in the '50's, not like they do today.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

You should have said:

Drive like older, more intelligent, people did in the '50s.

Not like we, as a young Hotroders, did. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> LOL <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[WCraigH]

Well, there's always a disc brake conversion. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Twitch]

Craig- Shhh! the disc brake comment will draw every weenie on this site to harangue us about the virtues of 100% stock and how bad changing anything beyond the original factory tires is! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Hey BH - check with rojo - he says I am this hartman. Maybe hartman has invaded and all the new guys are Hartmans and now there is no hope for you have the "floor" to yourself!

Personally, if I was this Fierce Pierce guy, and I saw how you guys reacted to his above post where he is suggesting slowing down and driving the old Packard in keeping for what it was designed to do, I would never come back.

[Twitch]

Captainbristol- our cars are just a couple thousand numbers apart. Mine has 14mm spark plugs- a thing that allegedly came about at mid-year. Does yours have 10mm or 14mm? I'd guess 14.

[Guest Rojo22]

Captainbristol

Welcome to the Packard site. I apologize profusely for our, as you have aptly judged, "personality deficient" member(s) who masquerades as a sincere contributor to the site. It sounds like you already have the "nutfilter" and have your settings for it dead on. BH, and the like are genuinely interested and sincere with the advice. You cannot go wrong with these guys. I love the color on your car. Thanks for posting the picture.

[Guest Rojo22]

Fierce Sparrow

If you honestly promote that kind of attitude in the forums here, as a "new" poster, we could do without you too (Translated: Another attempt by hartman).

Take another blue pill, make the voices you are hearing speak one at a time, and for our sake, find another board to post in. We are interested in speaking to each other as adults.

[Guest]

I am happy that Captain "got the message" that he has to drive that old Packard within the limits of that era. That's great.

[Guest]

1) how do I get to that site?

2) is everyone who disagrees with you a PHartmann ?

[6219_Rules]

My only question is, an Edsel may be an antique, but is it a Classic? ;D

Unfortunately there is no way to keep someone who is intent on causing problems off of the forum without instigating procedures that would greatly hamper members of the clubs and this forum.

As an ex-administrator my best advice is to select the users name and IGNORE that individual.

Unless you like the petty, puerile BS; if that gives you a charge then by all means let it go. Personally, as long as I am in the background, it IS rather amusing. Right now I am a moderator of the CCCA site and a member of that club. We take this PFH individual seriously and ban him when he shows up.

By the way, good thread. I have a '56 car and had a '47 both had/have drum brakes. As long as the car is driven moderately and defensively, a well maintained drum system is perfectly adequate. No car, even with the sophisticated braking systems and passive restraint protections, should be driven as people drive them today. I have said many times, the best way to be safe is to rely on your driving skills not the car. And know the machine's and your own limitations. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Captain, that is one beautiful Packard you have there. I've often wondered if Alaska would be the perfect place to retire. How is the cost of living up there, aside from petrol prices of course?

[6219_Rules]

That is a good question, Brian. I would say that such information is possible but unlikely to have been compiled since he has to register anew each time. The best way to track him is through his MAC address or IP address (MAC tracking requires tracking software...its available but I don't have any).

If we could track the MAC which is what each PC has that makes it a unique identifier, we could possibly ban using that, but that would be up to Peter G as webmaster of the AACA Forum, if the software is capable of it.

I thought the classic approach wass amusing. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) how do I get to that site?

2) is everyone who disagrees with you a PHartmann ? </div></div>

1. Won?t do you any good to go there Petey, you?ll be banned on arrival

2. Yes, ?Phartman? has become a colloquialism synonymous with ?arrogant moron? on most all of the old car websites

[Guest]

Mcgrew - get over it. The initial "poster" had a question; from his responses, he now knows the obvious - exactly what you pointed out in your own "post" - (whem you werent making personal attacks) which is, we both dont want people to think they can go driving previous era cars at today's speeds, no matter WHAT some back yard non mechanic "heard" you can do to "improve" old style brake technology.

So it is over. The guy got the correct info.

[Guest Rojo22]

Randall

We apologize for the rude and pious behavior of the AntiqueEdsel. Your generous contributions over in the Cadillac forum have been incredible, and appreciated by a great many. Along with several of the regulars here, we are embarassed by the behavior of several "newly" created accounts that have rung with the tones of one PFH. I am glad the others have dealt with him swiftly. You are welcome to come on over anytime, we love hearing from you. Sorry for the circus, we just get really tired of the same old rhetoric from this guy(PFH).

[6219_Rules]

Rojo, I appreciate that very much, but I am not offended by his tirade. I have been berated by Peter under his own name several times in the past. He is just a sad individual who cannot operate without being abrasive. I enjoy this forum because aside from these characters, you all really talk the cars and how you enjoy them. Modified or original, V-8 or not. I wish the other forums could be like this.

Well by and large the CLC is but we still have our share of 'Hartmans' The name of the game is the marque and the cars. After that its all yak. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BillP]

You're a good man, Charlie Brown.

[Guest CaptainBristol]

My continued thanks to everyone who has posted more ideas about my fading brakes problem.

Several of you have asked me questions that I will answer here.

First, a bit of background: I have owned this car for 9 months after I bought it sight unseen on eBay for $4,550. Since then I have spent an additional ~$10K to get it mechanically sound. Aside from the brakes, I had several other systems overhauled. My intent is to drive the car any day I choose in the spring, summer and fall. I do not plan to put snow tires on the car because I have no desire to drive it on icy/snowy roads.

I want to confess that I am not the car's mechanic. A childhood injury left me with poor fine motor capabilities, so I learned long ago to that it is best for me to stay away from turning wrenches. I understand how the systems work, but I don't do the jobs myself. Fortunately I have found a good mechanic who specializes in old cars and owns a '47 Packard himself.

When my mechanic replaced the brake system he also (obviously) had to replace the brake fluid. On his advice we went with silicone fluid from a new, unopened container. The Packard stays close to sea level, so there is no situation regarding a lower boiling point due to altitude.

My mechanic had the spark plugs out of the car to do compression tests on the engine. The plugs looked good so he just cleaned them up and put them back in. Therefore I don't know if they are 10mm or 14mm plugs.

I love living in Alaska. My 37 years here (so far) have been full of many adventures and the future looks bright. However, Alaska is a very expensive place to live. It is common for retirees to sell out and move to the "Lower 48," where a fixed or reduced income will go farther.

All the best,

Mark in Alaska

[6219_Rules]

Thank you, Mark, for sharing that information with us. I sincerely hope you continue to enjoy that beautiful car. Sadly, I am on a fixed income, and while Colorado is expensive, it is not as expensive as Alaska. Pitty. I would love the climate. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

Petey, you are one sick puppy?please seek professional help. Ironic that you, who have been banned for good cause from every club forum on the ?net, should attack a member of CCCA.

Please just go away. It?s obvious that you don?t have a life?.please find one elsewhere.

[6219_Rules]

Well at least it was saved, Peter. Thank you for that! The site that I time shared went out of business and I lost it. George is a great truck, and he is rare, and a classic (note the small 'c') in the sense that his 250 cid inline 6 and three speed transmission (on the 'tree') are rather hard to find in this condition.

The drive train is simple and a venerable example of those used in Pre-WWII Chevys (but of lower cids of course). Dashes are easily replaceable. No need to worry about that. But thanks for being concerned. I appreciate any good will these days.

As to 'unconventional' ideas, you probably mean my admitted naivete about the 1947 Cadillac and what to do with it. Ah well. Such is life. Its now gone. However I am for keeping cars original as much as possible, unless they are to be crushed, then I see no reason the owner cannot modify them. To each his own. Ultimately I doubt it matters really. The point is often lost in the interminable redundancy of the argument.

Personally I think you should be allowed to frequent the AACA forums, and all the others for that matter. I must admit to being amused by your posts if others are not.

So what have you been doing with your Packard? Have you added any other cars to your collection?

And how many of the 25000 registered users on this forum actually are made up of your various nom de plumes? Inquiring minds want to know.

[6219_Rules]

I don't know about 'sophisticated', certainly 'somewhat educated' fits.

Let me state for the record how I feel about antique cars, old cars and the clubs' direction therein.

I think all Old/Antique/Classic/Brass Era cars (etc.) are all [color:"red"] best served by being kept original, if at all possible.

Clubs like the AACA, CCCA, Horseless Carriage Foundation and their ilk, are primarily focused on the rescue, preservation, and restoration of those cars for perpetuity.

Having said that, as Pete said, I think we all have to recognise that in order for a club to increase members (if that is important) then it is necessary to include young people and those people not 'into' the Classic or Brass Era cars. Mostly 1950s and the like...Muscle Cars. Divisions and the like to include Modified and Custom cars are the obvious direction.

For those clubs that do not find increased membership a manditory direction, then the tried and true method of pulling in people interested in these areas, times and goals must suffice.

There are clubs that do a little of it all, and others that modify. Personally I support the modified chapter of the CLC (Cadillac LaSalle Club) because as I see it, it is about enjoying that marque as well as preservation/resstoration. Do I want someone to customize a 1936 Cadillac V-12 Phaeton? No. But it must be left open to the owner and the car's shape. If a rusted hulk, better to use than destroy, however I still would prefer a full restoration if possible. Anyway, I try and keep my cars as original as possible. I did not do that 100% with the '47 and used modern materials in the upholstry. I am not doing that with the '56, She will be all original.

As for the cars themselves, I believe they are best served and represented by use. Driving, and driving daily if possible. Sometimes, as we have heard ad nauseam, the engineering simply cannot match the high rates of speed and poor driving of modern drivers. Safety is a concern. And I believe the responsibility of the owner. So it might be more reasonable to see a 1950s or 60s car used daily, with some reservations of course.

I love trailer queens for their sheer beauty, and would hope museums continue to get them. But a car is a machine and it must run to be 'healthy'. Plus they were never meant to survive forever so no matter what you do, they will wear. So how much more of impact will you get seeing a 1934 Bugatti Royal rolling down the main street of your home town than locked up in a building somewhere? At least that is the ideal.

Basically this is a hobby, at least for most of us. If it is your job/career then it is different, but for the regular hobbyist it is meant to be fun, educational and challenging. Fun is the word. Fun. When it ceases to be FUN, then it is a burden. And for as much as I love old/antique/Classic etc. cars, they are only cars. A thing that changed our lives to be sure, and history, but a machine nontheless. They are changing and in 100 years, our cars will be as out moded as the chariot (an equally important engineering milestone).

On safety: there are passive restraint systems and invasive systems (air bags). But to rely on your car to be safe or to keep you safe is ludicrous. Size, equipment, materials....its all secondary to the driver's ability and concentration. The driver is the first and only line to safety on the road. Drive defensively, use common sense, and do not exceed the conditions of the road, environment, or the car. That means driving at or below the speed limit, especially under less than perfect conditions. It means being polite, and allowing others right of way even when you may not feel they deserve it. It means being cautious.

If you want to drive hard, fast and macho camatcho...then join the SCCA and do it on a track.

There are simply too many cars on the road (increasing every year) with drivers that are poor to incompetant, to join their league and drive like you own the road. If we all drove defensively and courteously, it would still leave a percentage or two that we cannot control like mechanical failure or so called acts of god (like the bridge 'I' beam falling and crushing a couple in their SUV on I-70 west of Denver).

I have other ideas but that basically spells it out. If any of this is odd or bizarre then I accept that. It is, after all, only my opinion. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I hope I have not insulted anyone. That is not my intention.

Peter, I do appreciate your points and invitation. Can you post a picture or two of your Packard - especially the interior, as I love interiors. Thanks.

[6219_Rules]

You have me on that, Brian. Yes, the subject was taken up and the decision made to remove him. The CCCA still holds that opinion, as far as I know. It was a decision based on the private ownership of the forum over the right of the individual to say what he wants to say over the wishes of the owners.

I am sure anyone at the AACA would be happy to explain why. I supported the action. And as you can see just how pointless it was, and still is. I believe the best option is to use the IGNORE feature.

But the main fear was the effect it would have on new visitors to the forum and long term members who were tired of the haranging.

As of this post, I am not with the AACA, just the CCCA as a moderator. I check to be sure posts are in the right place. Its been quiet there. I have no powers elsewhere. Ultimately, the whole thing soured my enjoyment in the club. Since I am basically homebound (I can go out but usually choose not to), I relied on the forums for my contact with others who love old cars. While the members here do not make up the majority of the those in any club, AACA, CCCA or what have you, they do in so far as I am concerned. I just decided it was not worth the anxiety to police these people. I like to read stories about cars and how people restore/repair/maintain and enjoy them. But I must admit, such posts as those between Reatta man and Dave'@'Moon, are interesting and amusing.

I really believe if we all took a long, slow breath and just left PFH alone, it would remedy itself. Or IGNORE him and his many personnas. Why rise to the bait? Unless it amuses in some way.

I guess I am feeling a 'live and let live' attitude for the moment. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest BillP]

And of course, Love Packards is yet another P.F.Hartmann/Antique Edsel/ducktape/Packard Buff/Lake Powell/Packard Twelve/ad infinitum face on the same old rag doll.

"I have a pretty good idea who Edsel is and where his shop is." What a bizarre fantasy, unless it's just more of the same old lying horsesh!t, in my opinion.

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And of course, Love Packards is yet another P.F.Hartmann/Antique Edsel/ducktape/Packard Buff/Lake Powell/Packard Twelve/ad infinitum face on the same old rag doll.

"I have a pretty good idea who Edsel is and where his shop is." What a bizarre fantasy, unless it's just more of the same old lying horsesh!t. </div></div>

Yep Bill, could be too many exhaust fumes or just plain ol? dementia. Either way, looks like he (and all his "Peteys") are ready for the Rubber Room. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Twitch]

You comments about dave2moon, uncle remus and a couple othes on the old rants and raves thread are valid. it made them change the name to miscellaneous chat since every topic was hijacked by these goofs and immediately switched into some dogmatic dirge about politics. Every topic. They'd even do it in the Tech Questions area! Always a stupid aruement lamenting Kerry's loss and how evil republicans are and on and on, months after the election was over. These harangues would drone on after a simple mechanical question about a 37 Buick. It read as pure diluded mental illness spewing forth like so much puke of political hate and incoherent rambling from the psyche ward.

The flat out personal attacks have no place in a forum on a site like this and I'm quite surprised they were allowed for so long.

It's one thing to debate a topic related to the auto conglamoration from cars to clubs in a civil and respectful manner but some folks are just plains fruitcakes. There was recently a point taken seriously about cow farts/dung and an idea of using a catalytic converter-type device for cows' butts. This is hilarious that someone would then extoll the virtues of of such a device and endict the dairy industry and humans for simply having too many cows. At least it didn't turn political or religious.

Some of these goofy bastards ought ot be kicked out since all they want to do is pick fights and argue about things over which they haven't the remotest hope of controlling.

<img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Packard8]

?If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop

digging? ? Will Rogers.

Petey, the more you rant about your fantasy personas the deeper you get??????. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[bernardi]

Pete -

Well said!

Bernardi