Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Does anyone have experience with the V8 oil pump modification offered by Packard International? I am thinking of having this done with my oil pump as insurance against the notorious lifer problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RO Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Bill, of course this particular pump mod is performed by at least a couple of folks out there and is some times referred to as the oil pump "vacuum delete" mod wherein the vacuum portion of the pump is replaced by a plate. While it may be lengthy on discussions, if you do a search on this site under Packard, you can find some detail disussions wihtin the last two years about this oil pump mod. There are those that swear by it and those that stand by the original factory type if rebuilt properly. I am sure some other folks will come on here shortly and open up this discussion again. When I inquired to PI over a year and a half ago, I believe someone told me over a hundred of the modified pumps had been sold over quite a few years, so they have been doing that modification for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 I found one old thread that may be helpful:http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/showflat....amp;amp;fpart=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Depends on how much insurance u want. Check the input shaft to pump bore clearence. If more than .002 inch u will need Bob Allers fix i think he is PAC oriented. I am not familiar with the details of Bob Allers fix other than he CLAIMS to put the pump "back to factory specs". (NOTE QUOTATION marks). REsizing the shaft to bore clearence will probably get u 25K miles of use.FOR MORE insurance send it to PI AFTER u send it to Aller. PI makes it a HEAVY DUTY pump with a lower bushing BUT ELiMENATES the vacuum pump. NOW, if u really want some more insurance the Pressure relief valve port needs to be plugged. Oil passage to shaft needs to be carved inside of pump body. As far as i know noone offers any of these two operations.If u search thru the last 4 or 5 years of this Packard forum u will find more than enuf reading and info on the oil pump issue to keep u reading for at least 2 or 3 days straight.KEEP US posted on your progress.DISCLAIMER: This post is NOT a recommendation for any service providers or vendors WRT the oil pump issue. IT IS a statement of LIMITED knowledge i have about the service providers AND NOTE THAT THEY HAVE NEVER (AS IN N-E-V-E-R) (NO, not even once) offered to post in this forum regarding the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Should u decide to do BOTH the Aller AND PI service procedures it mite be best to coordinate between the two so that each is aware of what is comming to them in terms of the pump. OR better yet get both of them to co-ordinate between themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 Another question--is the oil pressure relief valve part of the oil pump assembly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 yes. do u have the pump removed from the car now for visual inspection??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 do u have any association with the Bill Kennedy Show Time that aired on WXYZ TV in Detroit from the late 50's thru the late 80's???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 No, never been on TV!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 No, the pump is still in the car. I have a pump out of a parts cars, but it is boxed and I am going to send off PI. I decided to just go with their mod for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 One other comment--the pump that is in the car is giving me high oil pressure--almost pegging the gauge on the dash. When I take it into the shop next week they are going to measure the pressure with an external meter, but I fear the pressure relief valve is stuck. Another reason to replace the pump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 ok. but be advised that PI does NOT rebuild the pump. ANY EXISTING wear in the pump will still be there when u get it back. Also, it is my understanding that PI does not return the vacuum pump with the "redesigned" pump. Which means that if u send the vacuum pump along in the box to them with the oil pump then will not get the vacuum pump returned to u. If i am wrong about any of this i sure wish someone would correct me. These statements are based on direct voice-to-voice contact i had with PI about 4 years ago.Keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 "Another reason to replace the pump! "Probably not. Its just sludged up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 WHAT is the history on the pump in your running car????? MAYBE it already has the PI or Aller fix and just got sludged up or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Good post Brian. Bottom line: Just throwing a pump in a box and say "fix it" MIGHT work, as in MAYBE. First u have to know what u are starting with and go from there. This oil pump issue has not been an issue for the last 50 years and mushroomed over the last 7 or 8 that i know of because there is someone out there offering a final solution.For the trailer queen people even an NOS pump would be just fine. They were good for about 25K to 35K miles (see the PI site write-up). BUT for the rest of us that actualy drive these cars 5K to 15K miles per year we do not want to have to crawl under there to "re-spec" or redesign the pump every 7 years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Yes, and I think the higher vacuum provided by the oil pump Vacuum pump is needed to drive the windshield wiper motor efficently, unless you are going to convert it to an electric motor system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Furthermore: Depending on factory production type gauges, especial electric factory gauges is folley. They are POOREST of quality and UNreliable. I don't care what car company issued them. If its production then its garbage. PERIOD.Even if the factory dash gauge IS correct then your problem of excessive oil pressure could be due to sludge OR someone has plugged the pressure relief valve port IN AN UNappropriate manner.If the gauge is showing excessive pressure at WARM IDLE then i would greatly suspect a bad gauge or sending unit. Check it with a KNOWN mechanical gauge directly at the engine. If the pressure is excessive at say 2K rpm or higher then u have either sludge or the crafts of some shade tree mechanic lurking in the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 How do you "unsluge" it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 What I really mean is the only way to clean the sluge would be to drop the oil pan and remove the pump for cleaning externally--right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How do you "unsluge" it? </div></div>Bill,I?ve used DuPont motor flush, and also ATF or diesel fuel to ?de-sludge? engines. Add a quart to the crankcase of a warm engine and let it idle for 10 minutes or so (IMPORTANT? don?t run it under a load or at high RPM!) then pull the plug and let it drain for an hour or so, with the nose of the car down via the TL. Refill with fresh oil & new filter and drive it for a hundred miles or so, then drain that oil thoroughly. Refill with fresh oil & filter and you should be good to go.Checking the oil pressure is pretty easy, just remove the sender on the rear of the passenger side and check with a good mechanical gauge (I believe it uses a standard 1/8 inch NPT thread). On my ?54, I installed a mechanical gauge via a ?Tee? fitting on the side of the block where the line to the filter exits?..I don?t trust idiot lights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 Great--thanks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 It's not necessary to remove sender. There is another plug next to sender that can be removed. That's where I have my under dash gauge connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 FIRST try adding about a pint of lacquer thinner to the engine oil. Run the engine under normal lite duty operation (under 45 mph) for 200-300 miles. The DEsludging kits and other fast acting or direct force methods could loosen alot of sludge real fast and cause other problems in other areas of the engine if the engine has alot of sludge. the lacquer thinner will slowly disolve any varnish in the Pressure relief valve bore. However if it is really excessive then there is no other safe method than disassembly. DO THE EZ things first!!!!!! Check the pressure with a known gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted February 20, 2005 Author Share Posted February 20, 2005 Does your underdash gauge read very differently from the factory gauge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 My '56 Clipper didn't have a factory gauge, just a Light, with switch sender. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />The underdash gauge reads about 40 to 50. I don't know how accurate it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 i have an Executive therefore its only a lite. I have all to often ran into factory gauges that lie. My 88 ford ranger is currently one that does.Amplification: The interior MECHANICAL gauges, even the good quality aftermarket brands should ONLY be used for interem diagnostics for NO MORE than 10K miles or so. The plumbing supplied with mechanical gauges is NOT good enuf for permanant application and WILL spring leaks due to vibration and chaffing. Once the problem has been solved replace the mechanical interiro gauge with a medium or higher quality electric gauge. Electric gauges are slow and not real accurate AND can be subject to false readings if there are other electrical malodies in the car causing feed backs.I currently use an electric SunPro oil pressure gauge (and the factory lite) AND a mechanical gauge MOUNTED directly at the oil filter which is the easiest place to tap for oil pressure and thats where my electric sending unit is tapped too. The oil filter is the FURTHEST point away from the oil pump and is a good place for tapping pressure as well as real ez to get to.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe kastellic Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Brain, I was doing some reading on the oil pump issue and in a former post # 216166, you mention that you have in your Packard library a Chrysler engeering report on the 56 Packards, could you tell me what the report contained, or could you post a copy of that report on the forum? thanks again Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe kastellic Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Brain, thanks for the infomation, and if you remember to bring it to Warren this summer I would really enjoy looking at it, BTW does the Packard musem have any information on the V8 cars? and do they let you reasearch what they have? thanks Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe kastellic Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Brain, thanks again for answering my question , and thanks to the forum I always learn some thing new about the cars,the co. and the persons that make them great!!! Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 what's the verdict on this issue???? did u have the pump worked on???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 I sent the pump off to PI and they inspected it (told me that it had virtually no wear) and modified it per the previous discussion. I talked to the mechanic while he was modifing the pump and he seems both knowledeable and helpful. I got it back in about 1 week including transit to and from California!The mod looks good and I intend to put it in the car next week. The bottom plate is very thick--did not measure it but I'm guessing 5/8" or more.There is one other thing I am considering.If you look at Craig's website he made mention on the page about the oil pump project to: "what I believe might really "band-aid" the problem is an external oil pressure saver, such as the one made by Canton Racing Products. I intend to try it and we'll see!"I looked at these products and am very intriqued--this could be a real belt & suspenders approach.I am personnally quite paranoid about the lifter noise problem. My engine has 52,000 miles on it and is very quiet--and I want to keep it that way. Pulling a 1,000 pound engine is not something I want to do!!!! Also, because I plan to use it from an extended drive arross the USA, I want an overengineered solution and that may be a good investment to get added insurance on the lubrication system.I do not know if anyone has actually tried this on a Packard but this is a simple system that would seem to have no downside problems associated with it.I have ordered the elctric wipers to replace the vacuum unit, but they have not come yet. Of course with the PI pump that is even more important since will lose the oil pump vacuum system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 If there was no wear and u have the PI fix then u have about the most heavy duty application possible.Can u post a few pics of the PI modification please???A straight on pic of the bottom flat surface of the pump and one from the side.And maybe about a 45 degree downward shot of the area where the shaft enters the pump at the top.Since it was reported to u that there was very little wear on the pump then most likely it was replaced before the 52K miles were attained.Is there a deep recess where the shaft enters the pump??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 See attached Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 Had not thought much about this before today, but I guess I will have to plug the hole that the vacuum line from the oil pump went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 I think you will only need to plug the hole in block, where vacuum line went through. (Is that where you mean?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 That's the one I meant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Thanks for the pics of the pump. Looks like a good quality job. If u have a spare stock pump compare the length of the locating lug (the round cylindrical tube that the shaft passes thru) to the lug on your PI modified pump. I think u will find that PI cut about 1/8+ inch from the top of it. Not a problem, just a detail i suspicion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe kastellic Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Bill, do you know of any Packard vendors where I can purchase a NEW pump and then have it modified by PI ? thanks Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 why not let Aller (PAC) restore your pump to factory spec and then send it on to PI for the heavy duty mod?????? Just make sure that Aller (PAC) and PI coordinate with each other on your effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kennedy Posted March 27, 2005 Author Share Posted March 27, 2005 I know of no sources for new pumps. What you can do is buy one from a parts car and have it redone so your car is not down for an extended period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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